Hi sdmark,
Their reply makes sense to me and is probably similar to what I would have replied as well.
I don’t think convolution height is a spec I would focus on or is particulary important and the feel and performance of the mattress in terms of PPP and of course the type and durability of the material itself matters much more.
These types of specs have little practical use or relevance.
Phoenix
Hi,I looked at the tri-comfort as well.Gave them a call and was told it’s more inline for a children’s or teens
mattress and that I wouldn’t get “fantastic” support on it a s a full grown adult. I ended up going w/ the UD latex basted on their knowledge and this forums help too.
Being the price is cheaper for the UD latex it makes me like them more since i wasn’t being
pushed to buy the more expensive 10" latex.
Not sure of your needs but ask them about that when you talk to them again and see if they confirm to you the same thing I was told.
Hi Phoenix,
In my opinion, convolution height matters for two reasons:
In trying to anticipate how a mattress would feel, I think of the convoluted part as a separate layer with half of the density of the “solid” part (assuming the convolution is made by cutting away half of the material), something like putting ILD 12 over ILD 24. So in a 3" solid plus 1" convolution, I expect something like a 3" solid layer plus a softer 1" layer. However if it turns out to be 2.25" solid plus 1.75" convolution, I have a thinner base layer and a thicker soft layer.
Part of shopping it based on value. I am willing to pay a bit more for 7" of latex than 6".
Another part of value in latex is natural content. At the time I purchased, they claimed it was 40% natural. I doubted that but expected 20% natural. Only later did they agree it is “mostly” synthetic.
Mark
Hi orrair,
Thanks for that feedback. I was also interested in the Ultimate Dreams mattresses. In an early call to Brooklyn Bedding, the rep said I should avoid the UD mattresses because they only have 1.5lb base foam as opposed to BB’s most popular model, the Bamboo Bliss with 2.17lb . He later softened that a bit, saying it depends on whether I want (i.e. can afford) a 10-year mattress or a 20-year mattress.
I was actually looking at the BB Cotton Camilla ($899) which has the 1.5lb foam, and comparing it to the Dreamfoam UD 12" (also $899). I left a message for Dreamfoam to call re. mattress questions, but they never called back.
One good thing about BB is that they are available by phone. I called BB again and spoke with a different rep. We went over my age, weight, and sleeping pattern (55, 160, mostly side sleeper). He initially steered me to the 10" Total Latex ($1899). When I explained that I was looking at the Camilla, he repeatedly pushed the Bliss over the Camilla, even offering a discount on the Bliss. However if I really wanted an $899 mattress, he said I should look at the Tri-Comfort, which is a better value for the money than the Camilla. (They really don’t want to sell the Camilla!)
In a subsequent chat and phone call, I confirmed the Tri-Comfort specs (as outlined in my last post on 4/2, above) and placed the order.
Which UD did you buy and how do you like it?
Mark
With apologies for my back, here are a few photos in which I try to gauge how far I am sinking in to this mattress (shown here inside a thin full-encasement protector). If my calculations are correct, I’m about 7" from my side to my center belt loop. The top of the mattress is about 1" above the bed frame, then when I lie on my side, the center belt loop is about 1" above the frame. So my hip is sinking in about 7".
Phoenix (or anyone else): Is that expected in a “medium” latex mattress? Is that enough information to make a recommendation on how I could configure this for a better “fit” for me? Options are switching the top layer with the bottom, turning one or both layers over, exchanging one or both layers, or returning the mattress and getting something else.
Mark
Hi sdmark,
Unfortunately no. I don’t know anyone in the industry that has enough knowledge or experience to be able to take all the unknowns, variables, and preferences involved to use specs alone (either of a mattress or a person) or “theory at a distance” to know with any certainty which mattress may be the best match for someone in terms of PPP. If there is … I have yet to find them and I’m certainly not one of them. It would be something like trying to define a “perfect” work of art for someone else.
The more knowledgeable and experienced someone is … the more they will tend to realize that each person is unique and even people with decades of experience that have designed and built many mattresses will often be surprised at the difference between the final outcome of a mattress and their design goals and how they thought it would feel and perform based on theory.
I tend to take a more “experiential” approach to choosing (or fine tuning) a mattress rather than a more theoretical or “spec based” approach which I don’t believe is effective and often leads to a focus on specs that have little practical use or meaning at the expense of actual experience. The specifications I pay most attention to are the specs that can help assess the quality/durability of a mattress and identify any potential weak links … not the “comfort” specs.
Once you have slept on a mattress and have a reference point based on your actual experience … then post #2 here and some of the posts it links to has more information about many of the more common symptoms and experiences that people will have on a mattress that can provide some insights about the types of changes someone may need if a particular mattress doesn’t seem to be suitable for them in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences).
Phoenix
I purchased this mattress myself just a few days ago and will be taking receipt of it at the end of May (was taking advantage of a good offer after chatting directly with Mario). At no point was I ever given any indication that this mattress was intended more for a child or teen, so I am surprised by these comments. Do you think its possible that these comments were made from the perspective that the firmness is better tailored to younger/lighter people?
Mark, if I was in your position I would flip the layers (bottom on the top, and top on the bottom) and see if you sink in less and begin to feel like it is more of what you were looking for. If that happens to be the case, then you can probably make a reasonable assumption that you need to exchange the top layer from the “medium” model for the base layer from the “firm” model to use as your base moving forward, and keep the base layer from the “medium” model you purchased and use that as your top layer – thoughts??
Hi Matt ress,
While I don’t know for certain the reasons behind comments made on a phone call that I wasn’t part of … I would suspect that your comment here is probably accurate.
From the perspective of the quality of the materials … it would certainly be suitable for an adult.
My first step would always be a phone call with the manufacturer who will tend to be more familiar with the options that are available that have worked for others in a similar situation than anyone else
Reversing the layers would certainly be worthwhile testing as a pointer although I’m not quite sure if I’m understanding you correctly about the specifics. I would differentiate between the softer comfort layers (which are more for pressure relief) and the firmer support layers (which are more for support). The base layer for the medium model appears to be the C5 which is the firmest layer they make (although this would depend on which set of Mountaintop’s ILD numbers the 34 ILD refers to) and I would tend to keep the firmer base layer in the medium as it is (again assuming it’s C5). I would tend to use a comfort layer that was softer than the base layer because a C5 comfort layer may be too firm for most people (although of course there may be some that prefer this and if the C4 is too soft as a comfort layer then there is only one firmer option available)
If you flip a convoluted layer upside down with the convoluting on the bottom it will also tend to be a little firmer than with the convoluting up so it can be worthwhile flipping either the comfort layer, the support layer, or both individually to see if this makes a difference.
There is also a difference between how far you sink into a mattress and how evenly you sink into a mattress. How far you sink into a mattress is more of a preference and affects the more subjective perceptions of “comfort” and “feel”. How evenly you sink into a mattress is more of a “need” and affects spinal alignment (see post #6 here). When you are assessing a mattress in terms of PPP, it’s always a good idea to differentiate the sensations and symptoms that are likely connected to the two basic “needs” (Posture and alignment and Pressure relief) which are the first two “P’s” and are more objective than the sensations that are more about “preferences” which is the last “P” and is more about subjective perceptions such as “feel” and “comfort”.
While all of these are not completely independent of each other and every layer will affect the feel and performance of every other layer to some degree … this will help identify and clarify whether any sleeping issues or “symptoms” are more about pressure relief, alignment, or preferences which in turn will help identify the most likely source of any issues and which layer changes have the best odds of correcting any symptoms.
Phoenix
Matt ress and Phoenix,
Thanks for these suggestions. I’m back to information overload and may try to process more tomorrow.
I had already tried turning the entire mattress over and sleeping on the bottom, but that was too firm (and weird weight distribution without the ticking layer); I had to get up after an hour and turn it right side up again.
For now, I followed Matt’s suggestion of exchanging the two layers so I now have the firmer layer on top, with the convolutions of both layers still pointing up. Switching those layers was fairly back-wrenching in itself! However, it did expose the barcode tags that were hidden in the top corner. It was a C3 over a C4. Now it’s a C4 over a C3. The tags also confirmed the 15.5cm (6") height of each original piece. Phoenix, do you have the Mountain Top 40% numbers? I’m trying to correlate C3 over C4 with what BB told me, ILD 28 over 34.
When I first set up the mattress and realized how soft it was, I immediately contacted the manufacturer via email and asked for suggestions. The brief reply was that I should try it for days or weeks and that I have 120 days to exchange the comfort layer(s). I took that to mean that I am on my own to figure out what might work. I appreciate the chance to interact here.
Mark (The Guinea Pig)
Hi sdmark,
No unfortunately I don’t. They would be higher than the 25% numbers but you won’t need them because you know the layers you have and which ones would be firmer and which ones are softer.
When you are first sleeping on a new mattress the best thing to do at first is nothing so that the mattress has a chance to break in and you have a chance to adjust to the feel of a new sleeping surface.
When or if it becomes clear to you that you may need to make some changes to the mattress … emails aren’t an effective means of communicating more complex information and don’t provide the more nuanced and interactive communication you will need to make the best decisions. I would always talk about these types of issues on the phone … never by email.
Phoenix
Mark, what have your result been like thus far with the C4 over the C3? I would say its probably not ideal longterm, but are you now of the mindset at this point that you’d best served exchanging the C3 layer for a C5, leaving yourself with the “firm” model? (C4 over C5)
Matt,
Thanks for checking in.
I’ve only had two nights on this configuration but I’m not liking it. It’s hard to describe–it is a firmer on top, but I’m still sinking in about the same amount. I have awakened aware of pressure points, or twisted into odd positions (probably trying to avoid the pressure points), or on my back (I’m usually on my side). I’ve slept maybe an hour less than usual and awakened early. So no, I don’t think C4 over C5 would work for me.
Before I switched the layers, I briefly tried turning the C3 layer convolution-side down, but leaving it on top of the C4. I can’t recall exactly why that didn’t seem like it would help–maybe it wasn’t enough of a difference. Anyway I proceeded then to the C4 over C3, both convolutions up.
Mark
Hi sdmark,
I’m not surprised that the C4 over C3 isn’t working for you since it may have moved in the wrong direction for both the comfort and support layers (a comfort layer that is too firm for good comfort/pressure relief and a support layer that is too soft for good support/alignment). I think that these layers are a little to thick to make effective use of a dominating layer (a firmer layer over a softer layer).
Given some of your feedback … you may be better off with C3 (good pressure relief) over C5 (firmer support with less sagging under the heavier parts of your body).
Phoenix
I wanted to post a brief follow-up on this.
Yes, that might have helped. Purely from a mattress design point of view, I was still leery of two layers of deep convolutions. I decided to return the mattress.
My biggest disappointment in this experience has been dealing with Brooklyn Bedding. At the time I ordered the mattress, they had provided the information that I posted in post #6 above. When it arrived, it was substantially different. And yet they have never apologized or admitted a mistake; in fact, in his last email, the sales manager maintains, “From the first point of conversation both Jacob and myself have been up front with you about our products and what you should expect, also stating that the synthetic Dunlop latex is purchased from mountain top foam in our original conversation.” It is beyond me how 7" of 40% natural latex is identical in his mind to 6" of 100% synthetic.
Everyone makes mistakes. An “honest, open, and ethical” company admits them and, if it cannot supply what was promised, at least pays for the return.
Hi sdmark,
I think that your engineering approach may be working against you in deciding what is important in a mattress purchase because the “value” of a mattress involves much more than the depth of the convolutions or the thickness of the original layer they were cut from.
While I wasn’t on the call where you were told that the latex was 40% natural … they have always been clear with me that it was mostly synthetic latex so I’m not sure if the person you were talking with just didn’t know because the mattress was new and they hadn’t been asked this before or whether they believed that the information they were providing you was correct. I also think that your questions about the height of the convoluting would be unimportant to almost all people and it’s certainly not a question that they would normally be asked or that most manufacturers would even consider was important for a customer to know. Either way though … each person has their own criteria about what is important that may be unique to them and your experience and the thoughts you are left with about Brooklyn Bedding are unfortunate.
I also know from personal experience and my conversations with them and their ownership that Brooklyn Bedding is among the most open, honest, ethical, and even progressive manufacturers in the country and I have always been impressed with their transparency and their approach to customer service so your thoughts about them are certainly much different from mine or the many hundreds or thousands of people who have been very happy with their dealings with them. While no business is perfect … they have an amazing track record of providing great service.
I should also mention that while you will tend to sink in more deeply to synthetic latex … the convoluting is meant to help you sink in more evenly so that you are in good alignment and if you talk with Mountaintop foam they will tell you that their synthetic latex is more durable than their 100% natural (although I have to admit that I am still somewhat skeptical about this and time will tell).
While I understand the reasoning behind your comments … the reality is that your mattress was 8" of mostly synthetic latex regardless of how it was derived or the thickness of the original core. A mattress is much more than just the raw materials or the price per inch of foam or the price per pound of the fabrics (see post #5 here). There is also a cost involved in fabricating or convoluting a layer and adding value to the original core so that you can achieve the design goals of a mattress although doing it themselves in house it would be less than outsourcing the same job to a foam fabricator (outside of their machinery investment).
While your need for more technical information may be more than most people would want or even need to know … I do understand that you are disappointed with your experience and hopefully your next attempt at finding your perfect mattress that meets all your unique criteria will be more successful.
Phoenix
Hi sdmark,
It is unfortunate that this mattress did not work out for you. As I had explained over the phone comfort is relative to each individual and the offer I had extended to you was more than reasonable to have the comfort layers exchanged to the next firmest level at no charge. This was an exception that I was willing to make in order for you to be completely satisfied with the purchase you had made. This offer was declined by you as you requested to have the mattress returned for a refund minus the disclosed return shipping fee instead.
We also did not go over any specific percentages of natural to synthetic materials that were in the mattress. I had explained this was a new product with the material being from Mountain Top Foam and the higher percentage being synthetic latex, also explaining that we would contact Mountain Top and discuss with them the percentage of the synthetic to natural material to ensure we were able to offer this information in the future. I had suggested that you could also contact them to get more detailed information. We had also spoken about the convoluted material in the mattresses being a range with no specific depth.
From our emails and telephone conversations you had expressed that the mattress might simply be too soft for your needs and I feel I offered everything possible to keep you as a satisfied Brooklyn Bedding customer. When that was declined the return of the mattress was handled swiftly on your part which I do appreciate and the refund was also processed immediately.
The request for a refund of the return shipping fee came only after you had already been refunded and every detail discussed had already been agreed upon by you.
I am in contact with my other sales associates on a daily basis to ensure all of the information is accurate and up to date. Here at Brooklyn Bedding we pride our selves on providing great customer service to all of our customers and have built a great reputation in doing so.
Our policies are in place for a reason and we have them fully explained on our website so you are able to make an educated decision on how to determine the mattress to best suit your needs along with the details of our policies. We are completely upfront on the quality and materials that we offer so you are able to make that determination as easily as possible. It is unfortunate that this mattress did not provide the comfort level that you were looking for in a mattress and I hope that you are able to find a mattress to best suit your needs.
You are more than welcome to contact me by phone or email if you would like any additional information. I would be happy to further assist you if you like.
Mario Sevilla
Sales Manager
Brooklyn Bedding
480-323-8831
Since this is one of the mattresses I’ve been looking at, have read this thread with interest. I guess I’ll be in the same kind of boat with online ordering - Not really sure what firmness would be best for me. To be honest, every mattress I’ve ever bought I just tried laying on some until once felt “decent”, and never made that big of a “production” of it. If going the online route, want to try to get it right… 
Hi IronMan,
When you can’t test a mattress in person then a more detailed conversation with the retailer or manufacturer is the most effective way to make a comfort choice (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).
The tri comfort also has the option of exchanging layers after a purchase so you can change both the comfort and support of your mattress if your actual sleeping experience indicates that you need it.
I wouldn’t make it any more complicated than this either.
Phoenix
I received my mattress about 3 weeks ago, but due to some travel, have only slept on it about 8 nights. I ordered the firm.
It is much softer than I expected. Probably the softest bed I have ever slept on. At least the top layer. I can’t say yet whether or not it is too soft for me. My back was bothering me for the first week I slept on it, so between that and adjusting to a new bed, I was not surprised my back was hurting in the morning. After traveling, I slept on it last night for the first time my back wasn’t hurting going to bed and it felt ok this morning.
I don’t have any travel for a few weeks, so i am going to give it a shot and let me adjust to it before deciding to try anything. I did ask Brooklyn Bedding if there was any options if I found it was too soft after giving it some time, they assured me there was.
I’ll update over the next few weeks.
Oh, out of curiosity, is there labels on the foam indicating the firmness level? I’ll admit my first reaction on getting the bed was that I got a soft 
[quote=“Wishbone” post=36736]
Oh, out of curiosity, is there labels on the foam indicating the firmness level? I’ll admit my first reaction on getting the bed was that I got a soft :)[/quote]
You should be able to identify a rating of “C4” which would likely be visible on either the end(s) or one of the sides of both layers. The firm model is two layers of C4 rated Mountain Top Synthetic Dunlop latex.