Hi again! Ok, my mattress that I’ve mentioned above was perfectly fine for 3 years. So, my question is it possible to recreate that fill / support but in better longer lasting materials. The info I have on the mattress is its almost 4 years old s&f but made by sealy. Tag say tropical oasis collection - cove haven. I remember it being a “plush” top. The other tag states that it’s 90% “latex foam” 8% polyurethane foam and 2% rayon/visil with wool. Model # 562264. I know models can change quite a bit from store to store but I’m saying all this because the mattress once felt great and I don’t even know if the support layer was more “like” Dunlop or talalay or a blend. Any suggestions or insight into how to replicate the mattress again but in better longer lasting materials? Thanks very much.
We actually live in gastonia and ended up driving to Raleigh to check out the organic mattress store there. We have not purchased yet but will be probably this week. My advice from my research is stay away from the S brands as most just are not made well when it comes to Latex. We are getting a Royal-Pedic it is pricey but sleep is just too important to me. We also looked at Savvy and another brand out of NY. Good luck wish there were some better stores in Charlotte but we were not pleased with what we visited.
Yes … you can re-create it but it will have to be through testing and “feel” on latex mattresses rather than through trying to match specs.
The S&F Cove haven is the same as the Sealy Beachside (and Stearns & Foster is owned by Sealy) and I managed to find the specs online which are …
Quilt - Top of Mattress
1 ounce Flame Guard Fiber
1 1/2 x 1/2" Convoluted SuperSoft SealyFoam
1/2" SuperSoft SealyFoam
Comfort Layers
1" SuperSoft SealyFoam
SpringFree Core
8.9" Luxury Latex
So you have 8.9 inches of lower cost/quality mostly synthetic Dunlop latex (and it would be a safe assumption that it was in the “firm” range somewhere) which they call “smart latex” and 3 " of polyfoam (probably soft) in the comfort layers of unknown density and ILD (softness firmness level). Because the comfort layers are completely unknown in terms of ILD it would be too complex and the materials would be too different to try to “match” them by specs … even if S&F gave out the comfort specs such as ILD which they don’t. The best you could “match” would be a guess about the better quality latex equivalent of 9" of firm synthetic latex with 3" of polyfoam on top but these are not specs that can be “matched” or "translated into other materials except by feel and memory.
Any material, including low quality polyfoam, can feel great for a while. The problem is it’s not durable enough to continue feeling great or at least the same over the long term.
So I personally would use PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and Personal preferences) as your “target” rather than how you remember the mattress felt when you first bought it. This will be much more accurate and you could end up with something better even than you remember.
As a “best guess” for testing I would probably use a Dunlop core of around 6" and a soft 3" Talalay comfort layer which probably be as close as you could get based on the limited information available but this is complete speculation and there isn’t really any way to know how close this may turn out to be when you sleep on it without testing something similar.
So yes … you could probably match the feel with longer lasting latex layers. It would have to be through testing and some guesswork though
You do realize that the forum software logs IP addresses?
So you get banned and choose to create a “fake customer” and first time poster who tries all the many latex options in Charlotte and none of them “please him” so he decides to drive a few hundred miles just to visit you and discovers that he actually “likes” the mattresses you sell and is willing to pay thousands more for a Royal-Pedic and at the same time gives some of the other brands you carry a little “plug”.
And this from a business owner that talks about ethics?
Did a little mattress surgery tonight (it felt very weird dissecting a 3.5 year old “luxury” mattress)… Actually “guts” are 7" firmer synthetic latex, 1.5" of softer synthetic latex and I believe your quilt specs look to be accurate. The 1.5 was glued but I think I did a pretty good job of removing it… Removing the quilt top I can visually see a slight dip at the butt/hip regions ON TOP OF 1.5" latex and after removing this soft layer I can’t really see compression in the 7" layer. So, you’re probably guessing where I’m headed. I think I may purchase one 3" talalay 24-28 ILD topper and a new zipper cover. This way if the 7" firm layer is still suspect to compression… I’ll order a new support layer. It was recommended by sleepez to get their basic 4 way cover so there is little material to interfere with the latex. I can also return topper if I get it wrong there too. Thoughts?
It seems that my “model matching” wasn’t quite accurate and you have an extra layer of latex but it doesn’t really matter because the issue of too much lower density/quality polyfoam is the same in all the S&F latex line.
I think this is a great idea … and could be a pathway to a “new” mattress that was much like your old one except the latex layers will last longer than the polyfoam. The foam may also have softened under your heavier areas (foam softening doesn’t always lead to impressions) but this would be a great step and the odds are good that it will work out well if you make the best choice of a topper and make sure that the cover is the right thickness to enclose all the layers you plan to add or keep.
Way to go … and I’m looking forward to hearing about the outcome
I’m back. I ended up purchasing a 3" blended talalay topper from Sleep EZ with their stretch cover. My back is 30% better if I had to say exactly. I’ve been sleeping on the bed for about 3 weeks. My questions kind sir:
Is 3 weeks a long enough run for my body to get adjusted to new “feel” or alignment?
If you say give it a little more time, the questions below can wait…but here goes:
I went with blended talalay due to durability but perhaps should have stuck with my guns on 100% talalay because I think pressure points are still being affected because I’m a side sleeper. Should I swap to 100% talalay because pressure points are still there somewhat…should I add another layer under the 3" topper…perhaps a medium ILD rated 2" or 3" topper. So total make up would be soft 3" blended talalay (have now) or 100% talalay with 2" or 3" medium ILD rated (talalay or blended) and then my 7" synthetic latex core by S&F.
This will depend on a few factors and on how different the new sleeping surface is from what your body is used to but in most cases (but not all) 3 weeks would be enough yes.
Both 100% natural talalay and blended talalay come in softer and firmer versions and what you feel would have less to do with which type of latex your are using than it would with the ILD (softness/firmness) of the layer you purchased. Blended will generally be a little more pressure relieving than the all natural because it is less dense and you will sink into it slightly more than the equivalent all natural layer but in a top layer they will be very similar and the ILD would be the thing to pay the most attention to. Do you know the ILD that you purchased?
Both blended and all natural talalay are 100% talalay (talalay is one of two main methods of producing latex) but again how it feels for you would have more to do with ILD than whether it was blended or all natural. What your next step could be would depend on the ILD of what you ordered so it could provide a reference point for any further softness or thickness you would need for good pressure relief. This could involve a softer 3" layer or some extra thickness (either in the cover or outside of it) using latex, wool, or other soft materials.
The ILD of the layer you purchased though would be important information to know to decide on what the next step may be.
Sorry for the late response…was checking back often looking for your reply and didn’t notice the “2nd” page at the bottom. I ordered the 3" soft topper in blended talalay which is supposed to be rated at 22-24 ILD according to Sleep EZ.
As for the cover…yes, i ordered the basic stretch cover which has no extra comfort layer to itself really. You may be onto something with the cover.
Looks like my choices are wait a little bit longer because my back is “better” just not 100%…
-Add another layer of latex under my ILD rated 22-24 topper…perhaps something with a higher ILD which according to sleep ez is 30-32 ILD. I’m sure my S&F synthetic core is rated fairly high with regards to ILD…you can physically feel the “firmness”
-Or, add something on top of my topper or cover…wool, etc…
I’m willing to test out and pay the shipping, etc. This is very important and hopefully my ILD note above helps you…help me
One more thing…if I go through all the motions and do end up replacing my 7" synthetic S&f core…what are the advantages with going with a full 7" core vs. incrementally using 3" and 2" toppers? Sleep EZ says I can return the toppers (vs. their components) because they are covered with material and they are easier to physically return due to smaller thickness.
So, are a a bunch of 3" and 2" toppers stacked up ok…if I have to go this route?
The soft 22-24 ILD latex is the softest they normally carry which means that if you need something softer they would need to custom order it (such as 19 ILD). Since softness and thickness work together to produce the softness of the comfort layers … adding a thin layer of softer material (such as soft latex, memory foam, or wool) can also provide some fine tuning that will soften the comfort layers a little more and isolate you a little better from the firmness of the support core.
Adding a medium layer in between the support core and the softer latex on top would also lead to a little more softness as well because you would feel more of the transition layer under the comfort layer than the firmer support core.
Both methods (adding a transition layer or adding a thin soft layer on top) would result in a softer feel. Which one you choose would depend on how much room there is inside your cover (for a transition layer) and knowing more specifically what you were trying to accomplish. It would also depend on height/weight and sleeping position considerations. Because of your wife’s height and weight … for her I would probably be tempted to add a thin softer top layer (depending on how she feels about the current configuration) but I don’t know her normal sleeping position and this would make a difference. I don’t know your height/weight or sleeping positions (or for that matter the ILD of the core layer but it’s probably safe to assume this is firm) and this would make a difference in which would work best for you.
The stretch knit cover will allow the softness of the latex to come through more than a quilted cover. Neither have a comfort layer as part of the cover but the wool quilting will tend to create a slightly firmer feel than the unquilted cover (the wool reduces how much the latex compresses slightly even though it has its own advantages).
If you are still noticing changes and improvement then it may be worth waiting a little longer. If the changes and improvement happened earlier on and seems to have stabilized … then waiting may not be so important.
I doubt this will be necessary if you get the layering above the latex core right but if you do there is little difference in terms of quality or durability between multiple layers and a single core if the material is the same.
The main advantage of more complex layering is in the ability do customize the mattress more in terms of performance and feel. For example a core layer that has a 3" firm layer under a 3" medium layer (with a softer layer on top) will perform differently than either a 6" firm or 6" medium layer by itself with the same soft layer on top. This allows for more flexibility both in terms of customizing a mattress if necessary and also allows specific layers to be exchanged ot fine tune the mattress. so it’s not better or worse as much as it’s more flexible which is some cases may be an advantage. If someone’s perfect mattress was 6" of firm with 3" of soft on top then it wouldn’t have any benefit but if the firm base was too firm and the medium was too soft then firm under medium may be “perfect”.
As an aside … most latex cores come in a 6" thickness (or close to this). There are a few that are 7" but they are much less common.
My weight is 188 lbs at 6 ft tall with athletic build and the wife is 5 ft 7 ins and weighs 130 with athletic build. I’m 110% side sleeper and she is mainly side with some stomach.
I didn’t know there was lower ILD latex…hmmmm. My goal is to relieve pressure on my shoulders from side sleeping and get the lower back in better alignment so I don’t wake up stiff and hurting. My stretch cover is the 10,000 series from sleep ez which is basically 10 inch. However, I know for sure another 1.5 in topper would fit and technically sleep ez said they could modify the cover if need be.
I think I’ll give the mattress another week and then see if you recommend going over or under my current topper.
That’s probably a good idea and in the week if you can take some mental notes about the specifics of what you like and what you want to change it would be helpful. The more specific you can be the easier it is to identify any changes that may be necessary. My guess is that most of what you would be dealing with is pressure relief issues and “allowing” the wider lighter shoulders and upper body to sink in more.
Latex comes in a range from a low of about 14 ILD to a high of mid 40’s or so (which is used for support layers not for the comfort layers). Many manufacturers tend towards “soft” ILD’s in the range of 22 - 24 or so because even with latex … softer layers are more subject to mechanical wear and tear (they compress more with weight) than with firmer layers even though they would still be more durable in a similar softness than other types of foam. Comfort layers usually range from 14 to 32 or so because firmer than this would be uncomfortable for many people (although there are some types of layering where firmer comfort layers may be desirable) but the normal “soft” range that is used is around 19 - 24. Many manufacturers tend towards slightly firmer because it is a “safer” construction.
Thanks for the kind words!
It’s not difficult to seem like a “genius” when you have talked with dozens of people who know a lot more than you do, have been making mattresses for decades (or are part of multi generational mattress families), have spent thousands of hours on the phone with you sharing their knowledge and insights, and you take lots and lots of notes (and add a few thousand hours more of research and mattress testing).
There are some amazing people in the industry who are very generous with their knowledge that most people would never hear about in all the noise and confusion of mass market advertising. It’s been great to be able to share some of what they have taught me and I have been able to learn with so many others
It’s been a few more days and the results are as follows:
My lower back has improved a little more. If I was at 30% better before… I’m closer to 60% now. We are getting there.
However, sidesleeping is a little difficult. Both hands have actually gone numb a couple of times. I can’t sleep on my side naturally very easy as because I now have to “open” my chest so that my shoulders displace better on the mattress.
So with that info and our weights, heights, sleeping position info from above. What do you think? I need something with a lower ILD rating perhaps above my already “soft” latex topper or custom order a 19 and swap out what I have…or add the next firm level of latex which is 30-32. All this while trying not to disturb the lower back which is getting better.
Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. Again, I thank you from the bottom of my aching back and pinched shoulders now
There are a couple of variables and unknowns at work here so I’ll share some thoughts and ask a few questions that may help nail down the next step.
It seems to me that the thickness of the comfort layer is likely the issue because you have a 3" layer of soft latex over a core layer of firmer latex and it seems likely to me that you are “going through” the top layer and “hitting” the firmer layer below. Normally the shoulders are both wider and lighter than the pelvis so they need enough thickness to sink in far enough until the torso comes into contact with the mattress and takes up the weight.
If you were to only go softer and not thicker and you are already going through the 3" latex top layer … you may actually feel the firmer layer below even more (you will “go through” it more easily).
So I have a couple of questions …
Does it feel like you are coming into contact with a firm layer below (you can “feel” the transition from soft to firm on your side especially)?
Is the overall “softness” of the comfort layer OK for you in terms of its “feel” and it’s just that the shoulders are sort of “bottoming out” on the layer below?
If you are OK with the overall softness but just need a little extra thickness to sink into … then a middle transition layer would work well (2-3"). This would be a less risky way to go in terms of alignment because the upper layers would be firmer. This is also assuming that the latex core is quite firm (which is very likely)
If on the other hand you want more surface softness and don’t just want more thickness to sink into (adjusting both the softness and the thickness of the surface layers) … then a couple of inches of softer latex on top would be the way I would go. This would be a little “riskier” because you would have 5" of soft latex on top which would have more risk of creating an alignment issue (sinking in too far with the hips/pelvis relative to the shoulders). It would be closer to the softness of the original foam (which was probably softer) and more “cushy” but a more risky construction.
A third option would be something like the Seven Comforts topper. My guess would be that it could work well. Being shredded (actually they are “microrods”) … it will allow the more pointy shoulders to go through it (displacing the latex to some degree) but at the same time will take up weight when the greater surface area of the torso comes into contact with it and it will also hold up the wider surface area of the hips/pelvis well. A design like this can be a good way to add softness/thickness and more localized relief and can provide a good combination of extra thickness and pressure relief, but with less risk to alignment.
They used to have these on Amazon for less but at the moment only the queen size is available there. but even at their main site they are very good value IMO.
Edit: see post #52 here first if you are considering ordering this topper.
Thank you for helping continue my search for a restful nights sleep.
Honestly, I think I am bottoming out. The top 3" layer of “soft” seems to be soft enough in and of itself. That’s why we were hoping to get away with it on top of the firm latex core originally. I’m going to hold onto the other ideas you mentioned after my next round of testing which brings me to my next question:
For the middle transition layer…what are you thinking? 2-3" of custom very soft latex (19ILD) or another soft (22-24 ILD) or a firm 30-32ILD?
Thanks so much yet again for your continued assistance. Do you have a monetary donation account set up by the way?
If the softness of the layer itself seems to be good for you … then I would consider a middle transition layer in the range of 2-3" of “medium” latex. This will make the overall feel of the mattress a little softer than if you have a firmer layer underneath the soft latex.
An additional layer of soft latex on top will also prevent “bottoming out” on the firmer layer below it but would carry more risk of alignment issues (there would be more soft foam for the heavier parts of your body to sink into relatively more than the lighter parts).
The topper I mentioned would also be a good choice because it can add to the thickness and softness of the upper layers and would also isolate you more from the firmer support layers but would have less risk than a solid layer of softer latex on top. You would sink into it more evenly.
Your “critical zone” (the thickness of soft foam that you need to “allow” your shoulders to sink in far enough) is likely more than 3" (this would be typical of higher weights and more athletic builds where the upper body is more muscular and the shoulders are wider) which is why 3" is probably not quite enough … even though the softness of the layer itself is probably OK.
For a middle transition layer I would use an ILD which is in the “medium” range in between the firmness of the deeper support layer()which is unknown but likely firm) and the softer comfort layers. This would mean in the range of 28 - 32 (which is generally considered medium).
If you went in the direction of a layer on top … I would use softer latex (in the range of 19 - 24 similar to what you have) so that the upper surface isn’t too firm (and this would not be my first choice for the reasons mentioned earlier).
So hopefully this will give you a sense of the differing effects of each different choice so you can “match” your different choices to the “symptoms” you are feeling.
There is a somewhat “hidden” paypal donation button here which I added because of several requests. I made it less visible so that the people on the site realize that donations are not in any way necessary … but a small donation is certainly appreciated for those who wish to do so
Just wanted to drop a line to say I’m healed. The 3" soft talalay blend (ILD listed above) over 3" medium talalay blend over my orginal 7" firm stearns and foster synthetic core is working thanks to you. Your remarkable and straight forward advice I will not forget. Thank you for what you do.
You are a lot more forgiving than I. My Sealy Beachside is pounded after 3 years. Yes I am tempted to dissect it, but I’m more tempted to stuff it sideways up Sealy’s you know what. I figure I’ll make them warranty it again and then move on. Last warranty went quick and easy but this one is going much slower.
