Another new direct-to-consumer mattress start-up has popped up: Casper
Looks like they have a latex top layer but are more expensive than Tuft & Needle. I had made up my mind to buy the new thicker T&N but now I’ll have to wait for the reviews on this one.
EDIT: BTW, This is my first post but I’ve been lurking here, on and off, for a few months. Thanks to all the regulars for your advice.
Interesting FAQs especially the “sack factor” It’s hard enough to get ILDs and density specs…now we have the “sack factor” to consider. I considered a DIY with latex over foam so I am curious to hear any reviews. Casper appears to have only one model that is “to the right of medium/firm.”
Hi adrian,
They are certainly an interesting new entry into the market (and thanks for mentioning them :)) but there is also a fair bit of “marketing speak” on their site and some inaccurate or misleading information.
They are also a completely different type and design of mattress from the Tuft & Needle and use synthetic latex and 4 lb memory foam in the comfort layers which are more costly materials than the polyfoam in the Tuft & Needle (although synthetic latex is the lowest cost type of latex and 4 lb memory foam is in a medium density/quality range for memory foam) so of course more costly materials leads to a mattress that has a higher price.
Reviews are also among the worst ways to choose a mattress because they can’t tell you what you really need to know to make an informed mattress choice (see post #13 here).
The most important part of the “value” of a mattress purchase is making sure that it’s a good match for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences). Each person is unique based on their body type, sleeping positions, individual preferences, and physiology so what is “perfect” for one or even many people in terms of PPP may be completely unsuitable for someone else to sleep on. When you can’t test a mattress in person … then you are completely dependent on the knowledge and experience of an online manufacturer or retailer along with the information you provide them and the results of your own personal testing on similar mattresses to help them help you choose a mattress that would likely be the best “match” for you and if there is only one option then it’s an “all or nothing” choice (see post #2 here). With an online purchase that you can’t test in person … then the options you have after a purchase to fine tune, exchange, or return the mattress may also become a more important part of your personal value equation. In their case … they do have a good 40 day return policy but your own testing or sleeping experience experience will tell you more about how suitable a mattress is for you than any reviews that only tell you how other people feel on the mattress which may be very different from your own experience.
The next most important part of the “value” of a mattress purchase is the durability of the materials. No matter how well a mattress matches your specific needs and preferences in terms of PPP, if it uses lower quality materials they will soften, compress, or break down more quickly than higher quality and more durable materials. This can lead to the premature loss of comfort and support and the need to replace a mattress more quickly than you would otherwise hope (and the loss of comfort and support isn’t a defect that is covered by a warranty). Once again … reviews won’t tell you about how durable a mattress will be for you. The only way to be able to assess the durability of a mattress is by knowing the type and quality of all the materials so you can identify any weak links in the design and make more meaningful comparisons to other mattresses. There is more about the variables that can affect durability and the useful life of a mattress relative to each person in post #4 here and the posts it links to. There is also more in post #4 here about the guidelines I would suggest to assess the quality and suitability of the materials in terms of durability. I would want to know the density of the base foam in the mattress (note added: … it’s 1.8 lb density) but for most people of average weights there wouldn’t be any obvious weak links in the mattress.
While reviews will tell you very little about whether a mattress would be a good choice for you … they can tell you more about the knowledge and service of the business itself. It’s easy to get a flood of good reviews initially because reviews are relatively easy for marketers to manipulate at first (and marketing people are well aware that even though they aren’t particularly useful that reviews can highly influence people’s purchase choices for a mattress) … over the course of time they can give you some insights into how they tend to deal with some of the issues that can arise after a purchase but but this also takes some time for patterns and trends to become clear after the initial “buzz” dies down.
This is one of several examples of incorrect or somewhat misleading information on their site and it seems that the marketing people had more to do with some of the information there than “mattress people”. Compression modulus is a foam specification that tells how quickly a material becomes firmer as you compress it more deeply and it has several other names including “sag factor” which is what they probably mean. Of course it’s also possible that “sack factor” is mentioned in humor but it’s unlikely because only someone who knows about compression modulus would “get it” which is a small percentage of the population so it’s more likely that this and some of the other information on their site was the result of marketing people not completely understanding what they were putting on the site.
Overall it’s an interesting option and on a personal level I do like the “feel” of a thin layer of latex over memory foam (although there are other designs I prefer more) but this is also just a personal preference of mine and would also have nothing to do with what any other people may prefer.
Phoenix
This is great information. Phoenix, do you think that having 1-1/2 of synthetic latex and 1-1/2 inch of 4lb foam is worth the price? I"m kind of curious about that. It seems like from reading your materials page that the Casper mattress seems to be hitting all the minimum points which makes it better in my book than T&N since they only use 2lb foam. I’m asking about the weight of their base layer and it does seem like their website is all talk.
Their return policy is fair and actually shocking since they let you return it within 40 days versus other companies requiring you to keep it for 30-60 days
Hi frozendarkness,
That would depend entirely on how well you sleep on it. If it’s a good match for you then it would be. If it isn’t … then it wouldn’t. The price of the mattress as a whole seems reasonable to me although there are also mattresses available from the members here that use 8" or 9" of synthetic latex in the same approximate price range and they have the ability to customize the layers both before and after a purchase. There are also latex hybrid mattresses available that use 3" of blended Talalay latex (which is a more costly material than either 4 lb memory foam or synthetic Dunlop latex) with a polyfoam base layer that are in a lower budget range than the Casper. The most important part of the “value” of a mattress purchase is how well it matches your specific needs and preferences in terms of PPP and the quality/durability of the materials and there are certainly other options available in this price range that use the same or better quality materials overall.
A mattress isn’t a commodity where you can use a formula to determine value based on the cost per inch or pound of materials and the “value” of a mattress purchase needs to include all the other factors that your “best judgement” tells you is “best for you” regardless of whether it may be best for someone else. Choosing a mattress based on the price per inch or price per pound of the raw materials would be similar to choosing between two suits of clothing that used similar materials based on their cost per pound of material rather than on how well they fit, how they look, how they feel when you wear them, and if you hadn’t tried them out in person what your options are if they don’t fit as well as you hoped (much of which would be subjective and based on preference).
You can’t really compare the density of polyfoam and memory foam because they are made in different density ranges. 4 lb memory foam is a medium quality/density material that would be fine for most people of average weight but I would be cautious using it in thicker layers with higher weights. 2 lb polyfoam on the other hand is a high quality/density material that I would be comfortable using with higher weights. Having said that … polyfoam is a lower cost material than either memory foam or latex and it has a different “feel” than either. Only 3" of the Casper mattress is specialty foam and the remaining 7" is also polyfoam (1.8 lb density). Which one is “better” would depend entirely on your individual preferences and which one of your finalists was a better match for you in terms of PPP and the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.
The return policy is good but it’s not as long as Tuft & Needle (at least for the members of the forum) or some of the other better online manufacturers or retailers that are included in the lists that are linked in the tutorial post (some of which are 120 days) but in almost all cases a purchaser would know whether a mattress was a suitable choice in terms of PPP within the first 30 days.
It’s always important to make sure you are making apples to apples comparisons and not to pay too much attention to marketing information.
Phoenix
Just FYI for people here but the bottom 7" polyfoam is 1.5lbs density which seems also just borderline acceptable. I’m a heavyset guy so it seems like this entire thing is not for heavy people like me? I’ll probably try it out for the PPP
Hi froendarkness,
Thanks for posting the density of their polyfoam base layer.
I agree that if you are in higher weight ranges with a 3" comfort layer that you could sink into the mattress more deeply and the density/quality of the baser layer would be more important and it may be a good idea to look at higher quality/density base layers.
You may decide to try it anyway but even if it’s a good match for you in terms of PPP then the durability of the mattress could still become an issue after your trial period was over and if it was a good match for you and decided to return it anyway it wouldn’t be particularly helpful with your next choice unless the combination of materials in the comfort layers were the same.
Phoenix
Wow… thanks for all the information.
The more I look into this product, the less interested I am in it. Of course, that still leaves me dumbfounded as to what mattress I will buy… but at least I think I’ve eliminated Casper. Tuft & Needle is still on my list, along with a few others. I also like the idea of a natural latex mattress, but those are above my price range.
Just to add more to the topic, I actually got one of the founders through e-mail who told me that the actual densities are:
Latex 3.3
Memory 4.0
Poly 1.8
I feel like they had to do some creative mathematics or the cloth wrap is actually fairly thick. Anyhow 1.8lbs of Poly seems like it’s better.
Hi frozendarkness,
Thanks for the updated specs.
The density of the synthetic latex isn’t important (density is a comfort spec with latex that varies with ILD) but the 1.8 lb polyfoam is a little higher quality for the base foam which could make some difference with higher weights that will compress the base layers more deeply.
Phoenix
Hey guys,
I’m a co-founder here at Casper - although a somewhat less technical one - and just found this thread.
The concentration of domain knowledge on the forum is beyond anything we’ve seen - we’d be happy to answer any questions on Casper in the more technical manner that the community here deserves…
The points in this thread regarding our less-technical speak on the website are totally valid - we debated every line of copy on the site in terms of the delta between technical specificity and simplicity (I’m typically the guilty party when it comes to forcing simplicity).
If you have technical questions that go above my head, I’ll bring Jeff, our head of product, into the loop (he’s going to set up an account tonight).
Best,
Luke
[email protected]
cell: 347 857-9746
Hi tlukesherwin,
Thanks for taking the time to register and for your comments … I appreciate it.
Like you … I’m a big fan of keeping things simple (in spite of the large amount of more technical information on the site and the forum) because too much technical information can quickly become overwhelming for most consumers and quickly lead to “paralysis by analysis”.
Having said that … I believe that too little information can also lead to some very poor choices as well and the one more “technical” aspect of a mattress purchase that is an important part of the “value” of a mattress is the quality/durability of the materials inside it so I do strongly suggest to the members here that in addition to their confidence that a mattress is a good match for them in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) that they make sure they know the density of any polyfoam or memory foam in a mattress or the type and blend of any latex so they can make sure there are no “weak links” in the mattress and make more meaningful comparisons to other mattresses.
When you are choosing a mattress online then of course you can’t test it first in person to make sure that the mattress is suitable for you in terms of PPP and no mattress is a good match for everyone so the knowledge and experience of a manufacturer or reseller and their ability to help their customers make a suitable choice for their body type, sleeping positions, and preferences is the most important part of the “value” of a mattress purchase. As you probably know … this is as much an “art” as it is a science and is the most challenging part of buying a mattress online. Of course … the return or exchange policy also becomes much more important in an online purchase if in spite of the “best efforts” of the customer and the retailer/manufacturer the mattress turns out to be a “less than ideal” choice. To your credit … you do have a good 40 day return policy that reduces the risk of an online purchase.
After suitability … the most important part of a mattress purchase would be knowing the “quality specs” of the materials and components inside it so that you can assess the durability of the mattress and make more meaningful comparisons with other mattresses. This is where the transparency of a retailer/manufacturer becomes very important. Your website makes it clear that the top latex layer is synthetic continuous pour Dunlop made by Mountaintop Foam and that the transition layer under that is 4 lb density memory foam but there was some question earlier in the thread about the density of the polyfoam base layer in your mattress so it would be great if you could confirm the density of the polyfoam since with thinner comfort layers the polyfoam base layer will also play a role in the durability and useful life of a mattress.
I also enjoyed our conversation today and with Philip as well … and thanks again for taking the time to post on the forum.
Phoenix
Really happy to be a part of it.
I’ve forwarded this to the team and I think there are some great points on transparency on the durability side.
I think for us, we try and cover the concept PPP by having a simple, hassle-free, returns policy that actually has no bs in it. To be honest, it is a simple philosophy for us - if we can make a bed that 90% love, 5% like, and the other 5% return, then the economic value of focusing all of our R&D energy on perfecting a single construction is high. If we don’t align with the PPP of someone, then we have an easy and convenient policy of an instant refund prior to your Casper ever being picked up.
Because we don’t have other firmnesses or products, we have no incentive to try and sell someone on another product. The only benefit we can capture from that customer is them saying “Oh I had an awesome experience with Casper - didn’t like the bed but loved how they treated me”… At least I hope that that is what people think.
Your point on durability is certainly valid and our discussion on the phone of the illusion of warranties even more interesting. We don’t really promote our warranty - not because it isn’t good (you can read it in our support section - it’s 10 years, 1 inch deflection) but more because it just seems to be an additional meaningless measurement that would place us in the industry’s hierarchy. It’s contributes to the sensation you get when you look at Amazon listings where the same 3 themes of foam density, warranty length and bed height become the mattress world’s rough equivalent of measuring masculinity.
Thanks again for the call, Phoenix.
Can you tell me why you eliminated Casper, Adrian?
I popped by Casper’s ‘showroom’ in NoHo, NYC (the showroom is a bedroom set up in the back of their office) to try out the bed. I only tried it for around 10mins, but it really was very comfortable and Michael @ Casper was very helpful. For my personal preference it had a perfect balance between firm and forgiving, and was noticeably supportive of my back (an issue with our current mattress). Also, the visit introduced me to the benefits of a latex layer for heat control, which i’m looking into now. Because of the latex, I think Tuft&Needle is off my list, and the current contenders would be Casper and Dreamfoam Bedding (dreamfoam bedding is cheaper, but at least with the Casper I know I have personally tried and liked the mattress).
Hi Brown,
Thanks for the feedback about Casper … I appreciate it 
You have some good options to choose from and I’m looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding.
Phoenix
I couldn’t help but notice that Casper hasn’t made it into the “The Mattress Underground membership list”. Any reason for that?
Hi basily,
There is no specific reason no and I wouldn’t read any particular meaning into a manufacturer that isn’t a member of the site.
Membership here is more of an organic process that happens as I get to know some manufacturers better (and of course they get to know me as well) and with newer manufacturers it’s less likely that they would be invited to become members until they have a little longer track record and I come to know them a little better.
There is more about site membership in this article and in post #2 here.
Phoenix
This is an interesting thread. Any of you go ahead and pick up the Casper?
I too am trying to decide between the Tuft and Needle - Ten and the Casper.
Any sales input to make Luke?! / tlukesherwin
Hi Wrench,
The Tuft & Needle uses multiple layers of polyfoam in both the comfort layers and the support core and the Casper uses a combination of two 1.5" layers of 4 lb memory foam and synthetic latex in their comfort layers over a polyfoam support core so it may come down to which type and combination of materials you would prefer to sleep on. There are also many other options available to you that use either latex or memory foam in the comfort layers that are also in lower budget ranges yet which may also be of interest to you depending on the type of materials you tend to prefer.
Some of the lower budget latex and latex hybrid mattresses that may also be worth considering are listed in post #3 and #4 here and there are also other lower budget polyfoam, memory foam, and innerspring mattresses listed in post #4 here.
There is more about the most important parts of the value of a mattress purchase in post #13 here which may also be useful to help you compare which mattress would be best for you but it boils down to how well you are likely to sleep on each mattress, how long you are likely to sleep well, and then the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including of course the price and the importance of any return or exchange options you have after a purchase just in case you need them).
Phoenix