Advice on new mattress that I'm considering, please.

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
28

Hi scubamom,

[quote]Meanwhile, we are pretty sure it is the mattress too… the first month was great… good support and contour under our side sleeping bodies - foam comfortably “soft”. Now when we lay sideways, it’s like the foam under our hips, shoulders, and upper legs are hitting the firmer sections below - feel like we have a brick under that whole part of our bodies.

I guess the best way to describe it is that the foam is losing buoyancy and compressing… enough to still be leaving an indention without springing back when we get out of bed. [/quote]

Some degree of softening is normal with all soft foam materials (the firmness of a foam material is also a factor in durability) and as the cover loses some of its initial stiffness … particularly over the course of the first few months when the materials are “breaking in” … but if there are no defects in the materials and they are high quality it will “stabilize” when the materials have broken in evenly in the parts that you sleep on less frequently or that have less weight on top of them. There is more about this in post #20 here.

Of course it’s also possible that the materials are defective and if the visible impressions (on a flat surface) are more than 3/4" then you would qualify for a warranty exchange as long as there are no stains on your mattress.

Phoenix

29

Maybe I should put our size here - I’m 5’9" and 155# - hubby is 6’3" and around 200#. It’s not like we are heavyweights on this mattress. :slight_smile:

It’s gone from 1/2" of sag to a definite 5/8" in two weeks - we use a 4’ straight edge to measure… took pictures today to send them… it’s not just one place but pretty much head to toe on each side.

The foam over the middle (where the foundation comes together is a noticeable hill and hard as a rock compared to the rest of the mattress. We did not feel any of this the first month… top uniform visually and comfort wise.

If we are going to have yet another bed with two canoes on either side (as we did the two Simmons Beautyrest World Class ones - it makes me wonder about the state of the mattress business! :slight_smile: Mattresses didn’t used to do this… at least not in two years (for the Simmons) and 3 months for the latex (remember I still have two 40 year old Latex mattresses in this house that are perfectly level and comfortable - we’d been sleeping in those but they are double size).

Anyway… since I bought two of these - one for our main home here (having all the sagging problems) and one for the family second home (which arrived far softer than the one here - figure that one out)… I am still within my 30 days to do a comfort exchange on the one up there. I think I’ll do that option on it and figure out what we are going to replace these things with.

I’ll call the dealer tomorrow and have a talk with them. After another sleepless night, no doubt! :frowning:

30

Hi scubamom,

If it’s certain that it’s not the foundation then the most likely alternative would be that you may have a mattress that has defective materials and hopefully your impression will soon reach 3/4" so it qualifies for a warranty exchange (or better yet they agree to a replacement as it stands now).

I hope you have the chance to let us know the results of your conversation either with your dealer or with PLB.

Phoenix

31

OK…an update: We turned the mattress sideways on the foundation to see what would happen - the mattress had the same hill in the middle and side dips… for awhile. By evening it had re-conformed somewhat to a ridge in the middle, plus the ridge it had (now across the bed right to left) and the whole thing looked like a lumpy mess!

I took a picture with a 4’ straight edged ruler across the sag on my side and the shadow shows the definite dip… now measuring almost 3/4".

We tried to sleep on it and it was crazy! The ONLY comfortable place (as before) was near the foundation ridge - the rest of the mattress was full of hills and dales. Not to mention my 6’ 4" hubby’s feet were falling off the end of the bed (which for the night was the side of the bed!) :slight_smile:

I called the mattress business that sold us the two Pure Latex Bliss Beautifuls and explained what was going on. They are going to do a comfort exchange on the one at the second home (I’m within the 30 day period) and replace the one here with mattresses of my choice! Good people and great to do business with!

We discussed trying to reorder the Beautifuls, but they are still having trouble reaching the company and we decided it wasn’t worth the wait, trouble, or risk of what we might receive.

They recommended Simmons Beautyrest Black Hope or Ava Plush. We can use our 2" latex toppers if we need to soften them up. Any thoughts on those choices? I’ll have to go try them out.

32

Hi scubamom,

It certainly sounds like the issue is with the foundation and it can take a little time for the mattress to “show” what is underneath it or to “recover” from what was under it before.

That’s good to hear.

As you hopefully know from your reading and research here … these are exactly the types of mattresses that I warn against most frequently on this site and I would suggest that you avoid them completely (or any major brand mattress that uses lower quality materials in the comfort layers or where you aren’t able to confirm the quality of the materials in the mattress). These would both have lower quality materials in the comfort layers which would be obvious weak links in the mattresses that are much more likely to soften and/or sag prematurely. These are not good quality/value choices and I would strongly suggest that you avoid them.

Phoenix

33

Hi scubamom,
Another possibility is that the steel frame you are using is not supporting the PLB foundations correctly. I have a PLB queen size Nature mattress with a PLB matching foundation. I was not pleased with the construction of their foundation. See Post #5
We do not have any sags in our mattress but a few months ago the foundation started to creak. I called them a few weeks ago and could not reach them but left a voice message and they got back to me and replaced the foundation. See Post #1 PLB is down but not out yet. They will still honor your warranty.

My advice is get the PLB mattress replaced under the warranty if the impressions are 3/4" or more deep. Do not use the PLB foundations. Get a different foundation (see the foundation thread), and a heavy duty steel frame (if you do not have one); or place the mattress on a platform bed.

34

Hi BobP,

As usual … that’s good advice based on your own personal experiences :slight_smile:

If a steel bedframe isn’t a good “match” for the foundation load bearing points or is a lower quality frame it can certainly cause sagging issues with a heavy mattress as you pointed out … although I (and other retailers I know) aren’t impressed with the PLB foundation anyway and several retailers tend not to sell them with their PLB mattresses.

As you also mentioned … PLB and Latex International is still moving ahead (see the update here).

Phoenix

35

BobP… thanks for the input! I went to your Post #5https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/purchased-pure-latex-bliss-nature and did an update. There is NOTHING on the top of the flimsy frame but a thin cloth… a few narrow slats 9" apart that don’t really even match up to the frame around it! Had we tried to keep the bed (which is now probably beyond recovery), we planned to go out and buy either Tempurpedic solid top foundations OR have a carpenter make a proper one with plenty of slats 2" apart with an extra support head to toe down each side! (yes, I’m a contractors daughter! :slight_smile:

36

Yeah, I know… the three S’s aren’t what they used to be. We’ve slept on various Simmons over 30 years! And you are right, they certainly aren’t going to last that long, but after what we’ve been through, we’ll just replace it. Plus, we live down here in “Frontier Land” Texas without a lot of choices but the big Three, Tempurpedic (which I’m allergic to), and a few off cheapie brands.

At least if we go with the non-pillow top (I learned from you and experience that YEP, it’s the first to go) and the heaviest gauge springs with the Black line, at least it should last than our last mid line World Class ones. I plan to put the 2" Latex topper on it and maybe that will help extend the life of the foam in the tight top. It’s really the best I can hope for and hubby and I DO like the spring bed feel now that we’ve tried the tempurpedic cloud and the Pure Latex Bliss mattresses… it is truly a totally different feel.

37

Hi scubamom,

You may need to replace it much sooner than you anticipate or believe you will … without warranty coverage (as you can see here … warranties don’t cover the loss of comfort and support that goes with lower quality foams softening more quickly). These types of mattresses are also much more costly than the materials inside them would justify.

This may not make a lot of difference if the lower quality materials in the upper layers of your mattress are too thick (which is quite likely) because the latex will just compress into the layers underneath.

The Black line is among the worst of all. You can see some examples of the materials they use here and you can look at any of the models and you will find that every one of them has significant weak links in terms of the quality/density of the comfort layer materials they use (even the firmest ones).

I would avoid them completely and treat them as “buyer beware”.

Phoenix

38

I would welcome suggestions for other choices. Not sure if we really have much choice since the business is doing a free exchange on both our Latex mattresses. The one at the other house was MUCH softer than the floor model they have and the one here (which was great for the first 6 weeks - and then went saggy downhill the last 5 weeks). It may well be that Pure Latex Bliss had a few hiccups during the problems of bankruptcy, and two fires since we received these in that time period. I don’t trust trying to have them replaced, at least for now, plus the Mattress company has no idea when that could happen.

I’m in such bad shape pain wise from sleeping on the failing mattress that we don’t want to wait a month or two or three!

We also tried a Sterns & Foster Hybrid for two weeks and sent that back because of the memory foam fumes and affects on me of nausea and dizziness (same I had with Tempurpedic). Our daughter and grandson have the same reactions with memory foam.

Maybe two blow up mattresses or the floor? :slight_smile:

39

Hi scubamom,

If I was in your shoes I would personally consider sticking with the PLB mattresses (with a better foundation of course) which are much higher quality and better value mattresses IMO than any of the Simmons mattresses you are considering.

If you let me know the store you are dealing with I’d be happy to take a look at what they carry to see if they have anything else that may be worth considering.

Phoenix

40

First off, please understand that I totally agree with you on Latex being a MUCH superior choice - don’t forget that I grew up on one (from the '50s) that I slept on for 20 years! I have always used Latex pillows (Leggett & Plat lately) and still have a latex bed in our guest room (Cantwell mattress of San Antonio/Corpus Christi) 40 years old that seems to have gotten a bit firmer over the years so I added a topper! My best friend has slept on this bed when she visits and last year when she needed a new bed I insisted she look at Latex - she ended up buying a Natura and loves it. She lives in Austin and had lots of places to look at various latex beds… lucky her!

I also think Latex is making a much needed comeback (thankfully) and hopefully will pull people away from dangerous off gassing memory foam. The various Simmons that we’ve had in the last 30 years had latex in the comfort levels (I made sure of that) instead of “mystery foams”! :slight_smile: I’m a latex fan for sure.

I’m also disturbed that the present choices of the three S’s do not have latex choices in the comfort zones or so little I don’t know why they even include that in the list of foams. Our last round of Simmons (for the 2nd home) do have latex in the upper levels. Yes, they are getting a few dips after four years, but I made the mistake of getting pillow tops. I will say the firm one with the stronger spring gauge on 13.25 is holding up better than the 15.5 gauge plush ones.

Last night, we moved back to the Simmons until we can resolve this mess. I slept really well… back is better this morning and have about decided that we’ve become so used to a “spring” bed that we probably can’t get used to the “latex” feel anymore. We are 69 and 70 - maybe we can’t teach old bodies new tricks! :slight_smile: Seriously!

In the last 4 months we’ve been through mattress hell. Started with Mattress Firm, locally, who sold us a Tempurpedic Cloud. The off gassing got me - even three weeks later it was as strong to me as the first day they delivered it) and it felt like sleeping on quicksand. They switched us to a S & F Hybrid - that was more like sleeping on a bowl of jello and the offgassing still got me. They refunded our money, bless their hearts. And we went with the Pure Latex Bliss Nature with the idea of a 2" topper PLB to soften it up. Too hard for me - my fibromyalgia screamed. I bought a 19 ILD to put under the topper… too soft! (Lordy I’m the Princess with the pea). Traded that in for the Beautiful (put the 2" topper on it) which was GREAT for 6 weeks. Then it started breaking down - we tried it without the 2" topper… that put too much pressure on my hips and legs… 2" topper went back on. We rotated it … no help with the sags… we put it 90 degrees across the bed… no better maybe worse. The 2nd Beautiful at 2nd home was way too soft - which puzzled us. ACK!

Off and on during this switcharoo deal, we had to keep returning to the Simmons upstairs in another guest room between mattress changes. And have come to this conclusion - we sleep best on a spring bed!

Our choices are Simmons, Sealy, Tempurpedic (forget it), and Corsicana. Pure Latex Bliss is out for now - unfortunately we are caught in the reorganization and have to make a decision now (for our sanity and backs).

The reason they are suggested the Simmons black line plush (not the pillowtop) is they’ve found it the most durable (yes they admit beds ain’t made like they used to be) - they have the strongest springs of the line and they get the fewest complaints. From all the research I’ve done and compared back to our present (in the guest rooms) Simmons World Class pillow-tops, that seems correct. If it doesn’t last 10 years, at our ages, it may not matter! We can’t outlive a good latex, that’s for sure! :slight_smile: or maybe I mean :frowning:

41

[quote=“scubamom” post=40996]
The reason they are suggested the Simmons black line plush (not the pillowtop) is they’ve found it the most durable (yes they admit beds ain’t made like they used to be) - they have the strongest springs of the line and they get the fewest complaints. From all the research I’ve done and compared back to our present (in the guest rooms) Simmons World Class pillow-tops, that seems correct. If it doesn’t last 10 years, at our ages, it may not matter! We can’t outlive a good latex, that’s for sure! :slight_smile: or maybe I mean :-([/quote]

If you are sleeping comfortably on a World Class then I believe you are on fairly soft springs, which is not surprising given your weights. You would want to make sure that the Black line springs have a comparable give to them. I also understand your thinking that as we get up in age (and I’m almost up there with you) that longevity is less of an issue. I have come to the conclusion that if I end up needing lower quality materials in order to get the comfort I need, so be it. Perhaps taking the “Bic pen” is a reasonable alternative :wink: .

42

Hi scubamom,

Their experience certainly doesn’t match the experience of many other retailers I know. Not only are they not built like they used to be … they aren’t built as well as many smaller manufacturers continue to build them. You would be lucky to get 10 years from them and half of that or less would be quite likely as well. While it’s true that the non pillowtops would be a better choice than a pillowtop and a firmer model with the least possible amount of polyfoam with a high quality topper would be a better choice yet … the innersprings aren’t usually the weak link of a mattress and it’s the quality of the materials in the upper layers that is the biggest reason for early foam softening and breakdown.

Unfortunately they don’t carry anything I would generally consider so in cases like this one of the strategies I would use is to buy a firmer mattress that minimizes the use of lower quality materials (regardless of whether it’s in a pillowtop or a tight top) and then use a higher quality topper on top of it to add your own comfort layer (see post #2 here). If they carry the Sealy Optimum latex line then at least they use good quality materials in the comfort layers.

@ magpie,

The world class had versions with both softer and firmer (lower gauge) springs depending on the firmness level.

The Bic pen approach is great … as long as the prices reflect the lower quality materials. The issue with many of the major manufacturers is that you end up buying Bic pen quality but paying Montblanc prices (OK … that’s a little exaggerated and Parker prices would be more accurate :)). If you decide to go with the Bic pen approach then it’s still possible to deal with better manufacturers where you can still find mattresses where the prices reflect the quality of the materials … no matter which type of materials or mattresses you prefer.

Phoenix

43

Magpie, I agree with you… here we set out to find the “perfect” sleep like the dead bed and after what we’ve been through, I’ve decided there IS no perfect bed for us! :slight_smile: But some good things have come out of our ordeal. For the 40 someodd years of our married life, hubby liked firm and I liked soft… we’ve bought more beds in our lifetime than probably anyone! This one was too soft for him so we’d get another… too hard for me… back and forth.

When we needed beds for our second home… we went to the store, told them our problem and the salesperson said try this Simmons pillowtop. I flopped down and said GREAT… hubby flopped down and said GREAT and then we looked at each other wondering which one of us had lost their mind! Turns out that Simmons had “Dual” king beds for showrooms - half was firm; half was soft! Took up less room than two queens. WOW… found out they could special order them for us… so we bought two for the second home and one for main home. LOVED them.

BUT… 3 years later… my soft side was losing height (15.5 gauge springs)… his firm side (13.25 gauge) was starting to look like a hill from my side!! Now this probably would have been OK (our guests love the beds) except for the fact that he sleeps on 1/3 of a king and I’m all over 2/3 of my side… or would like to be! Since I started getting blocked by the hill (and we couldn’t rotate the bed or I’d be on firm and he’d be on soft) my side started getting some depressions. His side was fine and still is! My side is OK in a pinch.

Bed shopping time and this is when we started our nightmare search for beds - something we could both live with. Now… he’s turned into a side sleeper in his old age… everything we’ve tried and sent back for various reasons - have been on the soft side. I’d say an 8 out of 10 comfort level. He’s be fine on everyone of the beds (except for the current PLB failing bed). At least NOW, we can have a bed the same comfort level for the first time ever!

We have moved back to the 1/2 and 1/2 Simmons until they can bring a new bed and take the poor PLB away and he’s now miserable on the Firm Simmons side!

The Black plush have spring gauge 14.75 - not as strong as the 13.25 firm but at least better than the 15.5.

Anyway, like you… we just want to be comfortable (at this point) and have a good nights sleep!!

What is the “Bic pen” thing?

44

I hear you on the 10 years or less… the good news is that one new Simmons comes to our main house and the other goes to the 2nd home. We spend 2/3 of our time one place and 1/3 time at the other… so… like the two Simmons that the PLB replaced… the main home one was wearing a bit more than the 2nd home one, but really both were fine. Plus we can now turn this Simmons… couldn’t do it before for reasons in the post above.

Sealy Optimum latex line we could probably have them order, but I really don’t want to order something that I can’t try and no one locally has it. The nearest one is probably a 3 hour drive away assuming I could find a store with one.

We will probably go with the Black Ava since it is 13" tall and we’d have room for the 2" PLB topper without buying a bunch of new sheets. Our daughter recently purchased a Hope but thought it really felt about the same as the Ava. Difference being the Hope has those little micro springs - maybe that really means more springs to sag over time?

45

Hi scubamom,

Microcoils are a good quality and durable component and are much more durable than lower quality foam materials (see this article and post #10 here).

It’s not normally the springs that are the cause of sagging in a mattress … it’s any lower quality foam on top of the springs. If you take apart a mattress that is sagging you will almost always find that the reason for the sagging is in the foam and that the springs are still fine.

You can see the specs of the Ava plush here and the Ava luxury firm here. With the exception of the 1" of 1.65 lb polyfoam which is “borderline” for a one sided mattress … the rest of the comfort materials are low quality. Some of the layers are not just “low quality/density” but “exceptionally low quality/density” (such as .95 lb polyfoam).

Phoenix

46

Well, now I’m wondering if comfort level 6 plus a 2" laytex topper is going to be soft enough for us! The Hope is rated 6.5 because of the micro coils maybe. We felt the tempurpedic cloud was a bit too soft, the Hybrid S&F was a bit too soft and the PLB was soft in one way and hard in another (hard to explain!)

Do not know the comfort level of our 4 year old Simmons pillowtop plush but probably closer to a 7 or 8?

I suppose we could always get a 3" PLB topper if we need softer, if that would help. We like the support of the springs, but need some cushioning for our tired old bods! :slight_smile:

47

Hi scubamom,

This is a fairly common comment about latex which has a combination of properties which are unique to latex that make it both soft and supportive. I agree it’s difficult to explain (it’s like trying to explain the taste of a food to someone that hasn’t tried it).

This can be so subjective and vary so much between different people, body types, and sleeping positions that there really isn’t a formula that you can use to accurately predict whether a mattress/topper combination will be a good “match” for someone until they’ve tried it in person. Outside of dragging your topper into the showroom and using it to test the combinations in person (or using one of their toppers if they still sell the same one as you have) … the most reliable way to know would be to choose a mattress firmness level based on your testing and “best judgement” taking into account the difference the topper made with the firmness of your mattress and then sleeping on the combination to assess whether it needs any further “fine tuning”. If it turns out that you need to make any additional adjustments then you can use your actual experience on the mattress/topper along with the information in post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to to help you decide on any additional materials or toppers you may need to add to your mattress. You would still have the option for example of adding an additional inch of latex to the topper you have (and wrapping them in a single cover) and you would end up with the rough equivalent of a 3" topper without having to buy the full 3".

The biggest “risk” would be to choose a mattress that is too soft because you can always add additional layers or toppers to add additional softness and pressure relief to a mattress that is too firm but there isn’t really an effective way to make a mattress that is too soft any firmer without removing and replacing some of the layers inside it.

Phoenix