Brooklyn Bedding vs. Dreamfoam Bedding

I understand the personal value equation comes into play. I think for me personally, I’m willing to spend the money if it’s going to be worth it until I hit the budget ceiling. Assuming the Aloe and Total Latex lines are above budget, my choices are:

Cotton Camilla - $899 ($845 after 5% discount)
Bamboo Bliss - $1,199 (1,139 after 5% discount)
Dreamfoam Ultimate Dreams - $749
Dreamfoam UD w/ Eurotop - $999

Removing any worry about buying online or return policy, and assuming the ILD available is what I want for all of them, is there any real reason why any of the above are vastly different than the others? I know that the density of the foam core is better in the Bamboo, as you said Phoenix, but I guess I’m curious. I don’t mind spending the $450, but it’s silly to throw that money away on an extremely marginal difference in quality. It’s not like I’m thinking about going from a hybrid to total latex or something, these seem like tiny differences, but the price tags make me second guess if I’m really missing something.

Obviously, if I decide that being able to edit my choice is necessary, I’d probably go Camilla since it’s free and unlimited (and cheaper than the Dream with Euro). Hmm…

Phoenix,

I just got contacted by somebody looking at the Ultimate Dreams mattress by Dreamfoam Bedding. It looks like they’ve changed the specifications on it since I purchased mine from over a year ago. When I purchased mine the base foam was listed at 2.35 if I remember right. It seems they’ve since changed their base foam but are still keeping all the reviews from a different configuration. My questions are this:

  1. Did Dreamfoam change their configuration on this mattress that you know of?
  2. If they’ve changed their product, they should remove the reviews that are for a different product… shouldn’t they?

I’d hate to recommend this mattress to somebody if it’s really different from the one I purchased.

Coventry,

Small world! That was me who asked :slight_smile: I actually put in a call to Dreamfoam after you replied to get to the bottom of it. Your reply got me thinking though… I wonder how many comments were BEFORE they downgraded the quality of the materials. Not sure. I’m going to investigate when they call me back, will post here.

Phoenix, thanks for your advice. I just purchased a 10" Total Latex from Brooklyn. It was a little more than I originally budgeted, but I needed a new mattress badly, and I consider that good sleep is vital for your health. Also, thanks to Chuck for his help

Excellent! Please post back here when you find out more please. If they HAVE changed this product where where the core elements are that different, I will either need to remove or edit my original review on Amazon. It bothers me a bit and I feel it’s a bit disingenuous to keep up reviews when the product has changed drastically. For mattresses, I feel a large change in the poundage of base foam IS a substantial change, since this was one of my ‘decision makers’ or ‘value judgements’ when I purchased mine originally.

Thank you for notifying me about this issue and I hope to hear back from you soon with more information. :slight_smile:

Hi JDMWDC,

Once you are down to final choices and you know all the pros and cons of each then it’s time for me to step out of the way so you can decide which is the best value for you and which mattress is the best fit for your own criteria. For example if the ability to exchange a layer isn’t an important issue for you and you are comfortable with the risk involved in buying a mattress where this isn’t possible then that feature of the purchase wouldn’t have “value” to you even though it may be the most important reason that someone else chooses it. the same thing would hold true for having wool in the comfort layer.

You will find that in most cases the “value” of a manufacturer’s line is comparable across their lineup (except that margins are usually a little higher in their higher budget mattresses) so the differences between them would be based more on the pros and cons of each design and the differences in materials and components which are most important to each person. Any of them would generally be “worth the extra price” but that’s different from whether any of the options available as you go up the line would be “worth it” to you.

Phoenix

Hi Coventry,

I don’t know (and I’ve called them as well) but I do know that they have made changes in how the Amazon line is being fulfilled (Amazon is now fulfilling them as well as them) and that part of their original plan (see their welcome post here) was to introduce a line of mattresses at a special discounted price on Amazon to build their brand as a stepping stone to introducing their own new line of mattresses on their own site (which has now started to happen). This was the reason that they were never able to offer the 5% discount on their Amazon mattresses (their margins were too low to allow that).

Now that they have introduced their own line … they may also be bringing their own Amazon line into “alignment” with a more “normal” margin that would be more typical of other manufacturers that are in the “best in country” value range. This would normally involve either price increases or the use of different materials.

This is a tough one to answer because the mattress would be basically the same product in terms of feel, performance, design, and durability and would still be “best in country” value but the base layer would also be lower density/quality polyfoam. I believe that they had access to some special temporary pricing with the base foam they were using (which would normally be more costly than their pricing allowed) and this may also not be available any longer which means that they would need to replace it with a different foam which was the best available to them and that the price of the mattresses allowed. Once any of this is confirmed though then I think it would be a good idea to add any changes to the description to make it clear what the current specs are so that people can make their purchase based on the materials as they are at the time they purchase it. In any case … I know them well enough to know that they would certainly disclose it to anyone who asked.

When they first started this was their only mattress and was set up to be a “special promotion” from the start but now it is the “entry level” of a more complete line and is being mostly fulfilled by Amazon which in turn leaves them free to design and build new mattresses to expand their line that they can offer on their own site as well as through their Dreamfoam Bedding line on Amazon so they may want the specs to better reflect the “position” of the mattress as well.

When I have the chance to talk with them (so I can avoid speculation about something I don’t know for sure) I will add any further comments here as well.

Phoenix

Phoenix/Coventry,

Just got off the phone with Chuck @ Dreamfoam. I asked him to compare the materials in his Ultra Plush latex v. say a cotton camilla at BB. He confirmed that the Dreamfoam line uses 1.5lb base foam.

So, Coventry perhaps it’s worth mentioning in your review that they have lowered the quality of the base foam since you purchased, just for accuracy of those reading it.

JDMWDC,

Thank you for getting back to me on this. While I understand the justifications bringing about the change of materials in the product, I feel it’s misleading for them to keep the previous reviews from a change such as this. The base foam density of 2.35 of this mattress was one of the bigger reasons why I chose the Ultimate Dreams mattress on Amazon over the 1.8lb foam from other manufacturers. Isn’t this one of the reasons everyone is mad at the “S” brands - calling differently constructed/materials used in mattresses the same name?

It doesn’t bother me that Dreamfoam is changing their products (I totally understand that) but it does bother me that my review is being used (it’s in the top 3 on the amazon page) to sell a DIFFERENT mattress than what I purchased. I will be changing my Amazon review to reflect this new information.

Thanks again JDMWDC for pointing this out to me.

Hi Coventry,

I talked with Chuck and then with John (the owner of Brooklyn Bedding) at length today so now I can make a few comments. Typical of some of my posts this will be a longer one because there are many moving parts to this discussion :slight_smile:

Sometimes incomplete or partial information or a more limited context or understanding about the factors involved or the pros and cons of various choices (either from a consumer viewpoint or a manufacturing viewpoint) can end up creating misleading assessments or assumptions. I think this may be one of those cases.

This isn’t quite as “black and white” as you may think it is.

The first thing I should mention is that the purpose of a review is to evaluate a mattress you purchased and this hasn’t changed. How people use a review is up to them but reading reviews is never a substitute for good research that looks at the details of all the layers of a mattress they are buying and compares it to what is available in the current market … not to what was available a year or two ago when prices of raw materials and the market itself was different. The "value"of a mattress is based on how it compares to what is currently available now and this is constantly changing. The best manufacturers who are transparent about their mattresses, take great care in their design, choose the highest quality materials available, and run on lower profit margins to provide them to people at great prices are the good guys … not the bad guys.

It’s not uncommon at all for even the best manufacturer to make changes to the specs of a mattress from cover materials to a foam. This is the reality of a changing market. It’s sad to me when a manufacturer that is completely transparent about what they make can sometimes become a “target of opportunity” and draw more scrutiny and even criticism than manufacturers that won’t provide any information at all about their mattresses and the changes they make are never known.

An example is Tempurpedic which has been recently removing any references to the specs of their mattresses from the internet (not just their own site) because they have changed the density of their base foam to 1.5 lb density as well and yet most of the market believes it is the same as it was. The difference is that they won’t even tell you what is in them if you ask and they are removing references to other quality information so that they can make any other changes they want without comment. Here you have just one example of something very similar and yet not a peep from consumers because they weren’t transparent in the first place so they don’t even know.

It’s somewhat ironic to me that the manufacturers that choose to run their business and disclose their specs and designs in the open can actually draw more criticism than the ones that don’t do any of this in the first place. In cases like this … it can be a real temptation for a manufacturer to just say “forget it” and join the rest of the industry rather than being criticized as a result of what could legitimately be called being “too transparent for their own good” or for the market they are involved in.

A little bit of information without the larger context can cause more harm to consumers than good, both now and in the future directions of the industry. If a manufacturer has no incentive to be transparent and it causes them harm when they do “in the open” what others do “in the dark” … then there is very little reason for them to provide this kind of information in the first place. It certainly won’t harm their sales when 95% of consumers don’t even care about specs anyway and only buy based on marketing information or on the approval of others. In effect this kind of criticism can push the best manufacturers away from transparency because price and material changes are a fact of life in the industry.

If there is to be real hope of educated consumers connecting with a growing group of transparent manufacturers then these kind of comments need to be made inside the context and with the understanding of the reality of the industry as it is … not as we may want it to be. Businesses need the freedom to make the changes and pursue the plans that allow them to both survive and thrive in an industry where the odds are already stacked against them. If they become “targets of opportunity” then the result is that they will have no incentive to continue to do what they are doing because there is no benefit to them to do so and it can even cause them harm. Don’t think that they don’t notice the irony of their circumstances and don’t struggle with deciding what is the “right thing to do” (at least the ones that care and Brooklyn Bedding is solidly in this camp).

There is even more yet though which has to do with the specific changes that they have made and how it fits into their plans that were started when they released their first Dreamfoam mattress on Amazon.

As you know from my previous post … their original plan (see the welcome post here was to use a material available to them at special prices for a limited time and to sell mattresses at lower margins to create a launch pad and a “special offer” to launch their brand. At this point they only had one mattress. Of course as the market changed and their plan evolved their original mattress became the entry level of a new lineup (actually two lineups which is their Amazon channel and their newer Brooklyn Bedding channel).

They are not able to use this material any longer in all their mattresses (their supply at special pricing was no longer available to them) so they needed to change either the price or the material. In addition to this, part of other ongoing business changes are that Amazon expressed an interest in their mattresses and is now fulfilling these “entry level mattresses” which means that they will be keeping a supply on hand which is compressed in their own warehouses for longer periods of time. The old foam is not as suitable for longer periods of compression as their new foam. This also leaves Brooklyn Bedding more free to continue to grow their brand and produce more high value mattress designs.

So on to some details about the specific 1.5 lb foam that they are now using as their base layer …

In this forum … quality is usually used in the context of durability and as you know higher density foams are more durable than lower density foams. Density is the primary although not the only factor in the durability of a foam. This is only part of the story however because as you know the density and quality of the materials in the upper layers of a mattress (not the support layer) are the weak link of most mattresses. Foam “quality” also has other definitions as well though and performance can also be used as a measure of quality (regardless of density or durability).

There is a grade of polyfoam called HR which has to be 2.5 lb density, have a compression modulus of 2.4 or higher, and a resilience of 60% or higher. These foams have much higher more “latex like” performance in terms of their response and feel. They are made in a different way using different chemicals and manufacturing methods than conventional foam to produce their properties. There are also high density conventional foams that are not HR (meaning they use conventional chemicals) that will also be more durable (as long as the increased density isn’t from fillers) but lack the improved performance and properties of HR foams.

There are also lower density foams which don’t meet the specs of HR foams in terms of density/durability but they do have higher performance properties (higher resilience, more responsive, higher compression modulus) similar to HR foams. While these are not actual HR foams … they are often called “high performance” or “high comfort” foams to differentiate them from more conventional foams. These are more costly and better quality than conventional foams (defined in performance rather than durability terms) even though their lower density also means they are less durable than higher density foams. In other words every foam density can have higher and lower performance versions and the performance is different between the classes of foam even though durability can be compared between classed by comparing their density (or more accurately their unfilled polymer density)

The density/durability of the base layer is not usually the weak link of a mattress but the performance of the base layers can be an important factor in how it feels. Of course with heavier weights that “go through” the top layers more, the density of a base layer can play a larger role in durability but this is still secondary to the top layers.

The new base layer is a higher performance but lower density foam that actually costs them about the same as their previous base layer and for most people … the increased performance of the new base layer is a good tradeoff and results in a mattress that has the same or even better performance and feel, similar durability, and continues to emphasize the quality of the materials in the upper layers that have the most effect on durability. They continue to be among the best quality and value available in the current market today. One other benefit of this lower density higher performance and more resilient material is that it can remain compressed for longer without damaging the foam to accommodate Amazon’s need to keep the mattresses compressed in their warehouse for longer periods of time than may be “'healthy” for a higher density but “stiffer” conventional foam.

All of this more detailed information is to provide some insights into the process involved in changes like this that is part of the daily life and decision process of every manufacturer. It also highlights the differences between how better quality manufacturers approach them with transparency, thought, and genuine integrity and concern for what they are providing to their customers vs the larger brands (that are immune from this type of criticism because they aren’t transparent in the first place) which just make decisions based on their bottom line and the profits of their shareholders or investors regardless of how it affects consumers which are “controlled” by their marketing not by the meaningful information they provide.

So It makes sense to me to include an understanding of the larger and more “complete” picture when you are looking to criticize the “good guys” who really do have the best long term interests of their customers and consumers as a whole at heart so that you don’t unknowingly drive them towards the side of the industry that all of us are hoping to change. A little bit of knowledge (either about the materials they are using or without a more complete context of the “inside” of the industry and the challenges and pressures that smaller manufacturers face) can be a dangerous thing and can cause more harm than good … unintended or not.

Would you choose to provide complete transparency to consumers if it resulted in becoming a “target of opportunity” based on partial information and caused you harm when you made necessary business choices that had the best interests of their customers in mind? What would you do if transparency prevented you from gaining the rewards of hard work, effort, and integrity that you deserved and if not being transparent was just as profitable and would shield you from the criticisms and potential loss of business that it brings? These are not big corporations … they are good people who struggle with difficult issues every day and maintain the integrity to do the right thing based on a complete picture that is far more challenging than most consumers realize.

As you know … consumers as a whole have little knowledge or even interest in knowing how to make better mattress choices because it’s “easier” to buy into marketing or have someone else tell them what to buy than to spend the time or do the work that legitimate research can involve. They are however heavily swayed by reviews which they often use to replace legitimate comparative research. Critical reviews, even if they have limited context or are based on incomplete information, can cause them to make decisions that may even be against their own best interests in the current market and can certainly cause harm to good companies.

In this “reality” of the market … wouldn’t it make more sense to just remove all specs and transparency from the process if “educated consumers” that only knew “part of the story” and had real influence were using pieces of information that they knew about to influence consumers against one of the most transparent manufacturers in the industry when these same customers could otherwise be purchasing one of the best value mattresses in the current market even though it’s not quite the same as it was in the past?

Don’t forget that most consumers don’t even really care about this type of detailed information (which hopefully this site is helping to change) but they will willingly follow someone’s opinion who seems to know what they are talking about because it’s “easier” than doing their own research based on what is available to them now.

The reason they continue to disclose as much as they do is because they have integrity and want consumers to know and be more informed. The good and sometimes the bad and the ugly is out in the open. This is part of who they (and other better manufacturers) are at heart. If this is used against them though and “pieces of a larger story” start to cause them harm … then any reasonable manufacturer would start to re-think their willingness to be transparent in the first place when the manufacturers that aren’t are continuing to dominate the market … with the “blessing” (and the money) of consumers that are looking for an easy way to make decisions that doesn’t involve their own time, effort, and independent research.

Just some food for thought :slight_smile:

Phoenix

Phoenix,

Again, I understand the reasoning behind any change in their own product line. I encourage businesses to change things, they have to, to stay competitive. I also understand that this is one of the ‘good guys’. This isn’t what bothers me about this situation. The issue is whether this changes the product to something else. Perception is everything. The change could be the closest possible they could get to the original but to me, this is a SUBSTANTIAL change. Time and time again as a small business owner myself - I’ve learned perception is everything. I don’t want to nor do I have time (does anybody?) to keep up with product changes, foam qualities, and new manufacturing elements being introduced into mattress making.

Here’s an example of what I mean:
One of my favorite brands of knitting needles is Hiya Hiya. They offer bamboo tips, stainless steel tips, different point types and different tip lengths. All these options are well made and the manufacturer offers a good replacement policy. If I purchased a Hiya Hiya Sharps interchangeable set with 5" tips, I would be very upset if they sent me a Hiya Hiya Bamboo interchangeable set with 5" tips. Effectively, the needles are the same and they are used for the same purpose. However, this little change makes a whole lot of difference to me, not withstanding the business being “one of the good guys”.

I feel they should have been more explicit in saying that they’ve changed the mattress in the Amazon description along with posting the updated foam density information there as well. If they post changes such as this in their Amazon description, this would be a different conversation. Also if they educated their own customers from the product description on Amazon this would be different. Instead, I find that my original review contains outdated information that doesn’t reflect the new information on the mattress from another possible consumer. They may have MEANT to be open and transparent about the newer materials in the mattress but it doesn’t feel like they are being open and transparent to me.

A solution to this issue would be for them to update their Amazon product description to note the new poundage of the base foam and to note product changes. Version numbers would help (I’m a software developer) along with patch notes :slight_smile: This is common practice to me. Yes, I did change my review to note that I’ve gotten a previous version of Dreamfoam… software (LOL). However, that still doesn’t excuse the fact they are still using reviews for these previous versions without fully disclosing in the description that CHANGES have been made to their software (hehe).

Feel can be very subjective and some people may feel the difference and some may not. The compressed wool will slightly reduce the amount of compression in the layers below it while the foam quilting can add to the softness of the comfort layers. Some people can “feel” even the smallest differences between two mattresses while for others it takes a much larger difference for them to notice. Wool will also make a difference in ventilation and temperature control. Phoenix
[/quote]

Can you please elaborate on the bolded statement? Will wool give a cooler feel? I live in a hot climate, and I’m experiencing menopausal hot flashes, so I don’t want a mattress that sleeps hot which is why I’m researching latex mattress. Thanks for your help.

Hi Marla,

The entry level Cotton Camilla model uses 1.5 lb density base foam and also doesn’t have the wool quilting. Both the Bamboo Bliss and the Aloe Alexis have the higher density 2.17 lb base foam and wool in the quilting layer.

You can read a little more about some of the properties of wool quilting in post #6 here.

Post #2 here and post #29 here also includes more information about all the factors that can affect the temperature regulation of a mattress besides just the foam used in the comfort layers.

Even though latex as a category is the most breathable of the foam materials … natural fibers like wool, linen, cotton, silk, and viscose fibers like bamboo and other rayon type fabrics will wick and disperse moisture (and the heat it contains) more effectively over the course of the night than any foam material by itself and the quilting, ticking (cover), mattress protector, sheets, and bedding in your sleep system can have just as big an effect on temperature regulation as the foam used in the mattress.

Phoenix

What about longevity?

I’m looking at the Ultimate Dreams mattress versus the Bamboo Bliss and I’ve read all the hoopla about the change to 1.5 lb foam. Would it realistically make a difference in how long I can expect the mattress to last? Or is it just not a factor since other layers will degrade faster anyway?

I’m hoping for something that lasts 10 years at least as my last purchase (an S-brand) didn’t even last 5 and I think contributed to my back problems.

Hi carfey,

I think my comments in post #14 of the thread would be my best answer to your question …

[quote]The density/durability of the base layer is not usually the weak link of a mattress but the performance of the base layers can be an important factor in how it feels. Of course with heavier weights that “go through” the top layers more, the density of a base layer can play a larger role in durability but this is still secondary to the top layers.

The new base layer is a higher performance but lower density foam and for most people … the increased performance of the new base layer is a good tradeoff and results in a mattress that has the same performance and feel, similar durability, and continues to emphasize the quality of the materials in the upper layers that have the most effect on durability.[/quote]

In other words … for most people that are not above average weight ranges then there would be little significant difference from a durability standpoint.

Phoenix

Thanks Phoenix.

My wife and I are average weight so I guess the base layer wouldn’t have that big of an impact

At this point I’m leaning to the Ultimate Dreams. I suppose worst case the mattress doesn’t last as long as I’d hope but I think it’s pretty likely my quality of sleep will improve drastically anyway.

Also I can review my experience in a few months and help inform other forum members.

Hi carfey,

If you are an “average” weight or even slightly more (in which case I would tend to choose a firmer than “average” comfort layer) then I think this would make a great “budget” choice and it’s certainly great quality/value in its budget range.

The key is to make the best possible choice for the firmness of your comfort layer and of course they can help you with this … particularly if you have a reference point of latex mattresses you have tried where you know the firmness of the top few inches of latex in the mattress you tested.

Phoenix

TMU is perfect for researching mattress. I have found answers for all my questions and narrowed my choices to BB’s line up. This thread sealed the deal. I am 6’2" 195#, the wife 5’8" 135# and both side sleepers I feel that the Bamboo Bliss (Level 6) will be a perfect fit. Will be calling BB later today to notify them of my TMU membership and 5% discount. Also saw somewhere that if you like their FB page you receive two free latex pillows?

Thanks!

Hi 8hrzzz,

I’m glad the site could help you … and congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:

You are certainly making a good quality/value choice and as you know you have further options if you decide you need to exchange the comfort layer for a different firmness level.

Yes … this promotion is mentioned on the front page of their site which would give you a “double” bonus :slight_smile:

Phoenix

This thread was great help for me. I just made my final decision about buying queen mattress. I almost bought Ultimate Dreams Eurotop from amazon but after reading this thread I have changed my mind and will buy 12" Bamboo Bliss tomorrow. Thank you very much!!!