I wanted to also mention that drawing the line down your spine using a marker while standing (line should follow the spine ridge) really helps to visualize what’s going on, great idea. When you lie on the bed it shows up very well against any straight lines you draw on the photos for posture. I figured I would add one trick, that if you use a sharpie to draw the line on your back you can just use isopropyl alcohol and it will wipe right off when you are all done (no scrubbing at all).
Dear Phoenix,
I’d love if you could chime in.
I am still unsure about returning the MGM. Mattrebuild suggests to start from a clean slate, rather than trying to make MGM work for me.
I feel like my lower back alignment is pretty well and so I am a little anxious returning the mattress and losing what I have gained thus far, even though that probably is what is needed. Do you see a way to improve the shoulder situation? Maybe with a 3" talalay topper 14-19 ILD rather than the 2"Dunlop?
Do you agree that zoning is the way to go, or have I not found the perfect support/comfort layer combination to combine wide shoulder give with skinny waist and wide hip support? This must be an issue that comes up quite frequent.
Basically I wonder what we can derive from my past experiments and alignment to what would be a solution and to at least start with more knowledge of what works.
Also I’d be happy about recommendations which companies to look at from here.
Annika
Hi Ana.
It was only today that I became aware of your call for help. We are doing daily triages and your posts did not show up on my board. So sorry for the delay… I was taking the “silence” as a god sign thinking that all is good with you now. I am glad to see the good progress you made (even if it does not seem so) and that you’ve had great guidance from Mattrebuild. Having worked so methodically we all gained e a better understanding of your sleeping landscape and IMO you are in a much better position now than before. As you are an 80% side sleeper with wide shoulders and hips, and a narrow waist, it looks like you’ve reached the end of what this mattress can do for you (with or without a topper) because of the width and weight differential of different body sections.
It seems like you are very well tuned in to your body as you’ve been able to clearly identify and describe what you are experiencing on each different mattress/topper setup. The photos and overview you uploaded are demonstrating alignment issues (nice to see the little one chiming in. to help mom:)) and I agree with Mattrebuild that the “clean slate” approach with zoning in mind is probably the best way to move forward.
In your case zoning systems could be very useful and well worth considering. Zoning, in general, is suitable for people that have more difficulty finding a mattress with the right “balance” between comfort/pressure relief (under the shoulders especially) and support/alignment (under the hips/pelvis especially) or who have more challenging circumstances or sensitivities, body types that are more difficult to “match” to a mattress, more complex medical issues, or who have a history of having more difficulty in finding a mattress that works well for them. There is more about zoning in
this article and in
post #11 here and the additional posts it links to but the only way to know whether any specific mattress (zoned or otherwise) will be a good match for you in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP will be based on careful testing or your own personal experience.
Zoning would be necessary because of the difference in weight, thickness/thinness, and surface area of three main areas of the body that are the most difficult to accommodate. The first of these is the hip/pelvic area which carries the greatest amount of weight and has the greatest density, no matter what type of body you have, and often has a wider profile (especially in women). The second is the waist/lumbar area which is often lighter and thinner and has a lower density. The third is the shoulder/chest area. When sleeping on the side the shoulders have a narrower/less surface area and will sink in more easily until they reach the torso which is often wider than the hips but lighter and lower density. Dealing with these 3 areas in all the different sleeping positions and differences in body profiles and the difficulties associated with balancing them in terms of pressure relief and alignment is the reason that zoning is sometimes used in more unusual profiles or extreme body weights. It is appropriate and can be very helpful when a progressive or differential method of construction cannot accommodate the circumstances. You have done ample experimenting and have not been able to accommodate your unique needs.
Some of the theory behind zoning schemes with more zones (which have to be matched to the individual sleeper)… a firmer section under the recessed area of the lumbar can also be useful so you can have a softer shoulder section, a firmer pelvic section, and a section under the recessed part of the lumbar curve or waist that is a little firmer yet under the inward curve of the lumbar (on the back) or the waist (on the side). These would be a “standard” zoning scheme that would generally fit the most people. A firmer section under the knees to help keep them from bending sideways (on the side) or keep them slightly bent (on the back) can also be helpful. In general terms the recessed spaces of the body can benefit from firmer materials and the protruding pressure points can benefit from a softer material. Other less critical areas that can benefit from zoning would be some of the other recessed gaps or wider areas in the body profile such as the space between the buttocks and the thighs, the thighs, the neck and cervical spine, and under the heels which for some people can be a pressure point. With more and narrower zones the odds become higher that some people may not line up with the zones as well (see post #18 here ).
We do have a zoning expert Flowbeds that you could reach out to for guidance on their own dedicated forum. FloBeds offers a zoned option in varying firmness levels.
This is one of the Flobeds configurations that I think would be good for you
Also, have you reached out to My Green Mattress to explain what you’ve been experiencing on the mattress, your experiments, and asked for anything they may advise? They are extremely knowledgeable and would certainly recognize when they reach the end of what the mattress can offer for a particular body type.
There are other members that offer zoned constructions but I don’t know how well these can fit someone with such wide differences between the 3 main body areas (shoulders waist and hips).
The Hybrid Slumber System by Luma is also zoned.
Beloit also offers zoned options.
Given your unique comfort and support needs, it’s important that you have a detailed conversation with each vendor prior to your purchase. The companies above are Trusted Members of The Mattress Underground and are knowledgeable and experienced online manufacturers that can help with making the best comfort/support choice if they are given your stats and information about your body types, sleeping styles, general preferences, and history, some general information about mattresses you have tested and done well with, and any other specific information or circumstances that could affect your choice of a mattress.
I am very interested in your next steps and hopeful that you are now on the right track for finding a unique mattress solution that matches your specific needs.
Phoenix
Dear Phoenix,
Thank you for your response. It would be great if we can figure out the glitch of what you didn’t get informed of my messages… let me know if there’s anything I can do on my end about that.
So Me Green Mattress had offered the topper but didn’t seem to have anymore suggestions /solutions beyond that. I did think that the alignment was good so I hadn’t presented the issue correctly, and yesterday talked to someone else. I think the only way the natural escape mgm could serve me would be if I were to do some serious mattress surgery: replacing the shoulder area of 22-24 Dunlop with a softer talalay. The reason why I would want to do that is because my lumbar region has had no back pain on it, which is rare for me in a side sleeping position. Other ideas would be to add a 3" talalay topper, however I’m unsure if that would work well, because adding softness seems to create more other issues. Another idea would be a slatted base, which mgm has not suggested… mh
I thought about if the grace mattress of the quality sleep shop which is associated with mgm and has the same coil system plus microcoils on top could be a start. Unfortunately it has memoryfoam, which i could then either just live with since i believe it’s not in the top area, or again would have to do surgery. Would microcoils be a better option for my issues?
It does feel weird to cut open a mattress that’s not zippable/made for that.
Flobed has been my next solution I’ve been looking at, basically I’m wondering now about hybrids with coils versus all latex, and just feeling the attachment to the mgm zone coil system which seems to work so well for my lumbar region. The avocado btw gives my tingling in my hands as well unless i have 4" of topper on it, which makes me think that 3" on the mgm would be enough, this their coils plus 6" of latex
So much for now would love to hear what you think and will respond again more later
I know this is addressed to Phoenix but I had a few comments which you may find helpful. First, I think you are beginning to understand why a mattress does/doesn’t work for someone (especially spine alignment in this case), this is key to solving your own issues. Second, it sounds like you also are beginning to understand what needs to be done to a mattress to make it work if indeed you believe the fit is close enough to try and achieve what you want from it (obviously there are limits to this, just look at my own build thread and you’ll see what I mean). Lastly, if you look at your photos again, I have tried to fit straight lines to your spine in each case.
Here’s where I drew the additional lines for you to see: https://i.imgur.com/cn2xdfi.png
What you’ll see if that the MGM photo (with no topper at all) shows that your lower back is the most straight and parallel with the bed. This explains perfectly why you “feel” that one gives you no lower back pain at all (I wanted to point out there is some science behind what your feeling). You can also clearly see why in the other photos just adding more soft toppers does not fix the problem and in fact it makes things worse. To see where this mattress has an issue conforming to your weight and body shape all you need to do is look at the angle of the line that follows your upper spine. Just like you pointed out the dunlop comfort layers don’t allow the give needed for your shoulder to protrude into the mattress properly. In order to make the MGM bed work you would need to somehow also straighten out the upper portion of your spine (effectively your shoulders would need to be able to sink into the bed several inches to be able to accomplish this). Making this happen would likely require exactly as you suggested to modify the comfort layers to create a zone to accommodate your shoulders. Obviously this would require cutting open a brand new mattress and modifying it which is why both Phoenix and I had suggested maybe going with a design where the cover was already zippable (making any further changes very easy for you to do). I understand why you might be worried that since you are close with this mattress you don’t want to give that up but sometimes you need to assess how much work it is to take something that’s close and make it perfect versus designing your own in DIY fashion. A DIY hybrid latex bed is perfectly doable since you already know what the layer specs look like inside the MGM. You also mentioned flexible slat style bases (swiss bed) and those may work too (I highly suggest trying one in store if possible) but again whatever you chose may need some amount of tuning to make it work perfectly for you. Anyway I’m not here to sway you towards DIY vs manufactured, but hopefully this helps you understand the thought process you need to be able to accomplish your goal.
Dear Mattrebuild,
I very much appreciate your perspective, thank you.
I looked at zoned mattresses and started looking at Coil systems. I wonder if I can find the mgm coil system anywhere. It appears that most companies, if not all, use the QE patented system and it appears that that has the 17gauge 14gauge (in the Center) setup, and I’m not understanding why the center third is firmer when 17 gauge is actually softer. I started to make an overview of mattresses that interest me and i would be open to diy, I have actually made a baby crib mattress myself already (that we’re not using anymore due to sleeping on the same mattress, but it turned out great), and i love diy projects.
Could you advise me on the coil system and if/where to find that same one that mgm uses? I’ll attach my chart although it’s not finished yet. I do wonder if a pure latex setup can get me as close as i already am with this setup. We’re living rural near la crosse Wisconsin so I’m not sure where to Test lay, albeit i have tested mattresses in stores for the past 5-6 years.
Also with diy i imagine there’s quite some sending layed layers back so I’m not sure if an option like flobed would be a better fit. If i knew exactly what i need, diy would certainly be a top choice.
As a first step, what do you think about the fact that the coil system of 14.5 gauge in center and 15.5 for upper and lower body section is what works for me and how to start with that as my clean slate?
Annika
Dear Mattrebuild,
attached my chart with the options I’m currently looking at.
Annika
Hi Anna.
To avoid confusion I’ll first reply to your questions from yesterday in post #24 and later today I’ll check your posts from today and include any other considerations in my next response to you.
Thank you for your willingness to help Ana. It wasn’t a glitch… it was a skip over which is easy to do with our small team which is wearing many hats. We are working on a more efficient way to keep track of everything but unfortunately to set in motion something like that takes time and some trial and error too.
I totally understand your misgivings and the desire to keep the MGM that proved to serve you well in terms of the alignment of the lower-mid back section when sleeping on your side.
Ok, let’s take it one by one and eliminate any dead ends.…
It seems that Avocado fell off your contender’s list as in whatever topper combo you tried still gives you tingling to hands and feet which indicates that you need a transition layer as well to help with both primary and secondary support. Not worth making that mattress work… plus your" husband not liking the avocado"
FloBeds
I am glad that you still have FloBeds on your list as they have many years of experience of designs and zoning that works for different types of sleepers.
My Green Mattress (MGM)
may still work but you would need to contact MGM and explain that you have an “hour-glass” body profile with side sleeping and are working your way through making it work with a topper and ask them if they would consider giving you an extension.
MGM/Topper combo considerations:
[indent]1. Adding a 3" Talalay in soft (14-19 ILD) as you suggested…. It seems that your gut feeling is at play here and you seem to be quite in tune with your body so I’d listen to that. Also, your experiments thus far seem to support this combo. I would make sure to choose a topper that can be returned just in case things don’t work as well as you would hope.
2. Another option that you could consider is getting 4" a zoned Talalay with firm under your waist and medium under the pelvis. Again, returning it options considerations. This is supported by your experiment with the 4" Dunlop topper where alignment was still good bu but you experienced some body soreness.
3. Keep in mind that nothing is 100% sure to work as all layers work together and a change that seems small at first may compound its effects with other qualities that were just on the[/indent]
MGM mattress surgery considerations:
[indent]• Ask MGM if the top 3" layer is glued on any of its sides. The process of releasing the top layer may prove more difficult than expected.
• An open mattress with a child around may present some problems. Also, a closed cover is important as protection against oxidation/UV exposure for the latex. If all else turns out well in terms of comfort/support you can purchase a zippered mattress encasement/cover and replace the original one.
• Must be comfortable with the trial and error that comes along with this endeavor.
• Use the 3" Talalay in soft (14-19 ILD) that you previously purchased in the process of trying to make the mattress work for MGM without the surgery
• Decide on the zone size (width as one cut you can’t uncut). If you cut the layer opening smaller you can always enlarge it and use another larger slice of the 3" topper. You’d have a limited number of trials.
• As all layers work together you may still bottom out to the firmer layer below and experience some milder version of shoulder pressure points.
• Cutting the latex with any precision may prove a bit difficult[/indent]
Grace from QSS considerations
I’d be cautious about having memory foam with small children even if the foams are certified and have lower levels of VOC. Your child seems to spend a great deal of time with you on this bed.
Also, it may not be worth living with a foam you don’t like to begin with. Again, I’d trust your intuition here witch already tells you NO.
Microcoils topper
[indent]• While microcoils are a high-quality and durable material they are a much more limited choice for a topper and I also haven’t seen one that has a return policy either.
• The microcoil material technology is still developing but has not achieved the support/pressure-relief capabilities of latex.
• Would have a “springier” feel. You can read more about microcoils in this article and in post #8 here and post #2 here .
• You’d still need some type of foam on top of them as the cover may not be enough to prevent the sleeper feeling of the coil underneath.
• How they perform in each specific design that uses them will depend on the other materials that are over and underneath the microcells. They are certainly well worth considering as a comfort layer option for those who have tested it and like it.
• Microcoils have a different response curve (more linear) than latex (which has a more banana-shaped response curve) They work well for those who prefer their feel and resilience or whose testing shows that they do better with this type of response vs foam.[/indent]
DIY I just scanned briefly through the added posts from today and I just noticed that you are still considering DIY
A DIY is certainly an option and can get a bit complex but it is usually a rewarding option if approached in the spirit of adventure. You’d be able to tweak and adjust the mattress to your liking, and can do a side-by-side split if your husband would prefer a different feel or firmness. There are also seasoned experts and resources on TMU to help, if you chose to go that route.
Here are some slicked experts that can offer personalized guidance on how to do this whether you buy from them or not.
Deborah at DIY Natural bedding
Ken at Arizona Premium mattress company is very skilled at helping consumers with their DIY
Shawn and Rodger at Latex Mattress company and its sister company SleepEZ can help with building a DIY as well.
Let me know which of these paths you are still considering and any new additions
Phoenix
@Mattrebuild Great input. Thanks for keeping the ball rolling here…it seems like you are in the EST timezone shift. 
[quote=“Ana” post=87174]Dear Mattrebuild,
I very much appreciate your perspective, thank you.
I looked at zoned mattresses and started looking at Coil systems. I wonder if I can find the mgm coil system anywhere. It appears that most companies, if not all, use the QE patented system and it appears that that has the 17gauge 14gauge (in the Center) setup, and I’m not understanding why the center third is firmer when 17 gauge is actually softer. I started to make an overview of mattresses that interest me and i would be open to diy, I have actually made a baby crib mattress myself already (that we’re not using anymore due to sleeping on the same mattress, but it turned out great), and i love diy projects.
Could you advise me on the coil system and if/where to find that same one that mgm uses? I’ll attach my chart although it’s not finished yet. I do wonder if a pure latex setup can get me as close as i already am with this setup. We’re living rural near la crosse Wisconsin so I’m not sure where to Test lay, albeit i have tested mattresses in stores for the past 5-6 years.
Also with diy i imagine there’s quite some sending layed layers back so I’m not sure if an option like flobed would be a better fit. If i knew exactly what i need, diy would certainly be a top choice.
As a first step, what do you think about the fact that the coil system of 14.5 gauge in center and 15.5 for upper and lower body section is what works for me and how to start with that as my clean slate?
Annika[/quote]
Annika, not sure where you are with this right now but I wouldn’t focus too much on coils/counts/gauges because it can get very confusing (mathematically) to try and sort it all out. It’s easier to talk to the manufacturer if they are willing to provide the info. There are only a few major spring manufacturers out there and many of them use the Leggett & Platt system (not sure which one MGM uses or if it’s available, see below). As Phoenix suggested I would stay away from cutting up the MGM and trying to modify it because the mattress components all work together. When you alter that it can have big affects on how it feels and performs after and you may be disappointed with the result. I don’t think buying it just for the springs would make much sense either from a cost efficiency perspective but obviously it is an option too.
You can see the MGM springs compared to the L&P combi zone here:
https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/concerns-about-zoned-coils
If you like all latex and want to try that route then from a simplicity standpoint it’s hard to beat Flobeds if you wanted a turnkey zoned option. They will work with you to tune the bed to your needs but they don’t sell any hybrid options at this time. Then if you were wanting hybrid and going with DIY then I would probably choose the the non-zoned QE Bolsa springs from L&P to start (talk with Ken from APM about what he suggests too) and then build up your latex talalay comfort/support layers to tailor it to your needs based on alignment and comfort. If you still don’t get what you want in alignment then you can then move to zoning your setup (similar to a Flobeds Vzone) to help get you through the finish line on your project.
Thank you so much, both, Phoenix and Mattrebuild!
I just want to let you know that we’re taking a two week vacation to see family and I’ll have some time on different mattresses and time to contact flobed and finalize some plans. Thus there’s not as much time pressure right now. Mattrebuild I’m also hoping to read your thread soon to understand what your process was and what you were referring to.
Hi Ana,
Thanks for the update and heads-up. We certainly look forward to your return and any other insights you might have from your vacation.
Have a great time with your family!
Phoenix
Ok so I decided to return the MyGreenMattress Natural Escape and order a twin xl Flobed medium base (32 and 28ILD talalay) and medium vzone (medium at hip, firm at lumbar and soft or plush at shoulders). It should arrive mid-march. My husband will just use an old mattress we still have.
It’s above my budget but I just really want to finally sleep well, and didn’t want to deal with any more trial and error, buying and returning…
On vacation I slept horribly and had tingling in hands and feet, so I tried sleeping on the floor and then went back onto the mattresses.
Thank you everyone for the help.