P.S. any chance you can pull this thread part that I started off to a new thread and maybe rename Pure Latex Bliss problems?
Hi scubamom,
Done 
[quote]For a temporary fix, wonder if we could shove two bungee boards under there?
There is a local mattress company (Cantwell) who still makes Latex beds (we still have two of them - 40 years old and still going strong) - I might be able to buy whatever foundation they use for their latex beds.
On the other hand, if it is a combination of the foundation AND the mattress… ??? [/quote]
If you can I would suggest sleeping on the mattress on the floor for a couple of nights to see whether that resolves the issues you are having. If it does that would confirm that it’s your foundation.
You could add a bunkie board (see here) or even plywood on top of your foundation to create a more evenly supportive surface (although I would probably cover it with fabric to reduce the chance of sharp edges or splinters harming your mattress). While I’m not a fan of solid support surfaces (see here) … for the short term or if there aren’t any other risk factors for humidity it would probably be fine.
Assuming you’ve confirmed you foundation is the issue I’m not sure what PLB would be able to do even if you were to reach them unless your foundation is defective or they have introduced a new foundation and were willing to replace it but replacing it with a suitable foundation from Cantwell (or any local store that sells a suitable foundation) or with one of the foundations that are listed in the foundation post here would probably be a good idea in the longer term.
Phoenix
Thanks for all the input! I went by the local mattress place and looked at Bunkie boards but these flex a bit, so that’s probably no help. We rotated the bed 90 degrees to see what it looked like and yep, there’s still a ridge down the middle and two sags on either side (except sideways now). We’ll try to sleep on it tonight and see what happens. Definitely looks like a mattress failure along with a lousy set of foundations. Will report back on how we sleep.
Hi scubamom.
I would give it a few nights at least to see what happens because it may take some time to “even out” if the foundation is the issue. Putting the mattress on the floor which would be a more even and solid support surface may also be a better way to test how much the foundation is affecting you although turning it sideways for long enough for the effects of the foundation to “come through” would also give a good indication about the effects of your foundation.
I would think that the odds are higher that the foundation is the main source of your issues than the mattress but of course anything is possible. It also wouldn’t be considered to be “defective” by the warranty criteria unless there was a visible impression that was 3/4" or more (see the warranty here).
I’m looking forward to your updates.
Phoenix
We can’t put it on the floor… no room, plus my husband and I could probably never pick it up off the floor! Weighs far too much for us.
I’m working on a set of solid foundations so we never have to change them again, despite whatever kind of mattress goes on them. The mattress store suggested the solid top Tempurpedics - I’m also looking into having Cantwell mattress making a set.
Meanwhile, we are pretty sure it is the mattress too… the first month was great… good support and contour under our side sleeping bodies - foam comfortably “soft”. Now when we lay sideways, it’s like the foam under our hips, shoulders, and upper legs are hitting the firmer sections below - feel like we have a brick under that whole part of our bodies.
I guess the best way to describe it is that the foam is losing buoyancy and compressing… enough to still be leaving an indention without springing back when we get out of bed.
Hi scubamom,
[quote]Meanwhile, we are pretty sure it is the mattress too… the first month was great… good support and contour under our side sleeping bodies - foam comfortably “soft”. Now when we lay sideways, it’s like the foam under our hips, shoulders, and upper legs are hitting the firmer sections below - feel like we have a brick under that whole part of our bodies.
I guess the best way to describe it is that the foam is losing buoyancy and compressing… enough to still be leaving an indention without springing back when we get out of bed. [/quote]
Some degree of softening is normal with all soft foam materials (the firmness of a foam material is also a factor in durability) and as the cover loses some of its initial stiffness … particularly over the course of the first few months when the materials are “breaking in” … but if there are no defects in the materials and they are high quality it will “stabilize” when the materials have broken in evenly in the parts that you sleep on less frequently or that have less weight on top of them. There is more about this in post #20 here.
Of course it’s also possible that the materials are defective and if the visible impressions (on a flat surface) are more than 3/4" then you would qualify for a warranty exchange as long as there are no stains on your mattress.
Phoenix
Maybe I should put our size here - I’m 5’9" and 155# - hubby is 6’3" and around 200#. It’s not like we are heavyweights on this mattress.
It’s gone from 1/2" of sag to a definite 5/8" in two weeks - we use a 4’ straight edge to measure… took pictures today to send them… it’s not just one place but pretty much head to toe on each side.
The foam over the middle (where the foundation comes together is a noticeable hill and hard as a rock compared to the rest of the mattress. We did not feel any of this the first month… top uniform visually and comfort wise.
If we are going to have yet another bed with two canoes on either side (as we did the two Simmons Beautyrest World Class ones - it makes me wonder about the state of the mattress business! Mattresses didn’t used to do this… at least not in two years (for the Simmons) and 3 months for the latex (remember I still have two 40 year old Latex mattresses in this house that are perfectly level and comfortable - we’d been sleeping in those but they are double size).
Anyway… since I bought two of these - one for our main home here (having all the sagging problems) and one for the family second home (which arrived far softer than the one here - figure that one out)… I am still within my 30 days to do a comfort exchange on the one up there. I think I’ll do that option on it and figure out what we are going to replace these things with.
I’ll call the dealer tomorrow and have a talk with them. After another sleepless night, no doubt! 
Hi scubamom,
If it’s certain that it’s not the foundation then the most likely alternative would be that you may have a mattress that has defective materials and hopefully your impression will soon reach 3/4" so it qualifies for a warranty exchange (or better yet they agree to a replacement as it stands now).
I hope you have the chance to let us know the results of your conversation either with your dealer or with PLB.
Phoenix
OK…an update: We turned the mattress sideways on the foundation to see what would happen - the mattress had the same hill in the middle and side dips… for awhile. By evening it had re-conformed somewhat to a ridge in the middle, plus the ridge it had (now across the bed right to left) and the whole thing looked like a lumpy mess!
I took a picture with a 4’ straight edged ruler across the sag on my side and the shadow shows the definite dip… now measuring almost 3/4".
We tried to sleep on it and it was crazy! The ONLY comfortable place (as before) was near the foundation ridge - the rest of the mattress was full of hills and dales. Not to mention my 6’ 4" hubby’s feet were falling off the end of the bed (which for the night was the side of the bed!)
I called the mattress business that sold us the two Pure Latex Bliss Beautifuls and explained what was going on. They are going to do a comfort exchange on the one at the second home (I’m within the 30 day period) and replace the one here with mattresses of my choice! Good people and great to do business with!
We discussed trying to reorder the Beautifuls, but they are still having trouble reaching the company and we decided it wasn’t worth the wait, trouble, or risk of what we might receive.
They recommended Simmons Beautyrest Black Hope or Ava Plush. We can use our 2" latex toppers if we need to soften them up. Any thoughts on those choices? I’ll have to go try them out.
Hi scubamom,
It certainly sounds like the issue is with the foundation and it can take a little time for the mattress to “show” what is underneath it or to “recover” from what was under it before.
That’s good to hear.
As you hopefully know from your reading and research here … these are exactly the types of mattresses that I warn against most frequently on this site and I would suggest that you avoid them completely (or any major brand mattress that uses lower quality materials in the comfort layers or where you aren’t able to confirm the quality of the materials in the mattress). These would both have lower quality materials in the comfort layers which would be obvious weak links in the mattresses that are much more likely to soften and/or sag prematurely. These are not good quality/value choices and I would strongly suggest that you avoid them.
Phoenix
Hi scubamom,
Another possibility is that the steel frame you are using is not supporting the PLB foundations correctly. I have a PLB queen size Nature mattress with a PLB matching foundation. I was not pleased with the construction of their foundation. See Post #5
We do not have any sags in our mattress but a few months ago the foundation started to creak. I called them a few weeks ago and could not reach them but left a voice message and they got back to me and replaced the foundation. See Post #1 PLB is down but not out yet. They will still honor your warranty.
My advice is get the PLB mattress replaced under the warranty if the impressions are 3/4" or more deep. Do not use the PLB foundations. Get a different foundation (see the foundation thread), and a heavy duty steel frame (if you do not have one); or place the mattress on a platform bed.
Hi BobP,
As usual … that’s good advice based on your own personal experiences
If a steel bedframe isn’t a good “match” for the foundation load bearing points or is a lower quality frame it can certainly cause sagging issues with a heavy mattress as you pointed out … although I (and other retailers I know) aren’t impressed with the PLB foundation anyway and several retailers tend not to sell them with their PLB mattresses.
As you also mentioned … PLB and Latex International is still moving ahead (see the update here).
Phoenix
BobP… thanks for the input! I went to your Post #5https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/purchased-pure-latex-bliss-nature and did an update. There is NOTHING on the top of the flimsy frame but a thin cloth… a few narrow slats 9" apart that don’t really even match up to the frame around it! Had we tried to keep the bed (which is now probably beyond recovery), we planned to go out and buy either Tempurpedic solid top foundations OR have a carpenter make a proper one with plenty of slats 2" apart with an extra support head to toe down each side! (yes, I’m a contractors daughter!
Yeah, I know… the three S’s aren’t what they used to be. We’ve slept on various Simmons over 30 years! And you are right, they certainly aren’t going to last that long, but after what we’ve been through, we’ll just replace it. Plus, we live down here in “Frontier Land” Texas without a lot of choices but the big Three, Tempurpedic (which I’m allergic to), and a few off cheapie brands.
At least if we go with the non-pillow top (I learned from you and experience that YEP, it’s the first to go) and the heaviest gauge springs with the Black line, at least it should last than our last mid line World Class ones. I plan to put the 2" Latex topper on it and maybe that will help extend the life of the foam in the tight top. It’s really the best I can hope for and hubby and I DO like the spring bed feel now that we’ve tried the tempurpedic cloud and the Pure Latex Bliss mattresses… it is truly a totally different feel.
Hi scubamom,
You may need to replace it much sooner than you anticipate or believe you will … without warranty coverage (as you can see here … warranties don’t cover the loss of comfort and support that goes with lower quality foams softening more quickly). These types of mattresses are also much more costly than the materials inside them would justify.
This may not make a lot of difference if the lower quality materials in the upper layers of your mattress are too thick (which is quite likely) because the latex will just compress into the layers underneath.
The Black line is among the worst of all. You can see some examples of the materials they use here and you can look at any of the models and you will find that every one of them has significant weak links in terms of the quality/density of the comfort layer materials they use (even the firmest ones).
I would avoid them completely and treat them as “buyer beware”.
Phoenix
I would welcome suggestions for other choices. Not sure if we really have much choice since the business is doing a free exchange on both our Latex mattresses. The one at the other house was MUCH softer than the floor model they have and the one here (which was great for the first 6 weeks - and then went saggy downhill the last 5 weeks). It may well be that Pure Latex Bliss had a few hiccups during the problems of bankruptcy, and two fires since we received these in that time period. I don’t trust trying to have them replaced, at least for now, plus the Mattress company has no idea when that could happen.
I’m in such bad shape pain wise from sleeping on the failing mattress that we don’t want to wait a month or two or three!
We also tried a Sterns & Foster Hybrid for two weeks and sent that back because of the memory foam fumes and affects on me of nausea and dizziness (same I had with Tempurpedic). Our daughter and grandson have the same reactions with memory foam.
Maybe two blow up mattresses or the floor?
Hi scubamom,
If I was in your shoes I would personally consider sticking with the PLB mattresses (with a better foundation of course) which are much higher quality and better value mattresses IMO than any of the Simmons mattresses you are considering.
If you let me know the store you are dealing with I’d be happy to take a look at what they carry to see if they have anything else that may be worth considering.
Phoenix
First off, please understand that I totally agree with you on Latex being a MUCH superior choice - don’t forget that I grew up on one (from the '50s) that I slept on for 20 years! I have always used Latex pillows (Leggett & Plat lately) and still have a latex bed in our guest room (Cantwell mattress of San Antonio/Corpus Christi) 40 years old that seems to have gotten a bit firmer over the years so I added a topper! My best friend has slept on this bed when she visits and last year when she needed a new bed I insisted she look at Latex - she ended up buying a Natura and loves it. She lives in Austin and had lots of places to look at various latex beds… lucky her!
I also think Latex is making a much needed comeback (thankfully) and hopefully will pull people away from dangerous off gassing memory foam. The various Simmons that we’ve had in the last 30 years had latex in the comfort levels (I made sure of that) instead of “mystery foams”! I’m a latex fan for sure.
I’m also disturbed that the present choices of the three S’s do not have latex choices in the comfort zones or so little I don’t know why they even include that in the list of foams. Our last round of Simmons (for the 2nd home) do have latex in the upper levels. Yes, they are getting a few dips after four years, but I made the mistake of getting pillow tops. I will say the firm one with the stronger spring gauge on 13.25 is holding up better than the 15.5 gauge plush ones.
Last night, we moved back to the Simmons until we can resolve this mess. I slept really well… back is better this morning and have about decided that we’ve become so used to a “spring” bed that we probably can’t get used to the “latex” feel anymore. We are 69 and 70 - maybe we can’t teach old bodies new tricks! Seriously!
In the last 4 months we’ve been through mattress hell. Started with Mattress Firm, locally, who sold us a Tempurpedic Cloud. The off gassing got me - even three weeks later it was as strong to me as the first day they delivered it) and it felt like sleeping on quicksand. They switched us to a S & F Hybrid - that was more like sleeping on a bowl of jello and the offgassing still got me. They refunded our money, bless their hearts. And we went with the Pure Latex Bliss Nature with the idea of a 2" topper PLB to soften it up. Too hard for me - my fibromyalgia screamed. I bought a 19 ILD to put under the topper… too soft! (Lordy I’m the Princess with the pea). Traded that in for the Beautiful (put the 2" topper on it) which was GREAT for 6 weeks. Then it started breaking down - we tried it without the 2" topper… that put too much pressure on my hips and legs… 2" topper went back on. We rotated it … no help with the sags… we put it 90 degrees across the bed… no better maybe worse. The 2nd Beautiful at 2nd home was way too soft - which puzzled us. ACK!
Off and on during this switcharoo deal, we had to keep returning to the Simmons upstairs in another guest room between mattress changes. And have come to this conclusion - we sleep best on a spring bed!
Our choices are Simmons, Sealy, Tempurpedic (forget it), and Corsicana. Pure Latex Bliss is out for now - unfortunately we are caught in the reorganization and have to make a decision now (for our sanity and backs).
The reason they are suggested the Simmons black line plush (not the pillowtop) is they’ve found it the most durable (yes they admit beds ain’t made like they used to be) - they have the strongest springs of the line and they get the fewest complaints. From all the research I’ve done and compared back to our present (in the guest rooms) Simmons World Class pillow-tops, that seems correct. If it doesn’t last 10 years, at our ages, it may not matter! We can’t outlive a good latex, that’s for sure! or maybe I mean
[quote=“scubamom” post=40996]
The reason they are suggested the Simmons black line plush (not the pillowtop) is they’ve found it the most durable (yes they admit beds ain’t made like they used to be) - they have the strongest springs of the line and they get the fewest complaints. From all the research I’ve done and compared back to our present (in the guest rooms) Simmons World Class pillow-tops, that seems correct. If it doesn’t last 10 years, at our ages, it may not matter! We can’t outlive a good latex, that’s for sure! or maybe I mean :-([/quote]
If you are sleeping comfortably on a World Class then I believe you are on fairly soft springs, which is not surprising given your weights. You would want to make sure that the Black line springs have a comparable give to them. I also understand your thinking that as we get up in age (and I’m almost up there with you) that longevity is less of an issue. I have come to the conclusion that if I end up needing lower quality materials in order to get the comfort I need, so be it. Perhaps taking the “Bic pen” is a reasonable alternative 
.
Hi scubamom,
Their experience certainly doesn’t match the experience of many other retailers I know. Not only are they not built like they used to be … they aren’t built as well as many smaller manufacturers continue to build them. You would be lucky to get 10 years from them and half of that or less would be quite likely as well. While it’s true that the non pillowtops would be a better choice than a pillowtop and a firmer model with the least possible amount of polyfoam with a high quality topper would be a better choice yet … the innersprings aren’t usually the weak link of a mattress and it’s the quality of the materials in the upper layers that is the biggest reason for early foam softening and breakdown.
Unfortunately they don’t carry anything I would generally consider so in cases like this one of the strategies I would use is to buy a firmer mattress that minimizes the use of lower quality materials (regardless of whether it’s in a pillowtop or a tight top) and then use a higher quality topper on top of it to add your own comfort layer (see post #2 here). If they carry the Sealy Optimum latex line then at least they use good quality materials in the comfort layers.
@ magpie,
The world class had versions with both softer and firmer (lower gauge) springs depending on the firmness level.
The Bic pen approach is great … as long as the prices reflect the lower quality materials. The issue with many of the major manufacturers is that you end up buying Bic pen quality but paying Montblanc prices (OK … that’s a little exaggerated and Parker prices would be more accurate :)). If you decide to go with the Bic pen approach then it’s still possible to deal with better manufacturers where you can still find mattresses where the prices reflect the quality of the materials … no matter which type of materials or mattresses you prefer.
Phoenix