Brooklyn Bedding BME - no joy

Hiya,
The other thread where my posts were is kind of convoluted (and was called login), so I hope you don’t mind me starting a new one.

So, the situation is that the BME, with no topper, is still allowing my hips to hit that second comfort layer. But using the topper, I have back pain thru the day. I sleep better and longer without the topper, but if I do wake up, the hip pain makes me have to get up. Not too happy about those two choices, obviously.

So, the first thing I want to do is find the specs of the comfort layers in the soft option of the BME. I saw one post that says:
2" Talalay blended latex , Soft is 19 ILD and Medium is 28 ILD
2" Dunlop synthetic latex, C2 type

I don’t know what C2 means, but I think what I am shooting for now is a mattress that has the 2" or more of the blended talalay latex, but a softer support layer below that one (or a couple thinner layers). I don’t know if the 2" dunlop is thick enough to keep me from hitting the support layer, but I think it would be. So, do you know what C2 type means, or what the ILD would be for a soft option of the second layer is?

It seems like this bed is absolutely the best value for the materials used, and I sure wish it had worked out, but it’s time to admit defeat and move on. Do you know of any others that may meet what I described? I have a king now, but I swapped rooms and measured how much area I really use to sleep on, and I’ll be going to a queen, so that helps a bit with what I figure will be a higher cost for another of this quality.

I guess another option would be to get a 1 or 2" blended talalay topper, but it seems like the cost of those with what I’ve already spent could be more than getting another bed altogether. Would that also help the durability in the long run? I guess my main reservation with those is that they don’t have the sleep trials that the mattresses have, and the 100+ days thing is what I really love about these internet beds.

Anyway, hanks again for this forum as a platform to have these discussions, and for sharing your knowledge with us, and thanks for any advice you can share. :slight_smile:

Hi downlover,

I’m sorry you’re still having problems finding a comfortable mattress, but as you mentioned before it is difficult with chronic illness and sensitivities. Are you feeling better and able to get out of the house now?

It does sound as if the topper provided too much surface plushness, which is one manner to negatively impact alignment, and without the topper it seems that you were aligned better, but your pressure point issues are waking you up.

The BME Plush uses 19 ILD Talalay in the upper layer and continuous pour Talalay Dunlop in 32 ILD in the layer beneath that.

That’s the ILD range designation used by Mountain Top foam for their continuous pout Dunlop latex.

All the layers of a mattress actually compress simultaneously, not sequentially, and they will each compress to different percentages of their thickness depending on their position on the mattress, the firmness of each layer, the compression modulus of the material, the thickness of each layer, and the compression force that they are exposed to (which depends on the weight of the part of the body in contact with the mattress and the surface area that is bearing that weight which is constantly changing as you sink into the mattress more or change sleep positions).

While “going through” a layer is commonly used as a way to explain things because there is a different amount of force that “goes through” a layer and compresses the next layer of the mattress depending on the hysteresis of the material (how much energy it absorbs) and on how point elastic the material is (how much compression affects or is affected by the surrounding areas of the layer) … it would be just as accurate to say that you will “feel through” the top layer meaning that you will feel the properties of the next layer down to different degrees. Even the softest latex won’t “bottom out” (meaning it has no more ability to compress because the walls of the cell structure are fully compressed on top of each other) if it is on top of another foam layer and will have the ability to compress more yet even though very soft latex will compress to a much larger percentage of its thickness than a firmer layer. Every layer of a mattress affects and is affected by every other layer in the mattress to different degrees.

The compression of each layer (mainly controlled by thickness, firmness, compression modulus, hysteresis, and position along with a few other specs) are what creates the pressure relieving cradle of a mattress in the top layers which re-distributes weight and pressure on the bony prominences and pressure points of the body while the resistance to further compression of the deeper layers is what “stops” the heavier parts of the body from sinking down too far and putting the spine and joints out of their natural alignment. The balance between the opposing needs of pressure relief and spinal alignment is the main factor behind all mattress design and theory and why different mattresses match the body types and sleeping positions and preferences of different people … or don’t.

In addition to this though, ILD is not the most reliable indicator of how soft or firm a layer will feel. Compression modulus is even more important because very few people actually sink into a layer exactly 25% and compression modulus is the rate at which a foam gets firmer as you compress it more. Latex has a higher compression modulus than polyfoam. In addition to this, latex is very “point elastic” which means that a smaller area can compress with less effect on or resistance from the surrounding area than polyfoam. This is much like the difference between pocket coils that act individually and innersprings that have helicals that join the springs together so that the compression of each spring will affect the springs around it which makes the spring stiffer.

Latex has a lower hysteresis (how much energy is absorbed) and conversely a higher resilience (how much energy it returns) than polyfoam so there are also factors that can make latex feel firmer depending on how much a specific layer is compressed in a mattress. Because of its unique qualities and ability to take on the shape of the person on it (point elasticity) it can feel softer and firmer at the same time and some will feel it as one or the other depending on what they are more sensitive to, their body type, sleeping position, and how they sink into the mattress.

With someone that was a heavier weight that used a softer comfort layer … it would be much more likely that they would feel the firmness of the “stiffer” polyfoam underneath it and the transition between the two layers. This is one of those “counter intuitive” circumstances where using softer foam can actually make a mattress feel firmer. This is one of the situations that can arise if you choose too plush of a secondary “transition” layer beneath your plush top layer, as the transition to the polyfoam core can feel too abrupt.

A “transition” layer of Talalay versus Dunlop might feel better to you, as Dunlop “firms up” faster than Talalay (it has a higher compression modulus for a similar ILD rating), if this is where you think you are feeling you sensitivity. Another option for you, which may seem counterintuitive, could be using a slightly firmer Talalay layer on top with a slightly softer Talalay layer beneath, providing a bit more "surface support’ but still good pressure pint relief.

Unfortunately, there is no formula that can predict with any certainty what type of layering you may do best with that can possibly be more accurate than your own personal experience, as it is a quite complex science as to how all of these layers work together.

With your very specific requirements, I wouldn’t be in a situation to choose a mattress for you, and can only offer guidance as to “how” to choose, and I’ve listed in my previous reply to a link to some of the site members here who are good at assisting people with specific needs.

You can see some of the better topper suppliers of which I am aware in post #4 here. At a quick glance, mattresstopper.com, kttenterprises, sleeplikeabear and foamorder.com all allow for returns/exchanges.

You’re welcome. I’m sorry there aren’t “definitive” answers for your situation, but hopefully the information I’m sharing is assistive to you.

Phoenix

Note added:
I moved your previous posts into this separate thread to be easier for reference for you and others reading through this. Also, one thing I forgot to mention regarding toppers is that many people with sensitivities have had relief with wool toppers, but this does involve fabric and with your sensitivities to creases in materials I don’t know if this is an appropriate avenue to purse.

Thanks once again for all of that info. I am not quite sure what to do with it. :slight_smile: I just hit info overload and didn’t have the will to go through a ton of sites again. It seems like what I was looking for (blended talalay, then 2 other layers of progressively firmer blended (?) dunlop or talalay, something like that) is more out of the range of my budget.

Anyway, long story short, I pulled the trigger on a Helix. It’s been on my mind for a while, because of the custom stuff, and because I have been thinking that I’ve never tried independent coils before, and that’s something that a lot of people who have chronic pain seem to feel supports them best. I know your feelings about reviews, but I am sorta educated about what all is in the bed, at least. :slight_smile:

I had a nap on it earlier, and slept well, but we’ll see how it goes. I did get a free surprise upgrade to king. I had planned to use a queen in the smaller room, but I really don’t mind having a king in there. I walk in there and sleep, and that’s all that matters. :slight_smile: My kitty enjoys the extra space of a king. I let Helix know and sent them pics of the box and tag so they know of the issue, since it could be a much bigger issue for someone who doesn’t have the space. They were super nice about it. And it shipped really fast; got it in 8 days after ordering, including a delay because of ice/flooding here.

I’ll let y’all know how it goes. If this doesn’t work out, the weather should let me get out of here more often next month, and maybe I can check out some of the local shops. I saw that you already have listed some of them here in Spokane in another post, so that rocks. But I’m hoping I’ve found The One. :slight_smile:

Hi downlover,

Thanks for the update, and congratulations on your new Helix mattress! :slight_smile: And your “free” upgrade to a king size (I hope someone else expecting a king didn’t get your queen by mistake).

I’m keeping my fingers crossed for you as well. And I’ll enjoy learning about your experience with the mattress after you (and the cat) have a had some time to try it out after a while.

Phoenix

Here’s an update. I fractured my back rolling over in the Helix and that was that. Pretty sure it’s not Helix’ fault that I have osteopenia, but it ruled it out for me, and put me firmly back into the latex court, since it’s easier to roll over in and move around in. Their return was easy. I actually was able to give it to someone here who just recently moved from her car to an apt, so that was awesome for her to get that.

Then I got the Amore. I’m close to the end of the sleep trial, and am really torn about this bed so far. It’s absolutely awesome to do physical therapy in. :slight_smile: But, though I seem to sleep pretty well, I am still waking up more sore than I think I should be. The fracture is stable, so I’m past that initial healing stuff, and am more close to my ‘normal.’ Anyway, I just don’t sleep as long in that bed, either, which isn’t good. But it seems like it provides good support, because I don’t have that lower back pain from it at all. So I ordered a 2" 14 ILD Talalay topper from KTT Enterprises. Their prices are WOW low, and recommended here [CLARIFICATION - MODERATOR NOTE: While they are mentioned here on the site in various posts, KTT Enterprises is not a recommended member of The Mattress Underground.]. I was pretty impressed watching her video, and then when I started talking to them, I ended up talking to her on the phone, and her husband in email. Awesome. Anyway, that gets here next week, and I hope it will make this the perfect bed for me. I still plan to get down to Twilight this weekend, just to see what they have.

So, that’s the latest in my epic bed saga. I’ll let you know how it goes. :slight_smile:

Hi downlover,

I’m really sorry to hear of your fracture :frowning: – I hope you feel better soon. And yes, I don’t think we can blame the mattress for your osteopenia. I’m sorry the Helix didn’t work out for you, but I’m happy that the arrangement for the return was an easy one with them.

The Amore uses a lower profile pocketed spring unit, topped with 4" of 1.8 lb polyfoam and then 1" of memory foam (I don’t know the density) – there is no latex in this mattress (you had mentioned that you were thinking of going the route of latex). The innerspring unit would generally provide good support and assist a bit with repositioning ease.

If you think that your soreness is from a lack of surface plushness, adding this topper should be a good test of that. I’ll be interested in learning if this performs well for you.

Phoenix

PS, I had to edit part of your last post for clarification, as KTT is not a recommended member of The Mattress Underground

Wow, no latex? That’s wild. I was looking at this post, (https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/amorebed) which said the top 1" is latex. Their site is confusing, too, because it says it’s memory foam, but they also have a link on their site that talks about the quality of their latex. Anyway, whatever’s on the top is really easy to move around on like the BBE was.

Thanks for the clarification about KTT. I’m excited about getting the topper, but am really unsure where to turn if it doesn’t really help with the Amore bed. I lost my bookmarks, so I’ll have to kind of start over again, but as always, I’m very grateful for the info on this site. I’ll let you know how it goes.

Here’s the link about their latex. I am almost positive the wording has changed on that front page, because there is no way I’d have ordered something with memory foam as the top layer.
ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint: amorebeds.com/sandbox/oeko-tex-talalay-latex/

I wonder if the bed itself has changed, or if they are calling their top layer memory foam because a lot of people seem to like memory foam?

Hi downlover,

[quote]Wow, no latex? That’s wild. I was looking at this post, ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint: themattressunderground.com/mattress-…-amorebed.html#69391
which said the top 1" is latex.[/quote]

Yes, that was from February of this year and at that time their mattresses were using 1" of latex in the uppermost layer. Around April they switched to 1" of memory foam in the upper layer. I just found out about this at the prompting of your post earlier today and have begun to update various parts of the forum with this information. Keeping track of the constantly evolving specifications of the different manufacturers listed here on the site is a practical impossibility, so it’s common that I’m alerted to a change in configuration from people posting here (just as you did!). This is another reason I’ll recommend to confirm everything in a phone call with the manufacturer/retailer before placing an order, as their information will be the most accurate and current.

No, they’re calling the foam memory foam because it is in fact memory foam and they’ve slightly changed their design.

Yes, it is a bit confusing if you click through their site and see the page about Talalay latex, which would have been in reference to their previous version. But if you shop for their new model they clearly list the specifications of the mattress as containing memory foam on top. But it is possible the mattress you purchased still could have been made with the 1" of latex on top, and you can check the law label of your mattress and see if latex foam is listed as one of the ingredients.

You’re welcome, and I’m hoping for positive updates!

Phoenix

I called Amore and he’s going to get back to me. He said that the feel is identical. :slight_smile: But I pushed to find out, because I want to know. He was quite resistant, maybe because it’s Friday and it was late in his work day, but I don’t want to hear that “it’s whatever I think I have.” :slight_smile:

It will be reeeally interesting if it is memory foam, because it is really cool sleeping, and really easy to move around on. Maybe the graphite can do that to memory foam by making it less mushy? I dunno. Either way, if the topper works, it works, and I guess if it is really good, I could actually consider a memory foam for the rest of the bed, since the latex topper will be on top. Is my logic faulty there?

Hi downlover,

As I suggested earlier, simply look on the law tag sewn into your mattress and it will tell you if there is latex in your mattress or not. That would be the fastest way to find out.

I’m guessing that they would have to go through a bit of paperwork or production records to find out that information as to what shipped to you and the specifications at that time, and it may be that the person with whom you spoke would not have that information at hand, and not necessarily being “resistant”. While there is only 1" of either the latex or memory foam on top, there would be a slight difference in feel, but with a topper on top this difference would be minimized even more.

Most of the ease of repositioning will be due to the polyfoam layers and the spring unit beneath your 1" layer of either memory foam or latex.

Graphite is added for thermal conductivity and also the anisotropic properties it displays (can help to slightly increase the durability of softer foams without impacting comfort). It would not be an issue of increasing resilience which you would notice for repositioning.

I’m not clear of your thought process here. If you place a topper on this existing configuration and it “works”, why would you change anything? If you select another mattress that uses more memory foam, you’ll be changing the entire feel of what is under the topper, which would start your process all over again. And the more memory foam you would use, the more difficult it would be to reposition upon the mattress.

Phoenix

The tag only had lot # and stuff like that, nothing with the ingredients. He contacted me via email just now and let me know that the one I got was made with latex.

Sorry for the confusion about my thought process. If it works great on the bed I have, I’ll keep that, but if it doesn’t, and I’m searching for another bed, I think I can stop avoiding memory foam, necessarily, and am wondering if that sounds right. I know that if this one doesn’t work, I will have to start the process all over again. I wouldn’t be worried about it so much, but I’m getting pretty close to the end of this trial, and I will need to get a bed in here before I return the other.

BTW, for reference, he said that though they changed their mattress, if you talk to them, they can make one with the latex instead of the other foam. So that’s an option they have that’s not obvious on their site.

Hi downlover,

I’m glad they were able to find out the information your needed and got back to you quickly. That’s great news.

As for the identification, your mattress should have been delivered with the “law tag” that would have contained the information listed here . A US law tag will look something like this
ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint: americanlawlabel.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Anatomy-of-Law-Label.pdf
and is required to say that the mattress includes all new materials and the type and amount of materials inside expressed as a percentage of weight along with the other information listed including the date of manufacture. Information showing that the mattress has passed the fire regulations is also required and is often included in the same tag. You can see some more of the type of information that is normally on a law tag in some of the images here.

I wouldn’t know whether or not you’d like a mattress using memory foam, as that is a personal preference. I can tell you that if repositioning is a primary concern for you, you may desire something more resilient than a mattress that uses larger amounts of memory foam in the upper layers, as in some combinations it can be more difficult for people to move about in such a configuration.

That’s good for people to know should they wish to order the previous version of the Amore Bed. Thanks!

Phoenix