Thanks Phoenix, you’ve been a great help, I’m sincerely thankful for all your advice.
So here’s my latest configuration:
6" ILD 36 Dunlop
3" ILD 25-29 Dunlop
2" ILD 22 Dunlop topper.
Does this look like a good start for my weight (270lbs) now?
Hi baddog,
I don’t have enough information or reference points to really be able to make a meaningful guess and there is no way to predict which layering you will do best with based on “theory” or by using a “formula” that can possibly be more accurate than your own careful testing or sleeping experience but you appear to be choosing layers that are a little softer than would be “typical” for your weight range based on “averages” or “theory” and I would tend to start with firmer layers than the ones you are considering. Assuming that the ILD ratings you are being given are accurate in the first place … I would probably avoid ILD’s that are less than about 28 in the top layer and then go progressively firmer as you go deeper after that.
I would always keep in mind though that personal experience always “trumps” theory.
Phoenix
So other than the ‘topper’ the rest would appear to be correct then Phoenix?
Hi baddog,
There is no “correct” based on any formula or theory and the only “correct” would be the combination of layers that is the best “match” for you in terms of PPP and a combination of layers that you sleep well on.
There is more about the different ways to choose a mattress (either locally or online) that is the most suitable “match” for your specific needs and preferences and how to identify and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for that are involved in each of them in post #2 here.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
I’m still hard at my mattress education. I think I have a fairly clear idea of what my needs are and the individual latex components best suited to me personally. I believe I’m coming close to an actual purchase.
I have a few questions Phoenix.
Do you have a preference between Dunlop latex produced by the newer ‘continuous pour’ method and the older ‘mold’ method of producing Dunlop latex? And if so why?
I’m looking at a ‘Pure Green™ Natural Latex’, Dunlop, which in another post you identified as most likely manufactured by Latexco. Would it be correct to presume that ‘Pure Green™ Natural Latex’ would manufactured using the ‘continuous pour’ method or would that be an incorrect assumption?
Also, is the term ‘100% Natural latex’ a meaningful title? Can synthetic petroleum based latex with various additives also be considered ‘natural’? I see some latex identified as being ‘Okeo Standard 100’ and ‘Eco-Institute’ certified. Are these certifications meaningful? Are there certain ‘terms’ I should be looking for to identify a quality Dunlop latex product?
Thank you so much Phoenix. I sincerely appreciate all your help.
Hi bddog,
My own personal preference leans towards Talalay (at least in terms of comfort layers) but this is strictly a preference issue and not a “better worse” issue and other people may have very different preferences than me. My daughter for example prefers the feel of Dunlop after testing both and that’s what she purchased and sleeps on. I haven’t done extensive side by side testing with continuous pour vs molded Dunlop but based on the testing I have done I don’t have a personal preference between them. In “theory” the continuous pour may be a little more consistent in terms of ILD variations across the surface but in practice this is unlikely to make a significant difference that most people would actually feel. The continuous pour is also available in lower ILD’s than you will usually find with molded Dunlop (the bottom of the 40% ILD range for Mountaintop continuous pour Dunlop for example would be the rough equivalent of the 25% ILD range for Talalay and would be very similar to the softest Talalay … see post #8 here). The continuous pour Dunlop has a “feel” that is somewhat in between Talalay and Dunlop but closer to Dunlop. Both are very high quality and durable materials and in terms of quality and durability they would be very closely comparable. I would treat the choice between them as a preference issue.
The Pure Green is molded Dunlop that is distributed by Latexco but they don’t manufacture it. It’s most likely made by Latex Green which is a very high quality product (Latexco also distributes latex from other companies and their 100% natural Dunlop is usually made by Latex Green). SleepOnLatex used to sell a synthetic/natural blend (80/20) that was continuous pour Dunlop that was made by Latexco in the US but they currently only sell the 100% natural molded Dunlop.
100% natural means that 100% of the rubber in the latex core is natural rubber (NR) vs synthetic rubber (SBR) but it doesn’t mean that 100% of the core itself is rubber because there are other substances that are needed to foam, cure, and manufacture the latex (see the first part of post #7 here).
No … it’s synthetic rubber not natural rubber. There is no specific standard that defines defines the percentage of natural rubber though that can be called “natural” so you will find that some blended cores are called “natural” latex (but not 100% natural) even though they contain some percentage of synthetic rubber. For example you will often find that the blended Talalay made by Talalay Global (previously Latex International) is called natural even though it’s only about 30% natural rubber and 70% synthetic rubber and their 100% natural Talalay is called “all natural” to differentiate it so many retailers confuse them and some will believe that their “natural” Talalay is actually 100% natural Talalay when it’s not so I would ask for the specifics of the blend rather than trusting the word “natural”. GOLS certified organic Dunlop latex would have at least 95% natural rubber content (and the rest would be the substances used to manufacture the latex) so it also uses 100% natural latex that is certified organic).
Oeko-Tex and Eco-Institut are both testing standards that test for harmful substances and VOC’s (see post #2 here). All the latex you are likely to encounter will have been tested by either one or the other though so I would consider any type or blend of latex as a very “safe” material. Eco-Institut also certifies whether a latex core is 100% natural latex but this is based on the declaration of the manufacturer.
The two main ways to differentiate latex are the type (Dunlop or Talalay) and the blend (the percentage of natural and synthetic rubber).
There is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here and there is more about Dunlop vs Talalay in post #7 here.
Phoenix
Thanks Phoenix that was extremely helpful. I’m getting very close now, hopefully this will be my last question.
Not sure if you know the answer to this Phoenix, but do you know the ‘manufacturer’ and ‘process method’ (continuous pour or mold method) and which of these two Dunlop cores might be ‘firmer/denser’.
Arizona Mattress:
6" Dunlop Core 36 ILD: (Greg stated a 40 ILD core of this Dunlop was available for a 10% premium).
SleeponLatex:
6" Dunlop 44 ILD Core:
https://sleeponlatex.com/products/natural-6-latex-mattress-core
Can I confidently compare their firmness solely by their listed ILD ratings (Arizona Mattress 40 ILD to SleeponLatex 44 ILD) and conclude that the 44 ILD from SleeponLatex would be definitely firmer/denser? It seems straightforward that the 44 ILD would be firmer than the 40 ILD but as these two products are from different retailers I’m unsure?
Thanks Phoenix.
Hi baddog,
If the ILD is correct then of course 44 ILD would be firmer than 40 or 36 ILD but I would keep in mind that ILD numbers are never exact with latex and in some cases ILD testing can vary depending on how the ILD is tested and the thickness of the core that is being tested. Dunlop latex cores are generally poured to density ranges rather than ILD and similar densities will have a similar firmness if the type and blend of latex is the same (see post #6 here for more about ILD ranges).
You can also see the ILD ranges relative to density for 100% natural latex made by Latex Green (which is most likely the Dunlop supplier in both cases) in post #2 here.
Phoenix
So I could purchase the 44 ILD Dunlop core from SleeponLatex believing it to be firmer than Arizona Premium Mattress core which is listed as 36 ILD when in fact I could be purchasing a softer, less dense layer of latex. Well that is pretty discouraging, but I expected that could indeed be the case.
Hi baddog,
The nature of latex is that it doesn’t come in exact ILD’s so it would depend on the relative density of the core you purchased. If you purchase a core that is in the extra firm range (39 - 44 ILD and about 90 kg/m3) then it would be firmer than a core that was in the firm range (34 - 38 ILD and about 85 kg/m3). It’s unlikely that you would notice much if any difference between different cores in the same firmness range … especially if they were under other layers.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
I just set up my first two components of my new latex mattress. I followed your recommendations and purchased 6" ILD 44 Dunlop core and 3" ILD 30 pressure relief layer. I am already absolutely in ‘love’ with what I have purchased so far and cannot thank you enough for your recommendations. Although these layers are far too firm for me to sleep on directly, the support they provide is simply phenomenal. I am currently using my old 3" memory foam topper from ‘Sleep Innovations’ (unsure on density) on top of the 6" ILD 44 Dunlop core and 3" ILD 30 Dunlop layer while I decide on what to purchase for the remaining 3" to 6" layer(s).
Thanks to your recommendations for ILD 28 or higher I am very pleased with my first two layers, however there is ‘no way’ I am able to sleep directly on the 30 ILD layer as even with the memory foam topper I am still getting a ‘pinching’ in my shoulders and hips so I must go below 28 ILD for the remaining layer(s).
I am considering purchasing two additional 3" layers of Dunlop, a 3" ILD 25 and a 3" ILD 20. I am unsure which layer to try first. If the memory foam was only 3.5lb density would ILD 20 Dunlop be more supportive? My thinking is that if I am unable to sleep directly on the ILD 30 layer than I am unlikely to be able to sleep directly on an ILD 25 layer therefore I should purchase the ILD 20 layer first to replace the memory foam and then add an additional ILD 25 layer between the 20 ILD and 30 ILD if pinching persists.
At 270lb my body loves the new support but I must solve the ‘pinching’ problem to be able to enjoy this new mattress.
Any thoughts for me Phoenix?
Hi baddog,
I’m not sure where you read any specific recommendations from me because there are so many variations between different body types, sleeping positions, preferences, mattress designs, and even individual layers of latex that I don’t ever provide specific ILD recommendations. It’s great to hear though that the layers you chose are working well for you so far in terms of support even though I can’t take the credit for your choices :).
Most people in your weight range would be fine with a medium top layer (around 28 ILD) although they may need a little more thickness than 9" for their “ideal” design but of course each person can be very different from others in the same weight range and “averages” don’t always apply to specific people.
It’s unlikely that you will need an additional 6" of latex on top of the 9" you already have and the odds are high that you won’t need more than about 12" of latex but of course your own experience will be the only way to know for certain.
While I don’t have any specific suggestions … there is more information about how to choose a topper (which would also apply to a top layer) in post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to about firmness and thickness that can help you use your sleeping experience as a reference point and guideline to help you choose the type, thickness, and firmness for a top layer (or a topper) that has the least possible risk and the best chance for success.
Phoenix
Hello,
It has been a while since I updated this post. I hoped by now to have completed this thread with a full review of a finished project. My original plan to construct the mattress entirely from Dunlop foam was unsuccessful. My purchase of 12" of Dunlop (6" ILD 44 Dunlop, 3" ILD 30 Dunlop, 3" ILD 20 Dunlop) failed to provide the necessary pressure relief I require. Unfortunately after purchasing additional layers of both Talalay latex and memory foam I am still unable to achieve a proper balance between pressure point relief and spinal alignment. I would very much appreciate any guidance as to how to resolve this issue.
I now have the following pieces of latex:
6" ILD 44 Dunlop (SleepOnLatex)
3" ILD 30 Dunlop (SleepOnLatex)
3" ILD 20 Dunlop (SleepOnLatex)
2" ILD 21 Talalay (Arizona Premium Mattress)
2" ILD 22 Talalay (Foam Factory)
1" ILD 22 Talalay (Foam Factory)
I also have the following pieces of memory foam:
3" 5lb Aerus memory foam (MFC - Memory Foam Comfort)
1" 5lb Aerus memory foam (MFC - Memory Foam Comfort)
I have tried every configuration/combination of latex, or latex with memory foam but I have been unable to achieve a proper balance between pressure relief and spinal support with my current layers. Memory foam as a topper did not work for me as I eventually sink into it and my spine comes way out of alignment. Memory foam under latex does help but I am trying to assemble a complete latex solution.
It takes at least 5" of soft (ILD 21/22) Talalay latex to completely remove all pressure points and firmness from my hips and thighs, and this only works when on top of the 3" of ILD 20 Dunlop. This is obviously is less than ideal for spinal alignment.
My current configuration is 6" ILD 44 Dunlop, 3" ILD 30 Dunlop, 3" ILD 20 Dunlop, and then 5" of ILD 21/22 Talalay latex. I tried removing the 3" ILD 20 Dunlop topper and using the 5" of ILD 20/21 Talalay on top of the ILD 30 Dunlop layer, but this did not work.
When I configure the mattress with only 12" of all Dunlop (6" ILD 44 Dunlop, 3" ILD 30 Dunlop, 3" ILD 20 Dunlop) it feels wonderful on my back and even seems soft at first but quickly leads to extreme pressure points which are only fully relieved by adding all 5" of ILD 20/21 Talalay. I have tried adding only 2" or 3" of soft ILD 21/22 Talalay to this configuration and pressure points are quite significant. Adding 4" resolves most pressure points but even with 4" I still experience a feeling of hardness over time on my hips when side-sleeping and the same hardness is felt on my frontal thigh attempting stomach sleeping as I do not fully stomach sleep but kind of turn my hips to the left or right slightly placing most of my weight on one frontal-thigh/frontal-hip or the other. To be clear, this is not a ‘princess and the pea’ situation but I literally toss and turn all night long with only 4"of soft Talalay.
As the mattress is on a solid platform bed I also tried placing various layers (1" to 3") of latex/memory foam under the core which does affect the overall mattress but does not alleviate the pressure points.
It would seem to me that the problem is that the ILD 20 Dunlop latex which while soft for some reason is creating pressure points. I am considering replacing it but the only option would appear to be N-3 #25-29 ILD All Natural Talalay (from Arizona Premium Mattress) which if I understand the correlation between Dunlop and Talalay would be as firm or firmer as the ILD 20 Dunlop (I’m adding 5 ILD to the Dunlop to compare it with Talalay). Perhaps I do not correctly understand the difference between Dunlop and Talalay? My question is: Would replacing my 3" layer of ILD 20 Dunlop with a 3" layer of 25-29 ILD Talalay be likely to provide better pressure relief than the 3" layer of 20 ILD Dunlop or would the Talalay in affect be firmer and therefore likely to be as bad or even worse? Does Talalay provide better pressure point relief than comparable ILD Dunlop latex?
Thanks so much.
If you like the way memory foam under latex felt, why not use that? Why the goal of all latex? For people who want softness but are concerned with going out of alignment - a little bit of memory foam is great because you sink pretty evenly through it - whereas 20 ILD latex will still hold up lighter parts. That 20 ILD latex is ~8-10 ILD firmer than memory foam (and in reality, far more than that once compressed, because latex gets firmer faster).
Edit: as to your question - the only time “firmer” would reduce pressure points is where you were completely going through the layer and hitting a hard core. Given the thickness and firmness of the layers you have - I highly doubt that is happening. I would guess you just need something softer, like 14 ILD talalay or memory foam.
Thank you for your suggestions djgoldb. Memory foam on top of latex simply does not work for me as even though I really like the ‘feel’ of the memory foam I find that it brings me out of alignment which I have learned to recognize almost instantly. The increased airflow of latex produces a cool sleep environment which I have come to appreciate, contrary to the heat associated with memory foam as a top layer. Memory foam under latex does indeed help relieving pressure points however I have found that 1" of latex gives the same pressure relief of 2"s of memory foam. Although my pressure points are relieved with all the soft Talalay the bed feels quite ‘soft’ … side sleeping is surprisingly not too far out of alignment however back sleeping is somewhat painful. I have chronic back pain, so my goal is to firm up my mattress while maintaining pressure point relief.
What I don’t understand is why I need 8" of soft latex to relieve my pressure points. I can understand needing possibly an extra 2" on top of the ILD 20 Dunlop but certainly not an extra 5". It seems to me that the ILD 20 Dunlop is creating rather than relieving my pressure points and if this is correct is it also correct to conclude that changing the ILD 20 Dunlop to ILD N-3 #25-29 ILD Talalay will then require less ILD 21/22 Talalay to relieve pressure points while firming up my mattress?
Thank you kindly for your suggestions.
Hi baddog,
I would agree with djgoldb’s comments that there is no inherent reason to use only latex if a combination of memory foam and latex (with the memory foam under the latex) works best for you in terms of PPP.
[quote]I now have the following pieces of latex:
6" ILD 44 Dunlop (SleepOnLatex)
3" ILD 30 Dunlop (SleepOnLatex)
3" ILD 20 Dunlop (SleepOnLatex)
2" ILD 21 Talalay (Arizona Premium Mattress)
2" ILD 22 Talalay (Foam Factory)
1" ILD 22 Talalay (Foam Factory)
I also have the following pieces of memory foam:
3" 5lb Aerus memory foam (MFC - Memory Foam Comfort)
1" 5lb Aerus memory foam (MFC - Memory Foam Comfort)
I have tried every configuration/combination of latex, or latex with memory foam but I have been unable to achieve a proper balance between pressure relief and spinal support with my current layers. Memory foam as a topper did not work for me as I eventually sink into it and my spine comes way out of alignment. Memory foam under latex does help but I am trying to assemble a complete latex solution.
It takes at least 5" of soft (ILD 21/22) Talalay latex to completely remove all pressure points and firmness from my hips and thighs, and this only works when on top of the 3" of ILD 20 Dunlop. This is obviously is less than ideal for spinal alignment.[/quote]
Part of the issues you are having may be related to the two latex layers that you purchased from Foam Factory which are almost certainly in a higher ILD range than you believed you were purchasing. There is more about purchasing from Foambymail (aka FBM and Foam Factory among others) in this post and this post and this topic (about their polyfoam and sources) and this post (presumably from a past employee). They don’t sell Talalay latex … they only say they do … and I also wouldn’t consider their latex ILD ratings to be accurate or reliable.
I would probably treat the two Dunlop layers you purchased from them as being in a medium firmness range (@30 ILD or so although this would strictly be guesswork) and use them deeper in the mattress to see if this makes any difference although it can be much more challenging to build a DIY design when two of your layers are an unknown firmness so trial and error will become much more important than their actual listed ILD ranges.
Your design is too complex and has too many layers (including two unknown layers) to be able to predict the types of changes that may be helpful with any specificity but it may be very helpful if you could list your “top 3” configurations along with a more detailed description of your symptoms and sleeping experience on each of them and how they differ from each other (again in terms of your actual “symptoms” and sleeping experience) which may help to identify any “patterns” that can point to the type of changes that may bring you closer to your ideal design.
I would keep in mind that the ILD isn’t a reliable indicator of the relative firmness of memory foam compared to other materials because ILD/IFD testing with memory foam produces completely different results than the same ILD/IFD testing with more resilient foam materials (see post #34 here) and ILD by itself (or IFD in the case of polyfoam or memory foam) is also only one of several specifications that can affect the sensation of softness or firmness relative to different body types and sleeping positions (see post #4 here).
Phoenix
Whether going from 20 dunlop to N3 talalay will reduce pressure will depend on how much the dunlop is being compressed. If it is within the top few inches of the mattress - 20 dunlop will surpass N3 talalay fairly quickly in terms of firmness. Overall, I don’t really understand your goal of firming up the mattress while also reducing pressure points. Those two goals are at odds more or less. I don’t think it makes sense to get firmer talalay.
Given how much trouble you seem to be having, I really think a differential construction where you put very soft materials on top of a medium-firm core is the easiest/best solution. Just add very soft inches, 1 inch at a time, on top of a firm core until you have enough pressure relief. Perhaps start with the 6 inches of 44, then the 3 inches of 30 dunlop, and then add memory foam/soft latex combinations.
Are these materials inside of a cover? If so - what kind? Have you tried it outside of the cover as a topper?
Hi Hi baddog,
I think that this is very good advice. I would start with adding some of the single layers on top of the 6" of 44 ILD and the 3" of 30 ILD Dunlop (except for the Foam Factory layers you are using) which would include the 2" ILD 21 Talalay from Arizona Premium Mattress and the two memory foam layers you have. If none of these 3 layer combinations are a good “match” for you I would consider various combinations of layers on top of the 44 ILD Dunlop including trying the two memory foam layers you have directly on top of the 44 ILD Dunlop with a single latex layer on top of them (either the 3" of 30 ILD Dunlop from SleepOnLatex or the 2" of 21 ILD Talalay from Arizona Premium) and if none of these 3 layer combinations worked well for you then I would begin to test combinations with three different layers on top of the 44 ILD Dunlop (so you would have 4 layers in total) and I would make sure to include the 44 ILD Dunlop under the 3" of 30 ILD Dunlop with one of the memory foam layers on top of this with the 2" of 21 ILD Talalay on top of the memory foam.
Of course the next step would be 5 layer combinations or some trial and error that included the Foam Factory layers but hopefully this won’t be necessary.
It would be great if you could provide some detailed feedback about your experience with each of these combinations.
Phoenix
djgoldb,
Yes, the ‘firming up the mattress while reducing pressure points’ do appear to be antagonistic, however my objective is to ‘retain’ the current pressure relief provided by the 8" of soft latex(3" ILD 20 Dunlop + 5" ILD 21/22 Talalay) for example with 3" N3 Talalay + 2" or even 3" ILD 21/22 Talalay. The resulting mattress would contain 2" or 3" less soft latex and should result in a less soft mattress overall in that there is less soft latex and thus increased support and improved spinal alignment. But I lack the knowledge and experience to confirm this theory?
I have tried removing the 20 ILD and placing 5" of ILD 21/22 Talalay on top of the 30 ILD Dunlop and this did not work (very uncomfortable … pressure points in my ribs of all places). I have not tried memory foam in addition to the 5" of Talalay between the 30 ILD Dunlop and the 5" 21/22 ILD Talalay. Thank you for the suggestion.
The 6" ILD 44 Dunlop, 3" ILD 30 Dunlop, 3" ILD 20 Dunlop is encased in a ‘4 way Stretch Non Quilted’ encasement from SleepEZ.com
Thank you for your recommendation djgoldb, very much appreciated.
[quote=“Phoenix” post=55914]Hi baddog,
I would agree with djgoldb’s comments that there is no inherent reason to use only latex if a combination of memory foam and latex (with the memory foam under the latex) works best for you in terms of PPP.
[quote]I now have the following pieces of latex:
6" ILD 44 Dunlop (SleepOnLatex)
3" ILD 30 Dunlop (SleepOnLatex)
3" ILD 20 Dunlop (SleepOnLatex)
2" ILD 21 Talalay (Arizona Premium Mattress)
2" ILD 22 Talalay (Foam Factory)
1" ILD 22 Talalay (Foam Factory)
I also have the following pieces of memory foam:
3" 5lb Aerus memory foam (Memory Foam Comfort)
1" 5lb Aerus memory foam (Memory Foam Comfort)
I have tried every configuration/combination of latex, or latex with memory foam but I have been unable to achieve a proper balance between pressure relief and spinal support with my current layers. Memory foam as a topper did not work for me as I eventually sink into it and my spine comes way out of alignment. Memory foam under latex does help but I am trying to assemble a complete latex solution.
It takes at least 5" of soft (ILD 21/22) Talalay latex to completely remove all pressure points and firmness from my hips and thighs, and this only works when on top of the 3" of ILD 20 Dunlop. This is obviously is less than ideal for spinal alignment.[/quote]
Part of the issues you are having may be related to the two latex layers that you purchased from Foam Factory which are almost certainly in a higher ILD range than you believed you were purchasing. There is more about purchasing from Foambymail (aka FBM and Foam Factory among others) in this post and this post and this topic (about their polyfoam and sources) and this post (presumably from a past employee). They don’t sell Talalay latex … they only say they do … and I also wouldn’t consider their latex ILD ratings to be accurate or reliable.
I would probably treat the two Dunlop layers you purchased from them as being in a medium firmness range (@30 ILD or so although this would strictly be guesswork) and use them deeper in the mattress to see if this makes any difference although it can be much more challenging to build a DIY design when two of your layers are an unknown firmness so trial and error will become much more important than their actual listed ILD ranges.
Your design is too complex and has too many layers (including two unknown layers) to be able to predict the types of changes that may be helpful with any specificity but it may be very helpful if you could list your “top 3” configurations along with a more detailed description of your symptoms and sleeping experience on each of them and how they differ from each other (again in terms of your actual “symptoms” and sleeping experience) which may help to identify any “patterns” that can point to the type of changes that may bring you closer to your ideal design.
I would keep in mind that the ILD isn’t a reliable indicator of the relative firmness of memory foam compared to other materials because ILD/IFD testing with memory foam produces completely different results than the same ILD/IFD testing with more resilient foam materials (see post #34 here) and ILD by itself (or IFD in the case of polyfoam or memory foam) is also only one of several specifications that can affect the sensation of softness or firmness relative to different body types and sleeping positions (see post #4 here).
Phoenix[/quote]
Hi Phoenix,
To be clear ‘all’ of the Dunlop layers were purchased from ‘SleepOnLatex’. The only latex purchased from Foamfactory was a 2" and a 1" layer of ILD 22 Talalay. So my configuration of 6" ILD 44 Dunlop, 3" ILD 30 Dunlop, 3" ILD 20 Dunlop was all purchased from SleepOnLatex so the ILD’s of these layers are indeed correct and together they are not providing the pressure relief I need and require either additional latex or the replacement of one or more layers. The 2" and the 1" layers of ILD 22 Talalay from Foam Factory combined with the 2" ILD 21 Talalay from Arizona Premium Mattress are indeed providing pressure relief. The reason I purchased the these two layers from Foam Factory is that I can slip across the border from where I live in Canada … their pick-up price and no shipping and no duty when I cross the border saves me literally 50%. The quality of the Talalay is not in every respect equal to the quality of Arizona Premium but they do indeed appear to be Talalay (see attached pictures). I have tested them and they both are functionally equivalent for pressure relief as the Talalay I purchased from Arizona Premium Mattress. As far as pressure relief, the FoamFactory latex does not appear to be the problem but are actually providing pressure relief at least for now.
There is really only one configuration that works and that is:
6" ILD 44 Dunlop, 3" ILD 30 Dunlop, 3" ILD 20 Dunlop, 5" of ILD 21/22 Talalay.
I am surprised that this actually works and I say it works in the sense of having no pressure points either side sleeping or my version of stomach sleeping (noted above), and spinal alignment is surprisingly ‘not bad’ … not perfect as the mattress is obviously soft but the only pain/discomfort seems to arise from extended periods of sleeping on my back.
No other configuration provides complete pressure relief and I have seriously changed configurations every night for the last two months. Memory foam inserted between the Talalay and the Dunlop does help with pressure relief but as I stated it takes 2" memory foam to equal 1" of Talalay.
Unfortunately I did not anticipate this problem and therefore did not keep a journal of my exact experience on every different configuration but this can be adequately summarized in the following:
Taking as a base configuration:
6" ILD 44 Dunlop, 3" ILD 30 Dunlop, 3" ILD 20 Dunlop
Any layers of latex or memory foam inserted under anywhere below the ILD 20 Dunlop makes the bed feel softer but does almost nothing for the pain/discomfort I experience in my hips and thighs. The discomfort develops over the course of a few minutes and is decreased as layers are added above the ILD 20 Dunlop. It feels like my hips/thighs are gently resting upon a hard surface and the discomfort increases as I remain in a fixed position. The discomfort decreases as I add layers of latex or memory foam above the ILD 20 Dunlop.
Hopefully this helps as I don’t know how I can provide much additional detail. As stated above laying down on the base configuration of Dunlop feels almost perfect when I first lay down but very quickly produces the discomfort I have described. Would you expect replacing the ILD 20 Dunlop with N-3 #25-29 ILD Talalay likely to provide better pressure relief and thus require less soft Talalay on top which would have the added effect of creating a somewhat firmer mattress with improved spinal alignment? I have read all I could find on the differences between Dunlop and Talalay latex but I am still unclear on comparing their pressure relief and/or alignment properties.
I read the following from a post on this forum:
Whereas Dunlop will rapidly increase in firmness after 50% compression (what is called “support”), that same property can create pressure points to hips and shoulders that sink into this deeper/firmer zone, but since Dunlop is relatively soft (relative to the 25% ILD rating, that is) in the upper 25% of the layer, it can actually have diminished support to other parts off the body that need more support. The properties of Talalay are clearly better than Dunlop in this regard in the top layer as you can have the same ILD, but have more support in the top 25% and less pressure points in that 50-75% depth.
He concludes:
I am concluding that (for me) Dunlop is a good middle layer, but is not ideal for the top (unless you need firm),
Could you comment on this Phoenix as it seems to reflect my current understanding (or lack thereof) and proposed path forward and question regarding replacing the ILD 20 Dunlop with the N3?