Thanks for your quick reply. I had to make a trip to Toronto yesterday to pick up some parts for what will eventually be a foundation bed for the mattress once I make my selection.
I understand as you stated that ‘there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components would be the best “match”.
Perhaps a little history may help to clarify the advice I am seeking:
The bed I am replacing is a 10" latex mattress from Sears (I believe it has 6" of latex with a polyurethane core). I also added a 3" memory foam topper in addition on top of the mattress to provide an extra level of softness. When this mattress was new it was a joy to sleep on and I was immediately overjoyed with my purchase. Over a relative short period of time however this 3k$ mattress developed a significant ‘sink hole’ and after only a few years it needed to be replaced. I love the softness of the memory foam topper and I am trying to reproduce that ‘somewhat’ with the 2" of ILD 12-15 on the mattress I tried at the store. I don’t sink into the latex the same as with the memory foam but I’m trying to produce the feeling of being wrapped up in a cloud so to speak, hopefully without the heat of the memory foam. So although I enjoyed this mattress while it was new, I am hoping to avoid a reoccurrence of this short life span with my new mattress.
Where I live, in a Canadian border town adjacent to Michigan, there are literally no retailers or manufacturers where I can try different configurations, I had to travel a 6 hour round trip from my home to Ideal Mattress Ltd in Toronto, and as I have a significant back disability it is extremely difficult to make the trip. I found the mattress configuration (above) I tried at the store to be comfortable while also being supportive, but as they did not have any firmer latex for me to test I do not currently know how that may affect my comfort but my guess is that increasing the core from 32 ILD to ILD 36 or ILD 40 should not affect my comfort as I should not be sinking down onto the core anyway. I spoke with another Canadian manufacturer of Dunlop latex on the phone who also stated that he was unable to procure ILD 40 Dunlop latex. Although this would obviously be due to these company’s individual suppliers, I am having a difficult time finding a retailer or manufacturer selling natural latex rubber mattresses at a reasonable price (reasonable being under $4,000.00 inclusive).
To my surprise I liked the feeling of mattress quoted in my post. I have only been to one store but they did allow me to try various configurations of soft, medium, and firm latex only they did not have an ILD 40 or even an ILD 36 latex but all the other ILD’s of Dunlop latex were available to mix and match. The mattress above provided the softness that I like but also seemed to provide support at the same time, which was why I was surprised as my research seemed to suggest I require a denser core for a man of my weight. I tried softer configurations which were quite comfortable but they did not provide the support I know that I require. I tried firmer configurations (same core, firmer comfort layers) which did not provide the comfort I’m looking for.
What I am asking for advice on specifically is with the ‘core layer’ (7" of ILD 32). I am hoping that with proper selection on my part, the core layer will provide a foundation that can be relied upon to last for many years. I can live with and I actually anticipate that the comfort layers will have to be replaced within a few years. I would like to know if a ‘core’ using 7" ILD 32 is likely provide similar durability and longevity as a core using ILD 36 or ILD 40? I am looking to design a mattress where the ‘core’ will outlast one or more changes of the comfort layer(s). What would be the longevity of an ILD 32 core in comparison with a core using ILD 36 or ILD 40?
Also, is a core using ILD32 Dunlop (combined with 3" of ILD 18-22 as I tried at the store) likely to give me the support I need over time, or is the entire mattress likely to develop either a sink hole like my current mattress, or fail to provide support to my body over the years? As I stated, I anticipate having to replace the comfort layer over time, but I would like to select a core (and possibly the middle 3" layer also) that will hold up to my 270lb’s over time. I would expect that as latex increases in density it also increases in durability and longevity. Is this correct, and if so how much of a difference in durability and longevity should I expect as I increase the density from 32 ILD to 36 and 40 ILD?
My apologies for writing a book. I sincerely appreciate any advice.
Hi baddog,
There is more about the differences between memory foam and latex in post #2 here but the “feel” of being “wrapped up in a cloud” may be from the memory foam and it may not be possible to duplicate with latex because they are very different materials with a completely different subjective feel and response. Perhaps the closest you could come would be with very soft Talalay in the range of 14 - 19 ILD but it would still have a more “on the mattress” feel than memory foam and latex (or any material) that is that soft isn’t likely to hold up well for someone in your weight range. If you are considering materials that are that soft I would probably make sure that they were either component layers or a topper so that they can be easily replaced without replacing the whole mattress.
There is more about the different ways that one mattress can “match” another one in post #9 here but the only reliable way to do this based on “specs” would be to duplicate the type, firmness, and thickness of all the layers and components in a mattress because every layer in a mattress will have some effect on the feel and performance of all the other layers and the mattress as a whole although the top 5" or 6" or so would have a bigger effect on what you feel when you lie on a mattress than the deeper layers. Other than duplicating the specs of your previous mattress you may need to actually test mattresses until you find one that has a similar “feel” based on your actual experience in the showroom.
If you let me know your city or zip code I’d be happy to let you know about any options or possibilities I’m aware of in your area.
I would keep in mind that all the layers in a mattress will have “some” effect on all the other layers. They will all compress to some degree although the softer layers and the layers that are closer to the surface will compress more than firmer layers or layers that are deeper in the mattress and the upper layers will have more effect on how a mattress “feels” than the deeper layers. Depending on how sensitive you are to smaller changes though … some people will notice even relatively small changes in a mattress in any layer while others may not notice them at all.
It may be more difficult to find 40 ILD latex in Toronto (I know that other forum members in Toronto have had some difficulty finding it as well) but I don’t know the specifics of the mattresses that all the retailers on the Toronto list carry so you will need to either check their websites and/or talk to them on the phone to find out if any of them carry any mattreses that include 40 ILD latex in the support layers. It may be worth trying Dormio (who is a member of this site) or Soma Sleep although some of the others may also have it available as well.
Unless you have a great deal of experience in the industry and on a wide variety of latex mattresses with different combinations of latex I would concentrate more on your testing than on using specs (which may not always be accurate) and which are much more difficult to “translate” into your real life experience.
There really is no way to quantify how long any mattress or combination of layers will maintain its comfort and support for any specific person but the previous post I linked in my last reply has much more detailed information about how all of the many variables involved can affect durability and the useful life of a mattress relative to different people. Since firmness is a durability factor as well it would be reasonable to expect firmer ILD’s to last longer than softer ILD’s if all the other layers and components of the mattress were the same so a firmer support core (probably in the range of 36 ILD or higher) with suitable layering on top of it (as firm as you are comfortable with) would probably be a good choice considering your weight.
Again you are asking questions that don’t have a quantifiable answer except in relative terms in comparison to other mattresses (firmer will be more durable than softer etc) because it will vary from person to person even if they are in the same weight range. Your own testing or personal experience will be the only way to know whether any mattress keeps you in good alignment in all your sleeping positions. In terms of durability … firmer layers will last longer than softer layers so I would choose the firmest layers that you are comfortable with and that provides you with good PPP.
Phoenix
Thank you so much Phoenix for your detailed post, I really do appreciate the time you have spent and the information in your post(s). I fully understand your reluctance to state specific ILD recommendations and it certainly is true that PPP is going to be different for every individual.
I have reconsidered my original decision to purchase locally as I am unable to obtain an appropriately firm Dunlop core (ILD 40) which appears to be required for a person of my weight. I think my best choice at this point will be a DIY most likely from Arizona Mattress (www.mattresses.net). Although I understand that you are not able to give me specific ILD’s I am considering the following purchase:
6" ILD 36 – ILD 40 Dunlop (core)
3" ILD 22 Dunlop (intermediate layer or comfort layer)
I am considering starting with only these two layers and see how they feel after sleeping on them for a while with the goal of adding an additional 3" or more afterwards.
Question: If I am unable to source 40 ILD Dunlop Core would you think that a 36 ILD Core would be sufficient for my 270lbs or would you advise me to keep looking for ILD 40 ?
Secondly, my logic in purchasing the 3" of ILD 22 Dunlop is that if it is too firm for a topper I can add a topper to it or if it is too soft for an intermediate layer I can use it as a topper. Does this sound reasonable?
Thanks so much, I appreciate your input.
Hi baddog,
[quote] I think my best choice at this point will be a DIY most likely from Arizona Mattress (www.mattresses.net). Although I understand that you are not able to give me specific ILD’s I am considering the following purchase:
6" ILD 36 – ILD 40 Dunlop (core)
3" ILD 22 Dunlop (intermediate layer or comfort layer)[/quote]
You are certainly looking in a good direction if you are comfortable with an online purchase.
There is also more information in post #2 here about the different ways to choose a mattress (either locally or online) that is the best “match” for you in terms of PPP that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for that are involved in each of them but when you can’t test a mattress in person (or at least a design that is very similar) then the most reliable source of guidance is always a more detailed conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer who has your best interests at heart that can help “talk you through” the options they have available based on the information you provide them, any local testing you have done, and the “averages” of other customers that are similar to you. They will know more about “matching” their specific mattress designs to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences and which of the firmness and layering options they have available will have the best chance of success than anyone else.
There is little difference between a 40 ILD Dunlop core and a 36 ILD Dunlop core and a 4 ILD difference would be inside the range that a Dunlop core can vary anyway (you can get a sense of the range for each firmness level of 100% natural Dunlop here). Which one was “better” for you would also depend on the layers that are on top of the core as well because in some designs you may need a firmer core and in some designs you may need to focus more on the transition between the layers.
Your own personal testing or a more detailed conversation with a knowledgeable manufacturer that can give you suggestions that are specific to the mattress you are considering and the materials and options they have available are the two most reliable ways to choose. While I would “lean” towards a firmer support core at your weight … it may not always be the best choice for you depending on the thickness and firmness of all the other layers and how they interact together and with you on the mattress.
I would tend to choose firmer layers if I was in your shoes because 22 ILD may be on the soft side for most people in your weight range either as a top layer or as an intermediate layer but once again the only way to know this for certain would be based on your own personal experience so the exchange options you have after a purchase would also be an important part of the “value” of your purchase. I would also keep in mind that there will be some cost involved in exchanging a topper across the border so if the top layer is too firm (which is very unlikely with a 22 ILD layer) then you can always add a topper to add some additional softness and pressure relief but if the top layer is too soft then the only effective solution to firm up the mattress would be to replace it with a firmer layer.
Phoenix
Thanks Phoenix, I feel like I’m at least headed in the right direction. Excuse my ignorance but I’m not quite sure I understood the following statement.
So would a softer core (36 ILD) be more appropriate if the other layers are not quite so dense, as in a 22 ILD layer or vise versa? Could you please elaborate please Phoenix?
Thanks.
Hi baddog,
Both of these comments were just a way of saying “it depends” on the specific design and combination of materials in a mattress.
For example if you have a thinner comfort layer on top of a support core then you may need a lower ILD support core because you could “go through” the comfort layer and compress the deeper layers below it more and with a thinner comfort layer and a larger differential between the ILD’s you may feel too much of the firmness of the support core below it for you to be comfortable on the mattress.
The ILD of a latex core is measured by the force it takes to compress a 50 sq inch round compressor plate 1.5" into the core so the ILD only measures the firmness at 1.5" of compression on a 6" core. All foam materials become firmer as you sink into them more deeply so it would take more force to compress the foam more deeply than 1.5" (the rate that a foam material becomes firmer with deeper compression is called the compression modulus of the foam) so if you had a thinner comfort layer then you would be compressing the support core more deeply and it would “act” firmer and be more “supportive” than if you had a thicker comfort layer on top of the same support core.
Different types and blends of latex also have a different compression modulus and the ILD of different types and blends of latex may not be directly comparable to each other as well (see post #6 here)
There are also many other “specs” that combine together as part of the design of a mattress that makes one mattress suitable for one person and not another and ILD by itself can be somewhat misleading because it isn’t the only specification that determines the feel and performance of a mattress or how “supportive” a support core may be (see post #2 here).
Unless you have a great deal of knowledge and experience with different types of mattress materials and specs and different layering combinations and how they combine together and can translate them into your own “real life” experience … I would tend to avoid using ILD numbers or other complex specs to try and predict how a mattress will feel for you and focus more on your own actual testing and experience or if you can’t test a mattress in person then a more detailed phone conversation with an online manufacturer or retailer. If you try to become an “expert” in mattress theory and design it could take you years to learn enough to design your own mattress using specs that can be more complex than you may realize and I would focus more on your own testing which “bypasses” the need to know anything about specs at all or alternatively talking to knowledgeable and experienced manufacturers or retailers who already know what you would otherwise need to learn before you would be able to choose a mattress.
Phoenix
That makes sense Thanks Phoenix.
Would a ‘split’ core (Two Twin XL’s to make a ‘King Size’ instead of a single piece of latex) make any difference? I see others splitting the comfort layers but I couldn’t find anything on the consequences having a split core. I’m not talking about different firmness levels, it seems some online DIY’s are splitting the their 6" king size core’s into two twin xl’s for shipping reasons I assume?
Hi baddog,
Outside of providing options to customize the layering and firmness of each side … the main benefit of a split 6" support core is that it’s easier to handle and transport and they can be shipped through courier instead of a common carrier which is much more costly.
With solid layers on top of it or with a suitable tight fitting quilted cover it won’t make any noticeable difference in the feel or performance of the mattress either way.
Phoenix
Thanks Phoenix, you’ve been a great help, I’m sincerely thankful for all your advice.
So here’s my latest configuration:
6" ILD 36 Dunlop
3" ILD 25-29 Dunlop
2" ILD 22 Dunlop topper.
Does this look like a good start for my weight (270lbs) now?
Hi baddog,
I don’t have enough information or reference points to really be able to make a meaningful guess and there is no way to predict which layering you will do best with based on “theory” or by using a “formula” that can possibly be more accurate than your own careful testing or sleeping experience but you appear to be choosing layers that are a little softer than would be “typical” for your weight range based on “averages” or “theory” and I would tend to start with firmer layers than the ones you are considering. Assuming that the ILD ratings you are being given are accurate in the first place … I would probably avoid ILD’s that are less than about 28 in the top layer and then go progressively firmer as you go deeper after that.
I would always keep in mind though that personal experience always “trumps” theory.
Phoenix
So other than the ‘topper’ the rest would appear to be correct then Phoenix?
Hi baddog,
There is no “correct” based on any formula or theory and the only “correct” would be the combination of layers that is the best “match” for you in terms of PPP and a combination of layers that you sleep well on.
There is more about the different ways to choose a mattress (either locally or online) that is the most suitable “match” for your specific needs and preferences and how to identify and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for that are involved in each of them in post #2 here.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
I’m still hard at my mattress education. I think I have a fairly clear idea of what my needs are and the individual latex components best suited to me personally. I believe I’m coming close to an actual purchase.
I have a few questions Phoenix.
Do you have a preference between Dunlop latex produced by the newer ‘continuous pour’ method and the older ‘mold’ method of producing Dunlop latex? And if so why?
I’m looking at a ‘Pure Green™ Natural Latex’, Dunlop, which in another post you identified as most likely manufactured by Latexco. Would it be correct to presume that ‘Pure Green™ Natural Latex’ would manufactured using the ‘continuous pour’ method or would that be an incorrect assumption?
Also, is the term ‘100% Natural latex’ a meaningful title? Can synthetic petroleum based latex with various additives also be considered ‘natural’? I see some latex identified as being ‘Okeo Standard 100’ and ‘Eco-Institute’ certified. Are these certifications meaningful? Are there certain ‘terms’ I should be looking for to identify a quality Dunlop latex product?
Thank you so much Phoenix. I sincerely appreciate all your help.
Hi bddog,
My own personal preference leans towards Talalay (at least in terms of comfort layers) but this is strictly a preference issue and not a “better worse” issue and other people may have very different preferences than me. My daughter for example prefers the feel of Dunlop after testing both and that’s what she purchased and sleeps on. I haven’t done extensive side by side testing with continuous pour vs molded Dunlop but based on the testing I have done I don’t have a personal preference between them. In “theory” the continuous pour may be a little more consistent in terms of ILD variations across the surface but in practice this is unlikely to make a significant difference that most people would actually feel. The continuous pour is also available in lower ILD’s than you will usually find with molded Dunlop (the bottom of the 40% ILD range for Mountaintop continuous pour Dunlop for example would be the rough equivalent of the 25% ILD range for Talalay and would be very similar to the softest Talalay … see post #8 here). The continuous pour Dunlop has a “feel” that is somewhat in between Talalay and Dunlop but closer to Dunlop. Both are very high quality and durable materials and in terms of quality and durability they would be very closely comparable. I would treat the choice between them as a preference issue.
The Pure Green is molded Dunlop that is distributed by Latexco but they don’t manufacture it. It’s most likely made by Latex Green which is a very high quality product (Latexco also distributes latex from other companies and their 100% natural Dunlop is usually made by Latex Green). SleepOnLatex used to sell a synthetic/natural blend (80/20) that was continuous pour Dunlop that was made by Latexco in the US but they currently only sell the 100% natural molded Dunlop.
100% natural means that 100% of the rubber in the latex core is natural rubber (NR) vs synthetic rubber (SBR) but it doesn’t mean that 100% of the core itself is rubber because there are other substances that are needed to foam, cure, and manufacture the latex (see the first part of post #7 here).
No … it’s synthetic rubber not natural rubber. There is no specific standard that defines defines the percentage of natural rubber though that can be called “natural” so you will find that some blended cores are called “natural” latex (but not 100% natural) even though they contain some percentage of synthetic rubber. For example you will often find that the blended Talalay made by Talalay Global (previously Latex International) is called natural even though it’s only about 30% natural rubber and 70% synthetic rubber and their 100% natural Talalay is called “all natural” to differentiate it so many retailers confuse them and some will believe that their “natural” Talalay is actually 100% natural Talalay when it’s not so I would ask for the specifics of the blend rather than trusting the word “natural”. GOLS certified organic Dunlop latex would have at least 95% natural rubber content (and the rest would be the substances used to manufacture the latex) so it also uses 100% natural latex that is certified organic).
Oeko-Tex and Eco-Institut are both testing standards that test for harmful substances and VOC’s (see post #2 here). All the latex you are likely to encounter will have been tested by either one or the other though so I would consider any type or blend of latex as a very “safe” material. Eco-Institut also certifies whether a latex core is 100% natural latex but this is based on the declaration of the manufacturer.
The two main ways to differentiate latex are the type (Dunlop or Talalay) and the blend (the percentage of natural and synthetic rubber).
There is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here and there is more about Dunlop vs Talalay in post #7 here.
Phoenix
Thanks Phoenix that was extremely helpful. I’m getting very close now, hopefully this will be my last question.
Not sure if you know the answer to this Phoenix, but do you know the ‘manufacturer’ and ‘process method’ (continuous pour or mold method) and which of these two Dunlop cores might be ‘firmer/denser’.
Arizona Mattress:
6" Dunlop Core 36 ILD: (Greg stated a 40 ILD core of this Dunlop was available for a 10% premium).
SleeponLatex:
6" Dunlop 44 ILD Core:
https://sleeponlatex.com/products/natural-6-latex-mattress-core
Can I confidently compare their firmness solely by their listed ILD ratings (Arizona Mattress 40 ILD to SleeponLatex 44 ILD) and conclude that the 44 ILD from SleeponLatex would be definitely firmer/denser? It seems straightforward that the 44 ILD would be firmer than the 40 ILD but as these two products are from different retailers I’m unsure?
Thanks Phoenix.
Hi baddog,
If the ILD is correct then of course 44 ILD would be firmer than 40 or 36 ILD but I would keep in mind that ILD numbers are never exact with latex and in some cases ILD testing can vary depending on how the ILD is tested and the thickness of the core that is being tested. Dunlop latex cores are generally poured to density ranges rather than ILD and similar densities will have a similar firmness if the type and blend of latex is the same (see post #6 here for more about ILD ranges).
You can also see the ILD ranges relative to density for 100% natural latex made by Latex Green (which is most likely the Dunlop supplier in both cases) in post #2 here.
Phoenix
So I could purchase the 44 ILD Dunlop core from SleeponLatex believing it to be firmer than Arizona Premium Mattress core which is listed as 36 ILD when in fact I could be purchasing a softer, less dense layer of latex. Well that is pretty discouraging, but I expected that could indeed be the case.
Hi baddog,
The nature of latex is that it doesn’t come in exact ILD’s so it would depend on the relative density of the core you purchased. If you purchase a core that is in the extra firm range (39 - 44 ILD and about 90 kg/m3) then it would be firmer than a core that was in the firm range (34 - 38 ILD and about 85 kg/m3). It’s unlikely that you would notice much if any difference between different cores in the same firmness range … especially if they were under other layers.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
I just set up my first two components of my new latex mattress. I followed your recommendations and purchased 6" ILD 44 Dunlop core and 3" ILD 30 pressure relief layer. I am already absolutely in ‘love’ with what I have purchased so far and cannot thank you enough for your recommendations. Although these layers are far too firm for me to sleep on directly, the support they provide is simply phenomenal. I am currently using my old 3" memory foam topper from ‘Sleep Innovations’ (unsure on density) on top of the 6" ILD 44 Dunlop core and 3" ILD 30 Dunlop layer while I decide on what to purchase for the remaining 3" to 6" layer(s).
Thanks to your recommendations for ILD 28 or higher I am very pleased with my first two layers, however there is ‘no way’ I am able to sleep directly on the 30 ILD layer as even with the memory foam topper I am still getting a ‘pinching’ in my shoulders and hips so I must go below 28 ILD for the remaining layer(s).
I am considering purchasing two additional 3" layers of Dunlop, a 3" ILD 25 and a 3" ILD 20. I am unsure which layer to try first. If the memory foam was only 3.5lb density would ILD 20 Dunlop be more supportive? My thinking is that if I am unable to sleep directly on the ILD 30 layer than I am unlikely to be able to sleep directly on an ILD 25 layer therefore I should purchase the ILD 20 layer first to replace the memory foam and then add an additional ILD 25 layer between the 20 ILD and 30 ILD if pinching persists.
At 270lb my body loves the new support but I must solve the ‘pinching’ problem to be able to enjoy this new mattress.
Any thoughts for me Phoenix?
Hi baddog,
I’m not sure where you read any specific recommendations from me because there are so many variations between different body types, sleeping positions, preferences, mattress designs, and even individual layers of latex that I don’t ever provide specific ILD recommendations. It’s great to hear though that the layers you chose are working well for you so far in terms of support even though I can’t take the credit for your choices :).
Most people in your weight range would be fine with a medium top layer (around 28 ILD) although they may need a little more thickness than 9" for their “ideal” design but of course each person can be very different from others in the same weight range and “averages” don’t always apply to specific people.
It’s unlikely that you will need an additional 6" of latex on top of the 9" you already have and the odds are high that you won’t need more than about 12" of latex but of course your own experience will be the only way to know for certain.
While I don’t have any specific suggestions … there is more information about how to choose a topper (which would also apply to a top layer) in post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to about firmness and thickness that can help you use your sleeping experience as a reference point and guideline to help you choose the type, thickness, and firmness for a top layer (or a topper) that has the least possible risk and the best chance for success.
Phoenix