Back from the shop and need help!

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
21

Thanks for listening to me-I am going crazy here!

I am now seriously considering the latex mattress idea-but am really worried about it being hot. It just seems that pocket springs allow air to circulate but latex is so dense. I am scared!

Here is a latex mattress from the shop I went to yesterday

bedsplus.com.au but it has memory foam in its top layer

I think this bedsplus.com.au is the pocket spring bed with the memory foam comfort zone that I forgot to link to the other day.

If I go latex what is the question I need to be asking: “I want to try a Dunlop/Talalay latex mattress of ____ thickness, with a _____ comfort layer…”

Thanks!

22

Hi great southern land,

The top few inches (comfort layers) of your mattress will have much more to do with how hot a mattress sleeps than the support system that is below it. The comfort layers are the part that is right next to your body and the more breathable they are the cooler the mattress will sleep.

The closer to your body the layer is … the more effect it will have on how hot you sleep. Of the three types of foam that are used in these layers … latex is the most breathable (the most open cells in the foam), polyfoam is next, and memory foam is generally the least breathable and the hottest. There is a range of breathablity and temperature effect in each category but in general this will hold true. There are two types of latex … Dunlop and Talalay … and of these two talalay is the most breathable and the coolest of all foams.

The quilting and ticking will also make a difference and natural fibers like wool in the quilting will also help to regulate temperature. I would tend to avoid synthetic materials in the ticking which tend to be hotter than natural fabrics.

So in general … a latex comfort layer with wool in the quilting and a ticking made of a natural material like cotton is the coolest out of all the foam constructions. This will hold true no matter what is used for the support system under it which makes much less difference in how hot a mattress sleeps.

One other thing that will also make a difference is how soft or firm the foam on top is. The softer the foam is and the deeper you sink into it the more of an insulating foam layer you will have around you. While it is important to sink in enough to relieve pressure … more than necessary can increase the sleeping temperature.

There are other more specialized materials that can have an effect on temperature but they are not as important as the type of foam in the comfort layers and the materials used in the ticking and quilting.

The two links you included that have the memory foam in the comfort layers are using “hotter” foam. Given your concerns and preferences … it becomes even more important to know the actual materials that are in your mattress and to work with a knowledgeable outlet and salesperson who is an expert on mattress materials and wants you to know exactly what is in every layer of your mattress rather than makes you “work” to find out.

Phoenix

23

Hi

So what I am looking for is a latex mattress with a latex comfort layer, with natural fibre quilting/ticking?

I have noticed that several retailers here [some of the independents you listed] note in their product descriptions that they only use Dunlop processed latex. Is this to be totally avoided?

Thanks

24

Hi great southern land,

I would say that the latex comfort layer is the most important along with the ticking quilting. The support system underneath could be high quality polyfoam, an innerspring, or latex … depending on your preferences and the overall feel you prefer and of course your budget.

Both natural Dunlop latex and Talalay latex are high quality materials. Talalay may be more breathable but Dunlop is also a very good choice compared to other foams, especially with a natural fiber quilting. Dunlop is also firmer and less lively than Talalay and many people prefer Talalay in a comfort layer because it comes in softer versions than Dunlop. The choice is more about individual preference though and I would make your choice based on whether a particular mattress provides good pressure relief, good spinal alignment, and feels the way you want a mattress to feel overall. Both types of latex are very durable.

Phoenix

25

Back from more looking! I went to 3 stores-2 of which said they no longer carry latex only mattresses as they just don’t sell.

Shop 1-I tried 2 mattresses that fitted the profile. Both were pocket spring, with a 50mm natural or Talalay latex comfort layer, with wool quilting. These both had foam in them between the pocket springs and the latex. The ocket springs were much smaller than a ‘standard’ sized pocket spring he showed me. Any comments?

Shop 2-Bed A] pocket springs, 50mm of high density foam rated ‘25-60’, 25mm of Brussels or was it was Belgium Dunlop latex, then a cashmere underlay of 350g, topped with 25mm of bamboo quilting. The pocket spring system was one that had a spring inside each spring. The link to the bed is http://www.sleepys.com.au/store/Luxury.html I think I linked to one of this range last week but now I have more details about its innards!

Bed B] This bed http://www.sleepys.com.au/store/Spine-Align-Mattress/ which all he could tell me it had 25mm of latex in it.

Shop 3-No pocket spring with latex top mattresses at all.

26

Oh I know what I wanted to ask. Some of the beds have a foam box around the outside to supposedly increase the sleeping surface area ie so you can sleep nearer the edge and not fall off, or feel like you might. Myth or not?

And one other bed I tried today but haven’t many details on yet used LFK pocket springs. I haven’t come across this phrase before.

Thanks

27

Hi great southern land,

A simple rule you can follow to identify an outlet that is worth buying from is that if they can’t or won’t tell you what is inside the mattress … layer by layer … take them off your list as a possibility. This will exclude many chain stores and most major brands. What is left will generally be a better source of quality and value.

It can be frustrating to learn enough to become an expert in every material that can be used in a mattress. While some general knowledge is great … getting too specific can lead to more confusion than clarification in many cases. Your best friend is an outlet or a salesperson who already is an expert in mattress materials and construction and is willing to show you what is inside every mattress they sell and want to educate you more than sell you. These types of people and outlets who actually want you to compare the materials in their mattresses because they know their mattress has better quality and value than the “competition” are generally smaller sleep shops who carry smaller brands and factory direct outlets.

When a salesperson doesn’t know exactly what is in every mattress they sell … layer by layer … it is generally a sign to leave the store and go somewhere where this information is not only available but encouraged.

A foam box around the outside of an innerspring is a cheap form of edge support. Polyfoam is not as durable as a steel re-inforced edge or other ways of edge reinforcing so it is a way to reduce the steel (or latex in some cases) and replace about 20% of it with cheaper less durable materials.

LFK springs are an unknotted offset coil. They are not pocket springs although they re a good quality innerspring.

There are often several reasons that many chain stores don’t carry latex mattresses. First they last a very long time and they don’t have the same type of “planned obsolescence” as mattresses that use lower quality materials. Second is that with the typical profit margin of each step of the supply chain of the major brands and chain stores, latex mattresses end up being priced too high. This is why smaller sleep shops and especially factory direct manufacturers are the best place to buy mattresses that use higher quality materials at better prices. Finally … most chain store employees have no idea about what materials are better than another and only sell their mattresses based on the stories they are told and your “showroom experience” which is a very subjective and “managed” environment. They have one purpose … to sell you a mattress that produces a good profit margin. Better outlets are much more focused on selling you a mattress that is suitable to you, will work on lower profit margins, and have less mouths to feed.

So the “goal” becomes to identify the best outlets who are the most willing to share good information with you rather than trying to find the best mattress among blind choices where you have no way of knowing exactly what is inside the mattress you are considering or a salesperson who is more focused on what they want than what you want.

Phoenix

28

Could you help me translate these mattresses?

Thanks

29

Hi great southern land,

I think that you may be making this more complicated than it needs to be. The first thing I would do is eliminate most of the outlets that you are looking at. You can do this by eliminating every outlet that can’t or won’t (or even doesn’t want to) first tell you every layer that is in every mattress they sell if you ask and who also have the expertise to do the translating for you (tell you why it is a good or not so good material). Good manufacturers and outlets want you to know this information and have the knowledge to tell you what it means. Most chain stores or outlets that sell mostly national brands will only give you the bare minimum information and even then it will be incomplete and they won’t know how to translate it in any meaningful way. It’s not enough to know just what is in the mattress. You have to know what this information means and how the layers are put together.

Both of these mattresses have “unknown” ingredients and rather than going through the frustrating experience of having someone else translate the information for you … and even then not being able to because the information is incomplete … I would simply eliminate these types of outlets. The fact that you need to come here (which I welcome as it makes a good example of why the industry is so confusing) tells me that the outlets you are going to should be eliminated from your consideration. It takes far too long and is just too frustrating for most people to try to fill in the information that they are not giving you and it’s even worse if you have just a little information but are then left on your own to try to figure out what it means or fill in the gaps. When you are mattress shopping … you shouldn’t have to become an expert. The goal should be to know enough to recognize when someone knows what they are talking about. The most important job is finding an expert who is on your side and who sells mattresses that are in the budget range you are looking for.

These types of outlets (that don’t provide complete information about the layers of their mattresses) are not worth your business and I would put your efforts into first finding and then talking with the ones that are more open and transparent and want you to know what is in the mattresses they sell and the details of their construction. These are the people who encourage you to make meaningful comparisons rather than make this difficult.

Shop 1 is missing information about the pocket spring itself. Talalay latex is good and wool quilting is also good. The foam between the pocket springs and the latex is an unknown. What type of foam and how thick is it? The smaller coils probably mean a smaller diameter which means that there are more coils in the mattress but this is just a guess and you shouldn’t have to guess at anything. There are just too many unknowns, not the least of which is how did it work for pressure relief and alignment and how close was it to your preferences. Even if this was a mattress that had great construction … the odds are pretty good that you would be paying too much for it compared to an outlet that would both tell you exactly what was in it and also tell you the quality of each ingredient and how it was put together so you didn’t have to do the detailed research to find out yourself.

Shop 2 is a chain store I understand. 25 - 60 is a metric foam description which is not used in North America. It probably means 25 kg/cu meter which is the density and the 60 means how many newtons of force it takes to compress the mattress 25% of its thickness. 25 kg/cubic meter translates to 1.7 lbs/cu ft which is low to mid grade foam. 60 newtons equates to about 13.5 ILD if it is measured at 25% compression which means soft foam. The problem is that this information probably won’t help you because it doesn’t tell you about the construction methods that are used for the mattress which is very important when you are dealing with polyfoam especially. The description on the site says there is hypersoft foam in the quilting and says the latex is 75 mm. It also doesn’t say anything about a coil in coil pocketed innerspring. Perhaps the link goes to a different mattress?

In any case … the outlet you are buying a mattress from should provide all this information and if they don’t or won’t … I would just pass them by. Finding an outlet that will educate you and explain why their mattresses have real value compared to others based on the materials in it and construction methods they use is perhaps the most important part of mattress shopping. In other words finding an expert rather than becoming an expert is the simplest way to go.

Your goal should be to know enough basic information to know the difference between an expert (who focuses on materials and construction and why they are used in the mattress) and a story teller.

It’s quite likely that the guidelines here are just as applicable to Australia as they are in North America. I would first rule out the majority of outlets and brands and then focus on the few better choices that are remaining as that is where your best quality and value is likely to be.

Phoenix

30

Thanks again. The problem I seem to be facing is that I have found only one indepedent manufacturer here. I am going to see them tomorrow, but if they don’t have what I want or are priced out of my range then I am going to need to work with what I have access to. It just appears that if none of the big name brands make a bed that satisfies the excellent criteria you have and there are no local indepedent people [bar this one] — then what on earth do I do!

I totally appreciate your emphasis on using independent people as they know what is in a bed, but in the scenario I possibly face, I am so confused as you suggest avoiding any brand name bed.

I will go to the place I have found tomorrow, then see what comes from that.

Thanks.

31

Hi great southern land,

I certainly can sympathize with you.

If I was in your shoes … here’s what I would do …

First of all … I would do most of the work on the phone. I would never even visit a mattress outlet until I had called them and asked a few questions to get a sense of what I could expect if I went there. I would certainly try to focus on local manufacturers but I would also call other outlets as some of them may sell good quality and value mattresses other than major brands.

What I would be looking for is an outlet that could tell me exactly what was in every mattress they sold and was staffed by people who knew what they were talking about. They would be comfortable with questions about different materials, foam density, ILD, and would be happy to show me layer by layer what was in the mattresses they sold.

In essence … I would be looking for the outlets that were worth going to staffed by people who knew what they were talking about rather than looking for a specific mattress. I would be looking FIRST for the quality of the outlet and the knowledge of the staff and their willingness and ability to help.

Typical questions I would ask would be …

Do you have a spec sheet for all the mattresses you sell so I can find out what is in every layer of your mattresses?

Do you have any mattresses that have less than an inch of polyfoam in the comfort layers?

Do you sell all latex mattresses or mattresses that have latex over innersprings with no polyfoam (or at least no more than an inch)?

Do you have people that work there that are comfortable talking about foam density, foam type (as in Talalay or Dunlop latex), and foam density?

What would you recommend for people who tend to sleep hot and why?

What do you believe are the mattresses with the least motion transfer and why?

I am looking primarily for a mattress with either latex over innersprings or latex over a latex core (with at most an inch of polyfoam in the quilting) … do you carry anything like this?

If they carry something that they think might be suitable … ask them how much it would cost in the size you are looking for.

Tell them your rough weight and height and sleeping positions and ask them which mattress (using the guidelines you have given them) they think may be suitable for you and why.

Ask them if they have any sales and if they do … how big a discount do they normally give (sales with big discounts are usually a warning sign and typically mean that you will be exposed to a false sense of urgency and sales pressure in the store to buy a mattress they want to sell to you).

In asking your questions … remember that there are only 3 types of foam. Memory foam, latex, and polyfoam. Every type of foam will be one of these. If you come across words like “biofoam” or “ecofoam” or similar sounding words … it will still be one of these 3. Make sure they can tell you which one it is.

Hopefully you are catching my drift here. Some of the outlets will do everything they can to get you into the store and avoid answering your questions unless you are standing in front of them where they can use sales techniques on you. Others will be happy to answer your questions and work with you as much as you need to.

Once you have done this … you will have a much clearer idea of which stores to visit.

Don’t forget too that just like here in the US and Canada … sometimes your best value may be in buying a mattress from an online or distant outlet that specializes in helping people to buy mattresses over the phone or online. Many of these can “duplicate” a mattress that you like in a store using the same or better quality materials and with better value. These are also options worth exploring if there are few outlets near you that “pass” your phone “interviews” :). Of course they would be subject to the same type of “interview” as well.

In looking through the list … there certainly seem to be some better options but again … I would do almost all of your preliminary work on the phone. I certainly wouldn’t visit any outlet where you didn’t know ahead of time that your experience would be a good one and where you also didn’t know ahead of time that they had at least one or two mattresses that you specifically wanted to try and that seemed close to what you wanted.

Phoenix

32

Hi

I went up to the manufacturing place of Simply The Best beds. I liked that the guy I spoke to was the guy who designs and makes the beds, but he uses a lot of foam. He also started getting almost suspicious of why I was asking so many questions and writing things down. He also swore that foam won’t break down-do I believe this, from the manufacturer’s mouth?!

Today I spoke to one of the small shops on that list from ealier in the thread. I have found a company now who will customise a mattress! Ican have a pocket spring mattress with 75mm of latex as a comfort layer, with no foam in the comfort layer. I think maybe I am getting somewhere. She said you don’t have to have the foam box around the outside of the mattress, although many beds do. This is 10cm thick.

Thanks

33

Hi Great southern land,

The most important part of the durability of polyurethane foams is their density (I’m assuming you are talking about polyform here?). There are also various construction methods that can make a difference in the durability of a mattress (such as tufting or stretching the foam over the border rods and using hog rings to secure them in the case of innerspring mattresses). “Foam” comes in three different types (polyform, memory foam, and latex foam) and which type of foam and the grade and type that is being used will make the biggest difference of all. For me, one of the biggest tests of any manufacturer is that they can and will tell you the density of any polyfoam they are using (as well as any other layers). With polyfoam in particular … the grade of foam is a very important part of durability. Did he tell you what the density of the foam was (it would probably be a metric measurement that is different from the lbs. per cu. ft. we use here).

I know local manufacturers for example that use 1.8 lb density HD polyfoam in the comfort layers of their mattress which are using construction methods that lead to a very durable mattress that can last for a dozen years of more … while others using lower grades of polyfoam or lesser construction methods make mattresses that can break down very quickly. In this case even the firmness of the HD foam can make a difference (firmer will have less mechanical stress so the more durable mattresses using these types of foam will tend to be firmer than the “ultra soft” forms that are more typically used).

Thats good news too about finding the local manufacturer. The “foam box” around the innerspring is normally designed to make a firmer edge for sitting and my only concern would be the durability of the foam used and how it was constructed and attached. They should certainly be able to answer these types of questions for you.

I would also do a few searches for online vendors throughout Australia (that make their own mattresses) as even if you don’t order from them they are often a source of good information and may be a good reference in terms of pricing and value.

Phoenix

34

More looking!

Today I tried a bed that was all latex.

The comfort layer of latex was about 35mm deep with an ILD of 25. This was topped by a quilted layer of about 20mm wool lofting with cotton top.

The core layer of latex was 36 ILD.

Having looked at all the information on this website I can see that as a side sleeper I need 2-3 inches of comfort layer, which is about 50mm. The bed I saw today is about 55mm of comfort layer. Your recommended ILD for the comfort layer is 19-24, so the one I saw is at the top end of that.

As a side sleeper is the deeper the comfort layer the better, up to about 3 inches?

What do you think about these ILD specifications?

Hope you had a great holiday time.

gsl

35

Hi great southern land,

The mattress you tried was almost 1.5" of 25 ILD (converting to inches) and over 36 ILD latex would be a little thinner and/or firmer than most side sleepers would prefer however the guidelines I mention are only starting points for testing because your own personal experience is more important than any “averages” or “starting points”. If you test a mattress and it provides both the pressure relief and alignment that works well for you … then it is “right” for you regardless of what is “right” for anyone else.

While this (2") would be more “typical” for a back sleeper (about 3" - 4" in the range of 19 - 24 ILD over a firmer support core would be more “typical” for a side sleeper), your own experience would be the most important factor. There are so many variables in terms of how the mattress is layered, the ticking and quilting, and each person’s weight, shape, and preferences, it is almost impossible to tell without reference points based on feedback from a few specific mattresses what the “best” layering and ILD would be for any particular individual. In other words how you felt on each of these mattresses would be more important than how “typical” they were.

The “best” thickness and ILD for a comfort layer is the one that provides enough pressure relief for each individual and “fills in the gaps” in the body profile for that person. Thickness and softness work “hand in hand” and both are an equally important part of mattress construction. My personal preference is to use the thinnest and firmest layer that “works” well for each individual because this makes it easier to also have the best alignment.

For example … if you found that a 3" comfort layer of 25 ILD was still giving you pressure points and you were lighter and smaller … I would tend to make it a little softer before I made it thicker (the comfort layer may be too firm for a lighter person but the thickness may be “just right”). If I was heavier and larger … my tendency would be to to go a little thicker and adjust the thickness before I adjusted the softness (the ILD may be good for a heavier person but they just need it a little thicker).

A good way to think of it is the bigger “gaps” there are in a persons shape or the wider their shoulders are, the thicker a comfort layer they may need (it needs to be thick enough to fill in the gaps and to allow the shoulders to sink into it before they are “stopped” by the support layers underneath it). The lighter a person is … the softer a comfort layer they may need (to “allow” the lighter shoulders to sink in enough). So a person with a less curvy body shape but who was very light and a side sleeper may be able to “get away with” a 2" comfort layer in the range of 19 ILD (even though this is thinner than the normal side sleeper range) or in some cases even softer. If they were “curvier” but the same weight … they would likely need something thicker but the same ILD. If they were heavier but the same less curvy shape … they would likely need something firmer and possibly thicker (more in the normal range of thickness).

Hope this helps … and it seems you’re getting closer. Don’t forget though that your own testing is more important in the end than “general guidelines” and once you’ve tested a few mattresses then you will have some reference points that can be better pointers to both thickness and firmness.

And I had a great holiday time … and more to come as one of my daughters is visiting tomorrow. I hope you did too :slight_smile:

Phoenix