Hi,
First, thank you for providing so much great information.
Secondly, curse you for providing so much great information. My head hurts.
I’ve read most of the articles on this site, and think I have a decent idea of what would be right for me. However since the choice is so specific to each person’s situation, I wanted to try and lay it all out to make sure I’m not making a mistake.
My wife and I are currently on an old Sleeping Beauty/Kingsdown Crown Marquis (innerspring/pillowtop). We are 5’5" ~145lbs and 5’0" ~120lbs and in our late 20’s. She is a side sleeper and could sleep on nothing but pillows and have no issues. I am a 75% back 25% side, but believe I would likely stay on my back if not for waking up with discomfort. I wake up every morning with either back or shoulder pain depending on whether I was on my back or side. I’ve experimented with pillow heights and positions, and that just moves the pain to a different area. It’s worth noting that I have an old back injury and shoulder (AC) arthritis exacerbating the problem. For pressure relief and support purposes, most info has led me to memory foam, and to a slightly lesser extent latex.
Since there don’t seem to be any great mattress places on Long Island (NY), we took a trip to Sleepy’s to try out the different tempurpedic mattresses to use as a point of reference. We both enjoyed the Cloud Luxe, at least as much as one could while laying in a mattress store for ~10 minutes.
I have been looking at the various alternatives to the Cloud Luxe, such as the Dreamfoam UD 13".
Your recommendation in the Statistics section of the site says lighter people should have “thinner and softer comfort layers and possibly softer or average support layers”. Certainly preference plays a role, but there is likely a threshold where you could say that it is unlikely to be supportive enough. So, am I asking for trouble by having 3" of 4lb gel foam over 2" of 5lb memory foam?
Any insight would be appreciated. I am leaning toward just getting a cloud-luxe-type mattress with a good return policy, and going with more of a cloud-supreme equivalent if my back pain continues.
It’s a good idea to have some good information before you start testing mattresses and have some very general ideas about what may be “right” for you but I would be careful with any preconceptions because your actual experience can sometimes be very different from what you think may work well “in theory”.
You may have seen this but some of the better options and possibilities I’m aware of in the Long Island area are listed in post #4 here. I would also make sure that you test any mattress you are seriously considering for more than 10 minutes and with memory foam which can change how it feels as it warms up I would spend even longer than with other types of mattresses. The testing guidelines in the tutorial post include good information about testing mattresses.
The tutorial post also includes a link to some of the better online memory foam retailers or manufacturers I’m aware of and many of these make or sell a mattress that uses the Cloud Luxe as a reference point. Post #9 here also has more information about the different ways that one mattress can “match” another one.
These are generic guidelines that are based on “theory” that are meant to help people understand some of the concepts involved in mattress design and matching a mattress to different body types, sleeping styles, and individual preferences but there are many variables and each person can be very different from the norm in one way or another so they are not useful as a specific suggestion and your own testing and experience is much more important than any “theory at a distance”. Memory foam is sensitive to temperature, humidity, and can also become softer with continuous pressure so it can change over the course of the night. With thicker layers of memory foam there is a greater risk that you can start the night off in good alignment but then as the memory foam softens over the course of the night it can allow the heavier parts of your body (the pelvis) to sink down too far which can lead to sleeping out of alignment which can result in back discomfort and pain in the morning. This is why it’s a good idea to have comfort layers that are “just enough” to relieve pressure in all your sleeping positions so that you don’t choose a mattress based on “showroom feel” alone and end up with a mattress that is too soft for your specific needs and preferences in terms of PPP. So you aren’t necessarily “asking for trouble” but thicker comfort layers of softer foam can be a little more risky for some people depending on your body type, weight distribution, and sleeping style.
I ended up ordering a Cool Luxe from Brooklyn Bedding over the (nearly) equivalent Dreamfoam UD 13". Their return policy seems to be truly no-risk, and the higher quality base foam & free latex pillows are nice too. It should arrive in about a week. I’ll update this thread after giving it a while for both the bed and I to adjust.
I think you made a great choice for good reasons (better quality materials and return policy) and I’m looking forward to your feedback when you receive it.
We set up the mattress last week (on a Structures by Malouf frame). After 5 nights now I think I can say that the concerns regarding the amount of memory foam were justified. Just like in the store, when I initially lie on it, it’s fine. After a few hours (on my back), I have significant pain in the mid-back from lack of support. My wife is normally a side sleeper but noticed when she spent a few hours on her back, had the same type of pain. While sleeping on her side she’s fine - which makes sense according to what I’ve read on your site regarding sleeping positions.
I think my next step is to make a concerted effort to spend 100% of the night on my side, and re-evaluate. It’s a little tough wearing a CPAP.
Simultaneously I’m going to be looking into the alternative mattresses offered by Brooklyn Bedding. They have two that are similar construction and presumably more supportive.
Cool Luxe (Current) - 3" 4lb Gel-Infused Memory Foam, 2.5" 5lb Memory Foam, 7.5" of 2.17lb BB HD Foam Core
Cool Supreme (compare to tempur-cloud supreme) - 1.5" 4lb Gel Memory Foam, 3" 5lb Memory Foam, 6.5" of 2.17lb BB HD Foam Core
Cool Symphony (compare to tempur-rhapsody) - 1" 4lb Gel Memory Foam, 3" 4lb Memory Foam, 8" 2.17lb BB HD Foam Core
BB rates the Supreme as medium-plush and the Symphony as medium-firm. I would be tempted to go with the Symphony myself, but may have to just go with a straight return as I’m not sure my wife would go for anything significantly firmer.
It’s not uncommon at all that thicker layers of softer memory foam can be great in one position (typically side sleeping) and not work as well in other sleeping positions.
While I would give it some time if possible (generally 2 weeks is the minimum I would suggest to make sure that you have had some chance to adjust to the new mattress) … I would also consider that mid back issues could also be a “pillow” issue rather than a mattress issue. If your pillow is thick and firm enough for side sleeping it could push your head forward when you are on your back and it’s not uncommon at all that a new mattress also needs a different pillow for best alignment of the upper body.
Update -
Using a lower pillow has mostly eliminated the mid-back pain I described. Thank you for that. I guess with this soft mattress the amount that the rest of my body sinks in necessitates a lower pillow.
I gave it an additional week after that (almost 100% back-sleeping position), and now am consistently waking with the same amount and type of lower back pain as I had with the old saggy innerspring.
Any insight as to which of the closest alternatives (Supreme or Symphony) might work best for someone in my shoes? (5’5 145lbs, prone to lower back pain from lack of support). I’m even wondering if latex would be a better option in terms of being supportive (for me) without feeling too firm (for my wife) and also having the option of comfort layer exchange.
Lower back issues are most commonly from comfort layers that are too thick and soft or support layers that are too soft (see post #2 here) which can lead to the pelvis sinking down too far relative to the other parts of the body but each person is unique and just like with any type of back issues there can be many causes for the same type of “symptom”. Any health professional will confirm that back issues can be amazingly complex and it can be difficult to accurately “diagnose” the source or underlying cause of any specific symptoms you are having. The type of material is more a matter of preference and any type of mattress can be made in a design that is suitable for some people in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) and not for others. In other words the design of the mattress is more important than the type of materials.
I would also think in terms of spinal alignment rather than support because both a soft and firm mattress can be a suitable choice if you are in good alignment in all your sleeping positions. In other words a “less supportive” mattress can be a good choice if all the parts of your body sink in evenly and you are in good alignment in all your sleeping positions (see post #6 here). A mattress that is either too supportive or not supportive enough under different parts of the body relative to the other parts of your body is when you can have alignment issues.
It seems to me that you would likely do best with a mattress that has thinner or firmer comfort layers which puts you closer to the firmer support layers but it’s always best to have these types of conversations with a knowledgeable and experienced manufacturer on the phone because they will know more about the specifics of their mattresses and how they compare and which one would be the “next best choice” with the highest odds of success based on their experience and on the “averages” of their customers than anyone else.
I spoke to Mario at Brooklyn Bedding and ended up ordering an Aloe Alexis with split firmness - Medium (level 6) for my side and Ultra Plush (level 8 ) for my wife’s side. He felt that the latex would “push back” better than memory foam to support my lower/mid back, and of course the medium level latex will be firmer overall than the Cool Luxe was. Wifey gets her softer surface, and we can still exchange the comfort layers for $75 if needed.
I’ll update after evaluating the latex. Fingers crossed.
I have my fingers crossed for you as well but as you mentioned the Alexis has good options available after a purchase if you need to do any fine tuning.
Congratulations once again on your new mattress and I’m looking forward to your feedback when you’ve received it
