Advice on new mattress that I'm considering, please.

First off, please understand that I totally agree with you on Latex being a MUCH superior choice - don’t forget that I grew up on one (from the '50s) that I slept on for 20 years! I have always used Latex pillows (Leggett & Plat lately) and still have a latex bed in our guest room (Cantwell mattress of San Antonio/Corpus Christi) 40 years old that seems to have gotten a bit firmer over the years so I added a topper! My best friend has slept on this bed when she visits and last year when she needed a new bed I insisted she look at Latex - she ended up buying a Natura and loves it. She lives in Austin and had lots of places to look at various latex beds… lucky her!

I also think Latex is making a much needed comeback (thankfully) and hopefully will pull people away from dangerous off gassing memory foam. The various Simmons that we’ve had in the last 30 years had latex in the comfort levels (I made sure of that) instead of “mystery foams”! :slight_smile: I’m a latex fan for sure.

I’m also disturbed that the present choices of the three S’s do not have latex choices in the comfort zones or so little I don’t know why they even include that in the list of foams. Our last round of Simmons (for the 2nd home) do have latex in the upper levels. Yes, they are getting a few dips after four years, but I made the mistake of getting pillow tops. I will say the firm one with the stronger spring gauge on 13.25 is holding up better than the 15.5 gauge plush ones.

Last night, we moved back to the Simmons until we can resolve this mess. I slept really well… back is better this morning and have about decided that we’ve become so used to a “spring” bed that we probably can’t get used to the “latex” feel anymore. We are 69 and 70 - maybe we can’t teach old bodies new tricks! :slight_smile: Seriously!

In the last 4 months we’ve been through mattress hell. Started with Mattress Firm, locally, who sold us a Tempurpedic Cloud. The off gassing got me - even three weeks later it was as strong to me as the first day they delivered it) and it felt like sleeping on quicksand. They switched us to a S & F Hybrid - that was more like sleeping on a bowl of jello and the offgassing still got me. They refunded our money, bless their hearts. And we went with the Pure Latex Bliss Nature with the idea of a 2" topper PLB to soften it up. Too hard for me - my fibromyalgia screamed. I bought a 19 ILD to put under the topper… too soft! (Lordy I’m the Princess with the pea). Traded that in for the Beautiful (put the 2" topper on it) which was GREAT for 6 weeks. Then it started breaking down - we tried it without the 2" topper… that put too much pressure on my hips and legs… 2" topper went back on. We rotated it … no help with the sags… we put it 90 degrees across the bed… no better maybe worse. The 2nd Beautiful at 2nd home was way too soft - which puzzled us. ACK!

Off and on during this switcharoo deal, we had to keep returning to the Simmons upstairs in another guest room between mattress changes. And have come to this conclusion - we sleep best on a spring bed!

Our choices are Simmons, Sealy, Tempurpedic (forget it), and Corsicana. Pure Latex Bliss is out for now - unfortunately we are caught in the reorganization and have to make a decision now (for our sanity and backs).

The reason they are suggested the Simmons black line plush (not the pillowtop) is they’ve found it the most durable (yes they admit beds ain’t made like they used to be) - they have the strongest springs of the line and they get the fewest complaints. From all the research I’ve done and compared back to our present (in the guest rooms) Simmons World Class pillow-tops, that seems correct. If it doesn’t last 10 years, at our ages, it may not matter! We can’t outlive a good latex, that’s for sure! :slight_smile: or maybe I mean :frowning:

[quote=“scubamom” post=40996]
The reason they are suggested the Simmons black line plush (not the pillowtop) is they’ve found it the most durable (yes they admit beds ain’t made like they used to be) - they have the strongest springs of the line and they get the fewest complaints. From all the research I’ve done and compared back to our present (in the guest rooms) Simmons World Class pillow-tops, that seems correct. If it doesn’t last 10 years, at our ages, it may not matter! We can’t outlive a good latex, that’s for sure! :slight_smile: or maybe I mean :-([/quote]

If you are sleeping comfortably on a World Class then I believe you are on fairly soft springs, which is not surprising given your weights. You would want to make sure that the Black line springs have a comparable give to them. I also understand your thinking that as we get up in age (and I’m almost up there with you) that longevity is less of an issue. I have come to the conclusion that if I end up needing lower quality materials in order to get the comfort I need, so be it. Perhaps taking the “Bic pen” is a reasonable alternative :wink: .

Hi scubamom,

Their experience certainly doesn’t match the experience of many other retailers I know. Not only are they not built like they used to be … they aren’t built as well as many smaller manufacturers continue to build them. You would be lucky to get 10 years from them and half of that or less would be quite likely as well. While it’s true that the non pillowtops would be a better choice than a pillowtop and a firmer model with the least possible amount of polyfoam with a high quality topper would be a better choice yet … the innersprings aren’t usually the weak link of a mattress and it’s the quality of the materials in the upper layers that is the biggest reason for early foam softening and breakdown.

Unfortunately they don’t carry anything I would generally consider so in cases like this one of the strategies I would use is to buy a firmer mattress that minimizes the use of lower quality materials (regardless of whether it’s in a pillowtop or a tight top) and then use a higher quality topper on top of it to add your own comfort layer (see post #2 here). If they carry the Sealy Optimum latex line then at least they use good quality materials in the comfort layers.

@ magpie,

The world class had versions with both softer and firmer (lower gauge) springs depending on the firmness level.

The Bic pen approach is great … as long as the prices reflect the lower quality materials. The issue with many of the major manufacturers is that you end up buying Bic pen quality but paying Montblanc prices (OK … that’s a little exaggerated and Parker prices would be more accurate :)). If you decide to go with the Bic pen approach then it’s still possible to deal with better manufacturers where you can still find mattresses where the prices reflect the quality of the materials … no matter which type of materials or mattresses you prefer.

Phoenix

Magpie, I agree with you… here we set out to find the “perfect” sleep like the dead bed and after what we’ve been through, I’ve decided there IS no perfect bed for us! :slight_smile: But some good things have come out of our ordeal. For the 40 someodd years of our married life, hubby liked firm and I liked soft… we’ve bought more beds in our lifetime than probably anyone! This one was too soft for him so we’d get another… too hard for me… back and forth.

When we needed beds for our second home… we went to the store, told them our problem and the salesperson said try this Simmons pillowtop. I flopped down and said GREAT… hubby flopped down and said GREAT and then we looked at each other wondering which one of us had lost their mind! Turns out that Simmons had “Dual” king beds for showrooms - half was firm; half was soft! Took up less room than two queens. WOW… found out they could special order them for us… so we bought two for the second home and one for main home. LOVED them.

BUT… 3 years later… my soft side was losing height (15.5 gauge springs)… his firm side (13.25 gauge) was starting to look like a hill from my side!! Now this probably would have been OK (our guests love the beds) except for the fact that he sleeps on 1/3 of a king and I’m all over 2/3 of my side… or would like to be! Since I started getting blocked by the hill (and we couldn’t rotate the bed or I’d be on firm and he’d be on soft) my side started getting some depressions. His side was fine and still is! My side is OK in a pinch.

Bed shopping time and this is when we started our nightmare search for beds - something we could both live with. Now… he’s turned into a side sleeper in his old age… everything we’ve tried and sent back for various reasons - have been on the soft side. I’d say an 8 out of 10 comfort level. He’s be fine on everyone of the beds (except for the current PLB failing bed). At least NOW, we can have a bed the same comfort level for the first time ever!

We have moved back to the 1/2 and 1/2 Simmons until they can bring a new bed and take the poor PLB away and he’s now miserable on the Firm Simmons side!

The Black plush have spring gauge 14.75 - not as strong as the 13.25 firm but at least better than the 15.5.

Anyway, like you… we just want to be comfortable (at this point) and have a good nights sleep!!

What is the “Bic pen” thing?

I hear you on the 10 years or less… the good news is that one new Simmons comes to our main house and the other goes to the 2nd home. We spend 2/3 of our time one place and 1/3 time at the other… so… like the two Simmons that the PLB replaced… the main home one was wearing a bit more than the 2nd home one, but really both were fine. Plus we can now turn this Simmons… couldn’t do it before for reasons in the post above.

Sealy Optimum latex line we could probably have them order, but I really don’t want to order something that I can’t try and no one locally has it. The nearest one is probably a 3 hour drive away assuming I could find a store with one.

We will probably go with the Black Ava since it is 13" tall and we’d have room for the 2" PLB topper without buying a bunch of new sheets. Our daughter recently purchased a Hope but thought it really felt about the same as the Ava. Difference being the Hope has those little micro springs - maybe that really means more springs to sag over time?

Hi scubamom,

Microcoils are a good quality and durable component and are much more durable than lower quality foam materials (see this article and post #10 here).

It’s not normally the springs that are the cause of sagging in a mattress … it’s any lower quality foam on top of the springs. If you take apart a mattress that is sagging you will almost always find that the reason for the sagging is in the foam and that the springs are still fine.

You can see the specs of the Ava plush here and the Ava luxury firm here. With the exception of the 1" of 1.65 lb polyfoam which is “borderline” for a one sided mattress … the rest of the comfort materials are low quality. Some of the layers are not just “low quality/density” but “exceptionally low quality/density” (such as .95 lb polyfoam).

Phoenix

Well, now I’m wondering if comfort level 6 plus a 2" laytex topper is going to be soft enough for us! The Hope is rated 6.5 because of the micro coils maybe. We felt the tempurpedic cloud was a bit too soft, the Hybrid S&F was a bit too soft and the PLB was soft in one way and hard in another (hard to explain!)

Do not know the comfort level of our 4 year old Simmons pillowtop plush but probably closer to a 7 or 8?

I suppose we could always get a 3" PLB topper if we need softer, if that would help. We like the support of the springs, but need some cushioning for our tired old bods! :slight_smile:

Hi scubamom,

This is a fairly common comment about latex which has a combination of properties which are unique to latex that make it both soft and supportive. I agree it’s difficult to explain (it’s like trying to explain the taste of a food to someone that hasn’t tried it).

This can be so subjective and vary so much between different people, body types, and sleeping positions that there really isn’t a formula that you can use to accurately predict whether a mattress/topper combination will be a good “match” for someone until they’ve tried it in person. Outside of dragging your topper into the showroom and using it to test the combinations in person (or using one of their toppers if they still sell the same one as you have) … the most reliable way to know would be to choose a mattress firmness level based on your testing and “best judgement” taking into account the difference the topper made with the firmness of your mattress and then sleeping on the combination to assess whether it needs any further “fine tuning”. If it turns out that you need to make any additional adjustments then you can use your actual experience on the mattress/topper along with the information in post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to to help you decide on any additional materials or toppers you may need to add to your mattress. You would still have the option for example of adding an additional inch of latex to the topper you have (and wrapping them in a single cover) and you would end up with the rough equivalent of a 3" topper without having to buy the full 3".

The biggest “risk” would be to choose a mattress that is too soft because you can always add additional layers or toppers to add additional softness and pressure relief to a mattress that is too firm but there isn’t really an effective way to make a mattress that is too soft any firmer without removing and replacing some of the layers inside it.

Phoenix

Thanks for all the info! I really wish we had not gotten caught in Latex Internationals problems. I have no doubt they will come out of this eventually, it just isn’t going to be in time for our needs. :frowning:

I’m seriously considering going with the Hope and the Micro coils if that might give us a tiny bit more softness and like you said is better than more bad foam! However, it looks to me like both the Ava and Hope have 1 1/2" of foam in that area of the mattress so the only thing it might affect is the comfort level.

1 1/2" Plush comfort Foam verses 1 1/2" of memory foam. Probably 6 of one bad foam and a dozen of another! What happened to using Playtex in these spring mattresses! :frowning:

Hi scubamom,

For the most part … their chapter 11 isn’t really having a significant effect on their day to day business operations outside of some delays and they are almost back in full production so I’m not sure why the store you are dealing with is having issues in dealing with them (or are saying they are having in dealing with them).

I know other retailers that are are still in “business almost as normal” mode with just some delays in their dealings with them.

It’s possible that there could be some “other reasons” for what they are telling you

Phoenix

They said they would reorder the Beautifuls, but had no idea about when they might receive them. We are trying the 2" latex topper on the Simmons and it doesn’t seem to be working very well… we’ve got motion of both of us going on… he rolls over and I feel it, and vice versa. It also feels like a weird hybrid between springs on the bottom and a jello foam on the top, which of course it is, but not in a good way.

I’m sorta back to the foundation issue. I’ll call them in the morning and ask if it is suppose to have a top on those wide spaced slats. Can you check with your retailers and see what they say? Now that we have the topper back off the PLB, turned it from 90 degrees and it’s back the the right position, it is contouring itself back to the raised rim around the edges, ridge in the middle, and sinks down the middle of each side. It’s almost like they either put the foundations upside down or the factory left the solid top off the slats.

It’s getting crazier and crazier!

Hi scubamom,

It’s supposed to have a top surface of high strength corrugated cardboard. If yours doesn’t have it then it would be defective (which based on your feedback seems to clearly be the case).

Phoenix

Scubamom,
When I picked up my new PLB foundation a few weeks ago from my local PLB retailer they told me that their PLB orders were only being delayed 1 to 2 weeks. So don’t let the Chapter 11 thing scare you. They are doing business as almost usual.

It appears that your retailer is not trying hard enough to contact them. You can contact them yourself. Their phone number is 404- 260-7421. Their email address is [email protected]. They answered all my emails within 24 hours.

Check the law tags on your PLB foundations to be certain that they are PLB foundations. Mine says that it was manufactured in NC, the fabric is an exact match to my mattress, and the top surface is a piece of corrugated cardboard.

Y’all are a fountain of info! OK… I looked again… fabric same as mattress… thick fabric over top of foundation, so I’m going by feel… it FEELS like it is put together like the picture you uploaded… let me see if I can paste that here (maybe Phoenix could help fix if this doesn’t work.) Although BobP’s must be a Queen, so ours isn’t as wide and there is two of them under our King.

There is not any sort of hard top on the slats… they are open… I can push my hand down between them about 1 1/2" before the fabric stops me.

I can feel the side to side slats about 9" apart…the first one at head and foot start 9" in which means there is a lot of open space blocks there… nothing much holding up those parts of bed. There’s a flat (wooden) support running head to foot under the slats - which would maybe help brace the slats.

Basically if you put our bed on your picture with the foundation turned upside down that’s what you’d visually see with only cloth over it.

Hmmm…

P.S. The business who has been supplying our many beds at both houses is located near our 2nd home 3 hours away and is a great outfit with super staff. I trust them completely - never dealt with such nice people. However, with the distance between, we are trying to work this out phone wise. If this was the bed up there, they’d been over in a flash.

Unfortunately, the only local business who used to carry PLB no longer carries them, so I can’t run over and look at their foundations.

Call it long distance work this problem out.

Scubamom,
From your description of the foundations they appear to be PLB foundations. Their twin foundations may be manufactured by a different company than their queen foundation. Could be the reason why the top is not covered by a piece of corrugated cardboard and there is 9" spaces between the slats. I calculated ~7" spaces between the slates on my queen foundation. Try contacting a PLB CSR about this.

Correct me if I’m wrong, you are saying that each twin foundation has a center head to foot support; unlike my queen foundation that has 2 head to foot supports (not counting the side supports), neither of which is in the center.

So we are back then to what type of steel frame you have supporting the foundations. This is the steel frame I’m currently using. I purchased it before I got the PLB foundation assuming that the foundation would have a conventional center head to toe support. Due to PLB’s unconventional foundation design the head to toe supports rest on the cross rails, not the center beam. The frame though is heavy duty so I’m not getting any sagging. With your foundations this type of frame would possibly work well since 1 side of each foundation would rest on the center beam.

Is your current steel frame strong enough to give proper support to the sleeping area of the foundation??

If I knew then what I know now I would have purchased either this foundation or this foundation without a steel frame.

Scubamom,
From your description of the foundations they appear to be PLB foundations. Their twin foundations may be manufactured by a different company than their queen foundation. Could be the reason why the top is not covered by a piece of corrugated cardboard and there is 9" spaces between the slats. I calculated ~7" spaces between the slates on my queen foundation, still way too much for a heavy latex mattress. Try contacting a PLB CSR about this.

Correct me if I’m wrong, you are saying that each twin foundation has a center head to foot support; unlike my queen foundation that has 2 head to foot supports (not counting the side supports), neither of which is in the center.

Let me try to clarify this. If each twin foundation also has a center head to toe support then, including the side supports, each foundation would have 3 head to toe supports, 6 total for both. My queen foundation has, including the side supports, 4 head to toe supports.

So we are back then to what type of steel frame you have supporting the foundations. This is the steel frame I’m currently using. I purchased it before I got the PLB foundation assuming that the foundation would have a conventional center head to toe support. Due to PLB’s unconventional foundation design the head to toe supports rest on the cross rails, not the center beam. The frame though is heavy duty so I’m not getting any sagging. With your foundations this type of frame would possibly work well since 1 side of each foundation would rest on the center beam.

Is your current steel frame strong enough to give proper support to the sleeping area of the foundation??

If I knew then what I know now I would have purchased either this foundation or this foundation without a steel frame.

Yes, you have the right idea with “should be” 3 head to toe on each side for a total of 6 for the king.

What we DO have is on the left foundation one head to toe 21" over (39" frame) and another 6" over… only TWO on that side and not in the center or spaced in any form that makes sense. On the right foundation, one head to toe is about 22" over and about 6" over from that… only TWO not centered or spaced evenly.

We also have staples sticking up around the inside edge of the foundation bottom here and there that are wearing through the fabric and possibly the mattress when it is put back into place.

Definitely a sloppy built set of foundations!


Our mattress store (3 hours away from me) and I have decided that we should buy a tempurpedic set of ECRU (not the new grey) foundations to put under it and see what happens. I’ll save the PLB foundations and we’ll get them back to the store when either we head up there or they come this way.

Now, whether the mattress is now “bent out of shape” permanently from being on the incomplete foundations we won’t know until we get the solid ones under it.

Our mattress business is still having trouble getting PLB to return their calls. They’ve been carrying the PLB line for at least 3 years as I remember which is the first time we started buying mattresses from them.

This sounds like a plan to see if the mattress recovers.

We really do not have any room on our floors for it, plus wouldn’t be able to physically move it. Either way we will have to have a foundation of some sort to put it on while we sort this out. Sleeping on it might actually help see what happens. (and we are of the age that we can’t really get on a floor bed or back up very easily!)

If it doesn’t recover, they will replace it and we can use the solid top Tempurpedic foundation with whatever we put on it (be it another Beautiful or whatever).

From what I’ve seen of our half built PLB foundation, I"m not sure I’d want to use any of theirs.

UPDATE: The new foundation is coming tomorrow… as the mattress company recommended, we are getting the older, heavy built Ecru ones what weigh 144# for both (72# each) rather than the newer more lightweight “Grey” ones that are 98# for both. Supposedly the older model ones are built quite well.

Can hardly wait to see what the poor bent out of shape mattress does on it. Let’s hope it is so happy to be flat that it does a tap dance and gets back to normal! (so hubby and I can get back to normal and loving it as our best bed ever!)

more to come…