Brooklyn Bedding

[phoenix]

Hi sdmark,

The need to have realistic expectations makes some sense. As for me, I slept fairly happily on a single Sealy from 1994 through 2011. It had probably “dented in” after ten or twelve years–I remember sleeping diagonally for a while–but it didn’t become a problem until much later. So that’s where my expectations come from.

I only wish that the major manufacturers made the same quality/value mattresses today that they did a decade or two ago … unfortunately they don’t … especially in the last 15 years or so since the rush to one sided mattress was started by Simmons. You can read more about this in post #3 here and post #404 here.

The warranty process is, I think, where the whole industry, with the big S companies in the lead, has really failed consumers. The 1.5" threshold is an ancient rule of thumb that may have made sense in the “old days” when top layers were thinner and more resilient (hope I’m using the right word there). The problem is that even when new poly and memory foam layers lose resiliency, they still spring back when you get up, making almost every warranty claim pointless. Companies are applying an old standard to new materials, which basically cheats consumers. As one of those cheated, I’m not happy about it.

Things need to be warranted as they are actually used. Imagine if your car warranty was only valid if the symptoms were evident with the car parked and the motor turned off. “What do you mean the brakes are squealing? I don’t hear anything.”

You’re certainly right about this … and in most cases in the mainstream industry today warranties are used as a marketing or closing tool rather than as a meaningful benefit. A big part of the value of a warranty is the culture and policies of the company that honors it and this is where smaller manufacturers that are more dependent on their reputation than on their advertising generally rise above their larger competitors.

To warranty a mattress, its performance while in use must be measured. Ideally one would warranty that the mattress’s total ILD would not decrease more than x% per year. But probably field-testing ILD is too difficult, so how about a standard weight, say a 24" round 50lb. dumbbell weight. Placed anywhere on the mattress, if the bottom sinks in more than x inches below the edge of the mattress, too much resiliency has been lost.

This would also be great … but it would also lead to more costly mattresses that used higher density foams or more durable materials which would then put many mainstream mattresses out of range for many consumers and they would lose market share. The mainstream manufacturers also aren’t likely to ever go in the direction of including loss of ILD in their warranties because it would reduce sales significantly and they are well aware that if a mattress is replaced a few years down the road that most consumers will once again buy based on the current advertising which convinces them that “things are different now than when you bought your last mattress” and they will make new versions of the same mistakes all over again. This is the outcome of the lack of transparency in the mainstream industry and sadly the market share of the “advertising oriented” manufacturers is still increasing because consumers don’t know what to believe any more and marketing information has replaced meaningful quality information as a way to buy a mattress.

Probably preaching to the choir here, but if the materials of an entire industry change, the warranty needs to change to keep up. It would be nice to see some of the smaller vendors take the lead in offering fairer warranties that more accurately reflect how the product should perform in normal use.

This is a much more complex issue than you may imagine because of the many factors involved with durability and the useful life of a mattress and the current state of the market and consumer awareness but the smaller manufacturers are already leading the way in terms of the quality/durability of the materials they use and the “value” they put in their mattresses and also in the more liberal way that many of them will apply their warranties in real life (oriented more to the customer than protecting themselves against claims). Even with the current exclusions … their warranties are much more realistic because of how they’re applied. In today’s market … “realistic warranties” could also cost legitimate smaller manufacturers most of their business because they would “look worse” than longer warranties that aren’t realistic or meaningful and they are already under tremendous pressure. Consumers as a whole tend to believe anything that is repeated many times and don’t often look into the facts behind what they are being told so this is as much a consumer education issue as a warranty issue.

Phoenix

[sdmark]

Sounds like it would take FTC action and/or class action lawsuits to effect broad change. I’m a little surprised not to have seen more of both.

[dndndn]

My 2 cents, for what it’s worth …

Ironically, I’ve seen what I believe the roots of the problem are, even here on this forum. People wanting as cheap as can be and then some, and demanding that retailers provide that option. Where consumers demand cheaper and cheaper, and vote with their dollars, don’t be too surprised that the manufactures/retailers try to figure out how to satisfy that demand (profitably), which at some point means cutting corners.

Heck, this entire thread is on the Brooklyn Bedding thread, questioning the quality of one of their low cost mattresses (and perhaps all of their mattresses). I’m sort of an interested observer to this forum, and I’d guess 50-75% of the folks are here soliciting advice on how to obtain a mattress cheaper… Phoenix has been talking ‘value’, but many seem to interpret that getting the same for cheaper.

Business (which is my background) isn’t stupid , there’s a market with consumers willing to pay cash money though are persistently demanding lower cost. Business is just servicing what the demand is for.

The mattress industry isn’t the only one. How many here have asphalt shingles on their roof? Another industry I became familiar with- the shingle industry (yes, for on top of your house), is similar. Most people have asphalt shingles. They suck. The warranty sucks. There are better alternatives that are more durable, more eco friendly, backed by better companies, have real warranties, you name it - the same sort of tune as the mattress industry. Turns out… cheap crap with minimal value sells there too, because it works well enough and the better stuff is either more money, or, more difficult to find, or both. Sounds familiar?

I get a kick when I see people saying they want an expensive mattress but won’t pay for it… they found one (often a tempurpedic), and want to duplicate it. Then, inevitably, it’s not quite the same. I think Phoenix has been amazing at saying how nearly impossible it is to duplicate the feel of a mattress, and think there’s subtle wisdom in how he presents the info he does. He has said that you probably won’t be able to duplicate a mattress, but, instead you might be able to come close enough for some people and pocket the difference, which may be of better value depending on the person.

Anyhow, looking back to the ‘good ole days, when mattresses were better’, I’d be curious about what percentage of the average household income went into purchasing a mattress. My guess, like so many things in this new age, the amount people are spending by percentage of their household earnings has decreased …

Everyone here has the opportunity to buy the more expensive models…some of which have delightful service, warranty, etc. It’s all part of the ‘value’ equation that Phoenix laid out. But where most of the consumers decide they want cheap… well… no surprise, that’s what they got.

[sdmark]

dn, I see your point, but

1. I paid $440 plus tax on 8/1/1994 for a Sealy Eden Pillowtop. That’s equivalent to $693 today. The mattress lasted 18 years = $38.50/year in 2013 dollars.

2. I paid $461 plus tax on 2/18/2012 for a Sealy Cason Bay Ti Firm Pillowtop. That’s equivalent to $469 today. The mattress lasted 1.5 years or $307.33/year in 2013 dollars, about 8 times the cost of the previous model.

Yes, my bad for still having that $500 figure in mind when I went shopping in 2011. But somehow I don’t think I would have gotten a mattress 8 times better if I had been thinking $700.

The main issue seems to be the extra top layers of polyfoam. I thought I had heard something about new foams being petroleum-based (by law?) but in this post, Phoenix makes a good argument for it going back to Simmons’ successful introduction of the one-sided mattress.

[dndndn]

Oh I’m not saying it’s you’re fault sdmark! It’s a systemic thing. And frustrating… I’ve worked in an industry where we offered a ‘superior’ product, and at every single sale we had to try to educate the market about why their notion of value was wrong and why we were better. (Example Analogy in mattress world, why most pillow tops are likely bad for your mattress - they’re probably cheaply made and will fail fast).

The company I was with eventually failed - national leader & pioneer to bankrupt. One lesson I learned is, if you are trying to tell the market / the customers what they need, or having to ‘educate’ each one significantly prior to sale, you’ll almost inevitably fail. It’s exasperating to offer a great product at great price, and have customers tell you it’s still too expensive and take their money elsewhere (and then complain their new product failed in exactly the way you try to coach your customers will happen). At some point, as a business (especially if you can’t find enough customers who do value the extra benefits you offer), you say screw it and sell what people are willing to spend cash on- at the end of the day, it’s their decision.

I believe one of the better aspects of this forum is helping educate the consumer, so the mattress makers that make good products don’t need to.

[phoenix]

Hi sdmark,

“Better” really depends on how you define it and includes subjective, objective, and intangible elements.

One part of “better” is the suitability of a mattress and how well you sleep on it and this can’t be measured except subjectively. If you buy a mattress that costs $2000 and the materials are too soft … then even a small amount of foam softening can put you outside the range of comfort and support that is suitable for you. In some cases it may be unsleepable from the beginning. In this case the mattress would only be useable for very short period of time if at all even though the materials themselves are nowhere close to being “worn out” and it may be a lower cost than any other mattress that used similar materials. Even the best quality and value mattress in the world would have little value for someone that couldn’t sleep on it because the design wasn’t suitable for them and in this case a mattress that was suitable may be 100 times “better” than one you can’t sleep on at all no matter what the quality or price. How do you objectify the quality of sleep in any meaningful way and yet this is arguably the most important part of a mattress purchase and will have a bigger effect on how you feel than any other part of a mattress purchase.

Another part of value … and a big part of what you pay for … is the quality and durability of the materials. This is something that you can’t feel in a showroom because even the lowest quality materials can feel the same as higher quality materials … for a while. Once again though as the lower quality materials change, soften, or break down more quickly over time … the mattress can quickly cross your threshold and be outside the range of what is suitable for you even if it is still suitable for someone else who purchased the same mattress and had more “room” in their range of comfort and support that was suitable for them. Higher quality materials will stay closer to their original specifications for a longer period of time.

There are also many other parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase that may be part of each person’s “personal value equation” and are outlined in post #46 here. For some people a relatively small difference between mattresses or the options that a mattress provides or a retailer or manufacturer makes available may be highly significant and “valuable” for them … even if it wasn’t for someone else. For some people … the difference in sleep quality between good and great or the ability of a retailer to help them find the mattress that is “best” for them may be worth 10 times the cost for them if nothing else comes close to their ideal.

In many cases who you buy from can be just as important a part of a successful purchase as what you buy.

In other words… “value” can include objective, subjective, and even intangible elements and to reduce it to only one of these (such as durability alone which is also relative to each person) or to a formula can lead to paying the price in different ways including the quality of their sleep. If someone sleeps well on a mattress for 10 years and on another mattress they only sleep well for a year and then sleep OK or worse for another 9 years with the mattress gradually getting worse and worse until they can’t stand it any more and finally decide to replace it … how much “better” is the first mattress than the second. Both of them “lasted” for the same length of time. The real cost of a poor choice can be much more than any difference in price between two mattresses. At the end of the day most people will remember much more about how well they slept on a mattress and how long it lasted than they will about what they paid for it when it was new.

The main issue seems to be the extra top layers of polyfoam. I thought I had heard something about new foams being petroleum-based (by law?) but in this post, Phoenix makes a good argument for it going back to Simmons’ successful introduction of the one-sided mattress.

Not only the extra top layers or the lack of two sided mattresses but also the quality of the top layers as well as there has been a trend in the mainstream industry towards using lower quality materials and charging higher prices. Some of the “myths” that many consumers believe include things like “a thicker mattress is better”. A foam can be made from many raw materials and there is no law that it needs to use petrochemicals. As a matter of fact there is a current industry trend towards replacing petrochemicals with plant based alternatives although it’s also the basis for a great deal of greenwashing (see post #2 here).

In the end … “value” is really an assessment that is as individual and unique as each person and can’t really be reduced to a formula.

Phoenix

PS: @dn I agree with the points you made and your insights completely … and some of the best quality/value manufacturers in the country are not as good at “competing” in the face of the overwhelming “noise” of advertising that is so common in the industry today even though they are much “better” in any meaningful evaluation that includes real quality or value.

[sdmark]

Phoenix, maybe I was oversimplifying, but I think both mattresses were probably equally comfortable to start, and let me sleep well. So I was using longevity and durability to compare.

Just for grins, I took a very brief look at the German mattress market. When I lived there in the 1980s, they seemed less subject to hype and fads than Americans. I get the impression that is still the case. That may be in part because of the long tradition of smaller, local vendors for home goods (though I’m sure the Internet, as well as big stores like Ikea, are putting national pressure on them). For example, this page by a 3-person store in a Berlin suburb has a nice overview and pictures of mattress types:

Matratzen – So dankt es Ihnen Ihre Wirbelsäule

Glancing at the pics in their store, almost all mattresses are reversible, most look to have fairly thin comfort layers, and there is nary a pillowtop in sight:

bettenklick.de - This website is for sale! - bettenklick...

Imagine, a whole country sleeping without pillowtops! (Don’t tell Sealy/Simmons/Serta.)

[phoenix]

Hi sdmark,

I completely agree with you that the European market is very much different and more advanced in design and technology than the North American market. They are also much more minimalistic and don’t go overboard with mattress designs nearly as much as you see here. They also tend to use more technology and fabrication in their mattresses such as cutaways in various zones and surface modifications to reduce the need for separate comfort layers. Much of the “new” designs that are introduced in North America originates in Europe. Thinner mattresses are certainly more the norm there and materials like latex are much more common. Even the foam materials are different there and they even have some companies that make polyfoam and memory foam that is OekoTex certified (the same certification for VOC’s and safety that is more common for latex here). They also have Interzum which is probably the single best furniture ad mattress trade show in the world and anyone I know that has gone there tells me that it is head and shoulders above any of the shows in North America.

Phoenix

[sdmark]

I was curious how prices compare. Ikea Germany offers the Favang and Fjordgard that I looked at here, with identical layers and thicknesses. Their largest mattress is 63 x 79 inches. Comparing that to the smaller 60 x 80 queen size at Ikea San Diego:

Favang
Germany: $202 + 19% tax = $229
San Diego: $329 + 8% tax = $355
Pre-tax price 62% higher in San Diego

Fjordgard
Germany: $508 + 19% tax = $606
San Diego: $679 + 8% tax = $733
Pre-tax price 34% higher in San Diego

Such a comparison is anecdotal, of course, and the higher U.S. prices could be in part because it costs Ikea more to import here. But if the prices are also a indication of what the market will bear, it seems Ikea is surviving on much less there, and even after Germany’s 19% sales tax, consumers get a better deal too.

[Stuff]

Thread got a bit off-topic but something related -

Looking around BB seems to have the best web site to find info their “normal” products compared to other vendors. Unfortunately the Dreamfoam listings are not there and on Amazon can be a bit lacking. Phoenix has said the best is to talk to the vendors. After going through hundreds of posts here I can understand that.

[phoenix]

Hi Stuff,

Your right that this thread did go somewhat off topic although the discussion certainly has been interesting

Phoenix has said the best is to talk to the vendors. After going through hundreds of posts here I can understand that.

I completely agree with you on this (as you know) and I would strongly encourage anyone to have a more detailed phone conversation to talk about comfort choices or specific information about their mattresses with any online retailer or manufacturer. They know more about their mattresses and the materials they use than anyone and will almost always be the most reliable source of good information both about the details of their mattresses and about the comfort choices that may work best based on the averages of their customers that have a similar body type, sleeping style, and preferences.

Thanks for putting the thread back on track.

Phoenix

[sdmark]

Quick Reply killed me again. Typed a response, clicked on Reply, message deleted!

Had a useful conversation yesterday with Mario at BB about their return policy and the very attractive idea of being able to upgrade from a topper to a mattress.

Mario couldn’t talk about Dreamfoam, and the Dreamfoam number went to voicemail, so I sent an email. No response yet.

[phoenix]

Hi sdmark,

I’m not sure what’s happening with the quick reply (I used it for this reply and it seems to work for me) but it may have to do with session timeouts and/or temporary disconnects from wireless. Over many years on various forums I’ve developed the habit of highlighting and copying all my replies on forums before I click submit because murphy’s law (what can go wrong will go wrong) always seems to apply and if a post is going to be lost in the ether then it always seems to be the ones that take the most time

Phoenix

[sdmark]

Clipboard is a good idea that I obviously don’t always remember ;). Quick Reply works fine if you click on Submit. The confusing thing is that it leaves the Quick Reply / Reply / Quote buttons “live” in the lower right corner, arguably the most common place to look to for the “OK do it” button on a computer screen. If you type a Quick Reply and click Reply … poof! … you’re on a blank Reply window. IMO that’s a Kunena bug because often you might start with a Quick Reply, then decide you want more advanced formatting and click on Reply. It should copy what you’ve already typed into the full Reply window.

[phoenix]

Hi sdmark,

If you type a Quick Reply and click Reply … poof! … you’re on a blank Reply window. IMO that’s a Kunena bug because often you might start with a Quick Reply, then decide you want more advanced formatting and click on Reply. It should copy what you’ve already typed into the full Reply window.

OK … that makes sense to me now. I think that the best solution would be to deactivate the other buttons when you’re in the quick reply screen so that nothing happens if you click reply (or as you mentioned to copy the current reply into the new window but that may be more complex).

I don’t know the programming that would be involved for Kunena to do this either way but it would certainly be a good idea for them to add the feature to a future version although they usually have a long list of feature requests that they work on for each new version already. I don’t think they would call this a bug (it’s probably doing what they wanted it to do) or as a “best practice” issue but either way I’ll mention it in their forum when I have the chance

Phoenix

[sdmark]

Sounds like it might be available in some templates but it’s not core Kunena functionality:

http://www.kunena.org/forum/K-2-0-Blue-Eagle-Templates/127535-quick-reply-box-at-the-bottom-of-the-page-like-they-have-in-phpbb3-forums

I have seen that “Go Advanced” functionality in other forums which raises my expectations of what it “should” do. But in general, if a program discards user data without warning, I call it a bug :).

Sorry, off-topic again…

[jefmoody]

As I’ve mentioned multiple times, I choose the Aloe Alexis Level 3 (36/32 ILD)…While I love this bed I do tend to side sleep much more now that I have it (or became more aware of side-sleeping). With this in mind I decided to have a 3" slice of 28 ILD sent to me for a replacement so I can try it out to see if I like it better. At this time I am going to try the 28 over the 36 and see if side-sleeping is more comfortable.
I’ll report back in a few days.

[jefmoody]

15 days have passed, I kept the 36/28 ILD combo and sent the 32 ILD slice of Latex back - really easy process except for getting the unused slice of foam in the plastic (very floppy).
What I like is that I can side-sleep without soreness; however, it is still firm for my wife (the stomach sleeper) and when I sleep on my back.
I have already sang praises for the Aloe Alexis so I won’t rehash all of that…Suffice it to say, Almost three months have past since I first received the mattress and I still love it and have better health as a result.

[phoenix]

Hi jefmoody,

Thanks for the update I appreciate it.

I’m glad the layer exchange worked out well for you

Phoenix

[benohart]

Well this is my experience… So far, Happy with the Product, although not sure I would call this Honest Sales.
This is NOT about the petty amount of $… I am simply disappointed with the tactic used to make the sale rather than being upfront about the delivery date.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Hart
Sent: Monday, April 7, 2014 2:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Enquiry Ben Hart

Hi,

My wife and I recently purchased a King Size, Bamboo Bliss from your company, order (####)

So far, we are really happy with the quality and comfort of the mattress and it seams the reviews we read on sites like themattressunderground.com represent your company well when it comes to the quality of your product.

I also found the sales staff to be extremely helpful in selecting the mattress and even gave us a discount to compensate for not being able to deliver the mattress before the weekend, however, therein lies the problem… Having recently moved from Australia, we where scheduled to move into our new apartment and we were promised the mattress would arrive on Monday March 31st. When we arrived to the apartment that afternoon, we found that the mattress had not arrived, after phoning Fedex, we were advised that the commitment date was actually Wednesday the 2nd April and not Monday as we had been advised.

As we had no mattress, we were forced to find an alternative accommodation for the evening and slept on an air mattress the following evening. While it’s difficult to put a price on the frustration, inconvenience and bad night sleeps caused by this, I would at least like to request we are compensated for the $114 it cost us for accommodation the night our mattress didn’t show up which is about as cheap as accommodation comes in NY unless you are willing to risk bed bugs!

Looking forward to your response and happy to forward receipts for accommodation if required.

Response

On 8 April 2014 09:32, Mario Sevilla [email protected] wrote:

Hello Ben,

I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused, we arrange the shipments with FedEx to arrive within 3 business days of the date requested on, I see that the request was to have the mattress arrive on or just after the 31st so that this did not arrive before you were fully moved. Unfortunately we are not able to arrange a specific date for delivery and are at the mercy of FedEx ground service. As we do not charge shipping and we also included an additional $150 discount I am unfortunately not going to be able to allow additional compensation as requested. Enjoy your new mattress and thank you again for shopping with us! Please feel free to contact me if you have any additional questions.

Best Regards,

Mario Sevilla | Sales Manager |
www.brooklynbedding.com

From: Ben Hart
Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 7:55 AM
To: Mario Sevilla
Subject: Re: Enquiry Ben Hart

Mario,

The request was to have the mattress to be delivered on or before Saturday the 29th! The 150 was to compensate for the additional Saturday and Sunday night we would need to extend our hotel stay, NOT for the Monday and Tuesday. Had you advised the earliest time of arrival would be Monday and that it could possibly be Tuesday or Wednesday, there is NO WAY we would have proceeded with the sale. You advised it WOULD be there by Monday… We set our official move in date to Monday based on the assumption it would arrive Monday, we already had access to the apartment on FRIDAY…

If you still have access to the chat transcript, this should be quite clear. I appreciate that everyone is at the mercy of the delivery company, however, Fedex held up their end of the agreement, you were not forthcoming in the actual commitment date of the 2nd.
I hope this email has clarified our position and again, I will give you the opportunity to compensate us for the financial loss caused.

Regards
Ben

Hello Ben,

I Apologize, I am not going to be able to offer any additional discount for your order. Please feel free to contact me if you have any additional questions.

Regards,

Mario Sevilla