Brentwood Memory Foam

[phoenix]

Hi dzignr_tastz,

how does the consumer really know that’s what they’re getting in the end, or if the manufacturer is even being truthful in their specifications (unless it’s simply a big time manufacturer with a good reputation and some sort of regulation)?

It could be argued that you can’t (even with large manufacturers) and the same would hold true for any consumer purchase where you would need to tear it apart to really know what was inside it. You could also weigh every mattress that you purchased to see if the specs came out close to the weight but in practical terms you would be reliant on the reputation and integrity of the manufacturer. It would be a big risk for a reliable manufacturer to misrepresent foam densities because they can be calculated from the weight and volume of the material and it’s much easier to lose a good reputation than to develop it.

This is one of the reasons that I so often suggest that who you buy from and their knowledge, experience, transparency, and integrity can be one of the most important parts of a successful mattress purchase.

I guess that part of the knowledge equation just comes from actually testing well-known mattresses of different materials in-store (not that I would feel great about wasting someone’s time to ‘edumacate’ me and then turn around and buy from someone else based on comparison)?

You can’t “feel” or see the quality of a material and the “suitability” or “comfort” of a mattress in terms of PPP is very different from assessing the quality/durability of a mattress because even very low quality materials can feel the same as higher quality materials in a showroom or when the mattress is new … they just don’t last as long. Suitability, durability, and the other parts of each person’s personal value equation are all important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase (see post #13 here).

(My - lengthy, if you hadn’t guessed - Amazon review, under the same name, kind of explains how all this came to be if you have some - more - time to waste - LOL!)

I read it when you first mentioned it … and like others that are probably reading it as well I’m still waiting for the “punch line”

Anyway - thanks again, and sorry for taking up so much of your undoubtedly valuable weekend!

No problem at all … you are asking some good questions and I don’t stray far from the forum anyway … on weekends or weekdays.

Phoenix

[dzignr_tastz]

@brass

Hi dzignr_tastz, as far as multiple companies belonging to one another it is very common. From Zinus, parent company to Spa Sensations, Vivon, Night Therapy, BestPriceMattress etc to something people may be more familiar with like Unilever brand who heads up numerous large companies like Suave bath products, Axe brand bath products, Degree, Lipton, Ben & Jerry’s, Klondike… Unilever controls over 1000 huge name brands of everything from tea bags to snack chips, ice cream and health and beauty products. Not only do they target various markets, men vs women vs different age groups, etc, some of their brands also compete and it’s a win/win.

For that matter, Tempurpedic now owns Sealy and Serta/Simmons are owned together. So instead of 4 companies, you really have 2 major corporate ownerships. Also it’s interesting to know (if wikipedia is correct on this), that Serta was founded in 1931 by not one person but 13 mattress manufacturers, became controlled by National Bedding Corporation which in turn was purchased by two private equity groups: Ares Corporate Opportunities Fund and Teachers’ Private Capital (part of the Canadian Teacher’s Pension Plan). As just a normal part of the population where Serta (and other S brands) were a part of bedding brands as a household name, and not being privy to the industry, I would have had no clue Serta was so complicated. I just assumed it was a stand alone company.

Oh… I fully understand a single, parent corporation owning and/or manufacturing many different brands of products, some that even compete with each other (P&G would be another well-known one), but there is usually some sort of well-researched marketing reason behind those ventures, like targeting men vs. women (as you stated), or different economic groups. I can also understand one mattress company buying out another (and perhaps, eventually another, and another), well-established one and not just tanking the obviously valuable corporate identity, but I also didn’t see Tempurpedic trying to flood the market with bargain-basement manufactured memory foam mattresses under several different brands all in the same store right out of the gate, either.

[brass]

Hi dsignr_tastz, the competition may not come from their own store if they’re promoting their own brands, but from others in a similar category also sold on amazon or elsewhere. They’d be competing against dreamfoam’s lineup of memory foam, night therapy, lucid etc. It sounds like whoever answered the question of densities didn’t understand the question or how to answer and gave what info they could, which would be the foam density for the memory foam and the thickness (not the density) of the core foam. This would be from people without proper education on the product or materials. Trying to determine the feel of different polyfoam densities would be hard to do. I’m sure they have a slightly different feel either in compression subtleties or weight - but for polyfoam, density doesn’t correlate to firmness. You could have low density foam (larger air pockets) that felt the same, softer or firmer than another piece of denser foam (more poly material, smaller air pockets).

I think in the end, while we spend 8hrs (give or take) a night on a mattress, it’s only one of many products we encounter day to day. No one wants to be hoodwinked by any manufacturer’s or products claims. But in the end, without being there every step of the way during the production process you (or anyone) just has to trust the company. Even if they go to the trouble to provide spec sheets, shipping labels and other ‘proof’, do we know that the proof actually applies to what we’re dealing with? I wouldn’t stress over it if the mattress is working well for you. Even confirming every small piece of evidence doesn’t guarantee a wonderful night’s sleep. As a matter of fact, from personal experience I think I lost more sleep ‘investigating’ things on my mattress hunt than I did from my wore out mattress

Phoenix, thanks for the info. I don’t know all the ins and outs but like many things in the corporate world - finance and transitions, deals, etc it seems things are constantly changing. It doesn’t surprise me there have been even more shifts in the Simmons/Serta end of things. I think too part of the confusion is just not being that involved in the business. People in general take it for granted that if it’s got a label from XYZ corp, that’s who made it start to finish. I know it doesn’t usually occur to me when confronted with products on a store shelf that I’m probably debating between the same main brand lol.

[dzignr_tastz]

[quote=“Phoenix” post=40795]Hi dzignr_tastz,

It could be argued that you can’t (even with large manufacturers) and the same would hold true for any consumer purchase where you would need to tear it apart to really know what was inside it. You could also weigh every mattress that you purchased to see if the specs came out close to the weight but in practical terms you would be reliant on the reputation and integrity of the manufacturer. It would be a big risk for a reliable manufacturer to misrepresent foam densities because they can be calculated from the weight and volume of the material and it’s much easier to lose a good reputation than to develop it.

This is one of the reasons that I so often suggest that who you buy from and their knowledge, experience, transparency, and integrity can be one of the most important parts of a successful mattress purchase.[/quote]

Good points. I’d just like to add that it would be a big risk for ANY manufacturer (reliable or not) to misrepresent their product.

You can’t “feel” or see the quality of a material and the “suitability” or “comfort” of a mattress in terms of PPP is very different from assessing the quality/durability of a mattress because even very low quality materials can feel the same as higher quality materials in a showroom or when the mattress is new … they just don’t last as long. Suitability, durability, and the other parts of each person’s personal value equation are all important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase (see post #13 here).

So in regards to densities, comfort level, and durability… aren’t higher densities more durable, but also more resilient, making them more firm, or is it possible to have a super soft, easily compressed, 5.4 lb. density, durable foam? It would seem there has to be some compromise somewhere, and while I’ve have done some reading about IFDs and the like, I am by no means an expert on it.

I read it when you first mentioned it … and like others that are probably reading it as well I’m still waiting for the “punch line”

Well that top part was posted quickly in lieu of everything I found last night (before posting here), but I guess the ultimate “punch line” will mostly depend on what the final, combined results of my research are, and what the company has to say come the first of the week. Until then, I’ll stand by the fact that given what I now know, I wouldn’t have done business with them and wouldn’t recommend it to anyone else, either.

Anyway - thanks again, and sorry for taking up so much of your undoubtedly valuable weekend!

No problem at all … you are asking some good questions and I don’t stray far from the forum anyway … on weekends or weekdays.

Phoenix[/quote]Neither do I, obviously.

[phoenix]

Hi dzignr_tastz,

So in regards to densities, comfort level, and durability… aren’t higher densities more durable, but also more resilient, making them more firm, or is it possible to have a super soft, easily compressed, 5.4 lb. density, durable foam? It would seem there has to be some compromise somewhere, and while I’ve have done some reading about IFDs and the like, I am by no means an expert on it.

With latex density is directly related to firmness (but only if you are comparing the same type and blend of latex).

With polyfoam and memory foam density is the most important factor in the durability of the material (see post #4 here and the posts it links to about the variables that can affect the durability and useful life of a mattress relative to a specific person) but any density of memory foam or polyfoam can be made in a wide range of firmness levels. Density does have more of a connection to the compression modulus of the foam which is also part of perceived firmness (see post #4 here) but it’s not directly related to comfort or firmness. There is also more about some (but not all) of the different foam specifications that can affect the feel or suitability of a mattress design in post #2 here. Resilience is a measure of the percentage rebound when you drop a steel ball on a layer of foam. Memory foam for example has almost no resilience regardless of its density because it’s a slow response material that “absorbs” energy (and turns it into heat) while latex stores energy (like an innerspring) and then bounces back and has a higher resilience than most other types of foam which is why it’s more “springy” or “bouncy”.

Phoenix

[dzignr_tastz]

@"brass" post=40797

Hi dsignr_tastz, the competition may not come from their own store if they’re promoting their own brands, but from others in a similar category also sold on amazon or elsewhere. They’d be competing against dreamfoam’s lineup of memory foam, night therapy, lucid etc. It sounds like whoever answered the question of densities didn’t understand the question or how to answer and gave what info they could, which would be the foam density for the memory foam and the thickness (not the density) of the core foam. This would be from people without proper education on the product or materials. Trying to determine the feel of different polyfoam densities would be hard to do. I’m sure they have a slightly different feel either in compression subtleties or weight - but for polyfoam, density doesn’t correlate to firmness. You could have low density foam (larger air pockets) that felt the same, softer or firmer than another piece of denser foam (more poly material, smaller air pockets).

But why create a totally different identity to compete with DreamFoam, Lucid, etc., as they were already selling memory foam mattresses under the SilverRest name (and still are). I guess perhaps they could have just wanted a ‘memory foam only’ brand…

And yeah… didn’t know, or they were just spouting random numbers off the top of their head.

So if density doesn’t really relate to softness or firmness, than what does? I know IFD basically measures softness (deflection = resistance), but what determines how much resistance there is (as there’s plenty with mine - LOL)? I was under the assumption that since air compresses more than a tangible substance (especially when allowed to flow out of it), how many air pockets there are in the foam and their size (which sounds like your description of density) would have a lot to do with softness and overall compression? I mean, if there were no air pockets whatsoever, would it not be semi-rigid?

[quote=“Phoenix” post=40800]Hi dzignr_tastz,

With latex density is directly related to firmness (but only if you are comparing the same type and blend of latex).

With polyfoam and memory foam density is the most important factor in the durability of the material (see post #4 here and the posts it links to about the variables that can affect the durability and useful life of a mattress relative to a specific person) but any density of memory foam or polyfoam can be made in a wide range of firmness levels. Density does have more of a connection to the compression modulus of the foam which is also part of perceived firmness (see post #4 here) but it’s not directly related to comfort or firmness. There is also more about some (but not all) of the different foam specifications that can affect the feel or suitability of a mattress design in post #2 here. Resilience is a measure of the percentage rebound when you drop a steel ball on a layer of foam. Memory foam for example has almost no resilience regardless of its density because it’s a slow response material that “absorbs” energy (and turns it into heat) while latex stores energy (like an innerspring) and then bounces back and has a higher resilience than most other types of foam which is why it’s more “springy” or “bouncy”.

Phoenix[/quote]

Thanks for the explanation. And while I know when we speak of “comfort”, like “beauty”, it is in the eye of the beholder, I guess I’m more focused on the term “sinking in feeling” (as I was informed), which I assume would definitely be, at least partially, related to density, as that would have more to do with the “compression modulus”. And on that same note, I believe I meant to use “resistance” (thus opposing that “sinking in feeling”) as opposed to “resilience”.

[dzignr_tastz]

@Phoenix

Hi dzignr_tastz,

With latex density is directly related to firmness (but only if you are comparing the same type and blend of latex).

With polyfoam and memory foam density is the most important factor in the durability of the material (see post #4 here and the posts it links to about the variables that can affect the durability and useful life of a mattress relative to a specific person) but any density of memory foam or polyfoam can be made in a wide range of firmness levels. Density does have more of a connection to the compression modulus of the foam which is also part of perceived firmness (see post #4 here) but it’s not directly related to comfort or firmness. There is also more about some (but not all) of the different foam specifications that can affect the feel or suitability of a mattress design in post #2 here. Resilience is a measure of the percentage rebound when you drop a steel ball on a layer of foam. Memory foam for example has almost no resilience regardless of its density because it’s a slow response material that “absorbs” energy (and turns it into heat) while latex stores energy (like an innerspring) and then bounces back and has a higher resilience than most other types of foam which is why it’s more “springy” or “bouncy”.

Phoenix

Thanks for the explanation. And while I know when we speak of “comfort”, like “beauty”, it is in the eye of the beholder, I guess I’m more focused on the term “sinking in feeling” (as I was informed), which I assume would definitely be, at least partially, related to density, as that would have more to do with the “compression modulus”. And on that same note, I believe I meant to use “resistance” (thus opposing that “sinking in feeling”) as opposed to “resilience”.

[phoenix]

Hi dzignr_tastz,

I know IFD basically measures softness (deflection = resistance), but what determines how much resistance there is (as there’s plenty with mine - LOL)? I was under the assumption that since air compresses more than a tangible substance (especially when allowed to flow out of it), how many air pockets there are in the foam and their size (which sounds like your description of density) would have a lot to do with softness and overall compression? I mean, if there were no air pockets whatsoever, would it not be semi-rigid?

Even IFD isn’t a reliable indicator as to how soft or firm a material will feel for a specific person because in most cases it only measures softness and firmness when a 4" (in the case of polyfoam) or 6" (in the case of latex) is compressed by 25% of its thickness (and even this varies in different areas around the world and isn’t always standardized) and different materials will also get firmer at different rates as you compress them more deeply (compression modulus). ILD is also not a reliable way to compare firmness between different types of materials (see post #6 here). There are also different “types” of softness that different people are more or less sensitive to (see post #15 here) not to mention that body weight, sleeping positions, and individual sensitivities will also affect the sensation of softness. The most reliable way to tell whether any individual mattress feels soft or firm for any specific person and “how” it feels soft or firm would be their personal experience.

Phoenix

[dzignr_tastz]

So what do you think it would take to get some real answers here (not from you, but from the company)? It seems I have now found the option of just cutting through all the rigamarole and directly emailing the VP of Business Development (or ‘Deterioration’, whichever it may be potentially be based on my ultimate review) for BRK and see if he’s interested enough in my particular situation to either find out the answers to my questions or put me in touch with someone who can. After all, I don’t think an entry-level (if they have that many levels in the company) CS rep will be able to address everything I’ve discovered, addressed here, and would like to know…

Thoughts?

[phoenix]

Hi dzignr_tastz,

Thoughts?

It would certainly be worth a try to see what happens as long as it would be worth the time and effort for you and I for one would be interested in what they had to say and anything you were able to discover

Phoenix

[dzignr_tastz]

[quote=“Phoenix” post=40819]It would certainly be worth a try to see what happens as long as it would be worth the time and effort for you and I for one would be interested in what they had to say and anything you were able to discover

Phoenix[/quote]

Before I head off to sleep on it again, a quick update. I decided to just try a “only tell you half of what I actually know” approach with CS and here’s what I got on the specs…

Here is the apparent breakdown of the layers:

1. 3" Gel Infused Memory Foam Layer 3.0lb Density and 16ILD
2. 1" Extra Comfort Layer is made from High Resilience Foam with 2.0lb Density and 15ILD
3. 2" Ventilated Layer is made from Perforated High Resilience Foam with 2.0lb Density and 30ILD
4. 7" Base Layer is made from High Resilience Foam with 2.0lb Density and 30ILD

I also asked about the compression modulus but got no response on that. Not sure if it’s a measurable and/or publishable spec? I also may ask about the percentage of gel in that layer. Also, the foam was apparently manufactured in the city I work in (the irony), by HSM (Hickory Springs Manufacturing), who is, in fact, on the CertiPur list. I actually know a few people that work there, so I may try to see if I can confirm this.

Anyway - from what I now know, the densities don’t seem very high for a “25-year warranty”, and the person that gave them to me described it the mattress as “medium firm to medium soft, which could vary by comfort interpretation, weight, and/or temperature”.

Your analysis? LOL

[phoenix]

Hi dzignr_tastz,

As you mentioned Hickory Springs is a well known North American manufacturer that is CertiPur certified so there would be no issues there if that is in fact where they are getting their foams.

Compression modulus isn’t a spec that any manufacturer is likely to provide and in many cases they may not even know it.

While the foam may be a high performance foam and have a higher resilience than conventional polyfoam … the minimum specs for HR polyfoam is 2.5 lb density or higher and a compression modulus of 2.4 or higher so 2.0 lb polyfoam is HD not HR although it may still be a higher performance foam.

If the specs you were given are correct then you could calculate the weight that the mattress “should be” for the different sizes.

queen size = 60" x 80". 3" of 3 lb memory foam should weigh 25.0 lbs and 10" of 2.0 lb polyfoam should weigh 55.6 lbs for a total foam weight (not including the cover) of 80.6 lbs. The listed weight on Amazon is 50 lbs which is 38% lower than it should be.

king size = 76" x 80". 3" of 3 lb memory foam should weigh 31.7 lbs and 10" of 2.0 lb polyfoam should weigh 70.4 lbs for a total foam weight of 102.1 lbs. The listed weight on Amazon is 65 lbs which is 36% lower than it should be.

cal king size = 72" x 84". 3" of 3 lb memory foam should weigh 31.5 lbs and 10" of 2.0 lb polyfoam should weigh 70 lbs for a total foam weight of 101.5 lbs. The listed weight on Amazon is 65 lbs which is 36% lower than it should be.

full XL size = 54" x 80". 3" of 3 lb memory foam should weigh 22.5 lbs ad 10" of 2.0 lb polyfoam should weigh 50 lbs for a total foam weight of 72.5 lbs. The listed weight on Amazon is 43 lbs is 41% lower than it should be.

In a mattress in this price range with foam that is sourced in North America it’s not likely that there would be 10" of 2 lb polyfoam in the mattress. While Amazon’s listed shipping weights may not be exact or correct and foam densities can also vary and also aren’t exact … either the shipping weight on Amazon is very wrong or the specs are incorrect. I would suspect that the specs are incorrect.

I would consider 3" of 3 lb density memory foam to be a weak link in a mattress and would normally be enough for me to exclude considering it as part of prudent “risk management”.

If the other layers were really 2.0 lb US made polyfoam then they would be good quality but I have my doubts that the specs are correct.

To make the numbers add up (assuming that the listed weights are correct which may also not be the case) and if the memory foam is really 3 lbs then the density of the polyfoam layers would need to be more than 1.0 lb/ft3 lower which would mean that it was less than 1 lb density which would be exceptionally low quality.

Phoenix