Wow … whoever wrote that comparison is either trying to be purposely misleading or they don’t know very much about mattresses in general or the specific mattresses they are comparing. They are trying to make an “apples to oranges” comparison between two mattresses that are very different and they are also providing some very inaccurate information about mattresses in general and about the materials and the relative “value” of each mattress in particular. They are more caught up in the hype than in the substance of each mattress.
Their description of the materials in each mattress is incorrect. Tuft & Needle isn’t a latex hybrid for example and doesn’t have any latex or memory foam either and the Casper uses thin layers of medium density memory foam and synthetic latex in the comfort layers … not high density memory foam … and neither one has a memory foam “core” which no manufacturer would use in a mattress because memory foam isn’t a suitable material for a support core. Their comments about “unheard of” trial periods are also incorrect (there are many manufacturers that have similar or longer trial periods than either of them), and their comments about “quality” don’t include accurate information about the materials in each mattress and in terms of quality/durability, a mattress is only as good as the quality of the materials inside it.
I would also be aware that both of them are what are called “cut and sew” mattresses that are made by another company and neither one has their own factory. In other words they are both mattress resellers and neither one is truly “factory direct” and they both have more “middle men” than an actual factory direct manufacturer with their own mattress factory.
There is also a significant price difference between them and for those who want a softer comfort layer the price difference between a queen Tuft & Needle and a queen Casper is about $350 which is more than enough to buy a softer 3" topper for the Tuft & Needle that uses the same or higher quality materials than either the 1.5" of 4 lb memory foam or the 1.5" of synthetic latex in the Casper. This would also have the advantage of being able to replace the topper without having to replace the entire mattress because the comfort layers of a mattress are generally the weakest link in terms of durability and the useful life of a mattress.
It’s not often that I see a comparison between two mattresses that is that misleading or inaccurate.
Hey guys, chiming in here - I’m a co-founder at Casper.
Steven - I’m not sure of that website but thanks for bringing it to our attention. As Phoenix says, it is certainly inaccurate.
Phoenix - Thanks again for guiding the conversation, I apologize for not being more active. I frequently check the thread and this is truly an amazing resource for informing a purchase design.
A couple clarifications:
On your cut and sew point, the Casper is our own design from our own engineering lab in Providence. For factories, We actually use two different manufacturers for the foams in our mattress (although final assembly and combining of these is in Atlanta) and 3 different manufacturers for textiles (also finally assembled in Atlanta). From a consumer standpoint, and “middlemen” standpoint, the experience of this business model to end consumer is far more economic than the one with a retail middleman, simply because contractor margins are deeper in the chain than retail ones. Moreover, the big guys who use multiple foam types are also employing contract manufacturing at scale.
To the buy-plain-poly-mattress-and-integrate-two-seperate-toppers on top to save money, I’m not sure I agree that this provides the same human experience. For one, you’re talking about many layers of textiles between foam layers ~10 (causing sliding between layers as pressure is applied, and a different temperature profile across the bed(multiple FR covers etc). Achieving a similar experience as a Casper by buying commodity parts, FR covers etc. would not be a proposition I would buy into.
Re quality, are you using density as your benchmark? or dunlop versus talalay?
If either of those, we have very specific engineering reasons, rather than cost based ones for those decisions. Philosophically for us, it is more about how the two layers work with each other than it is the absolute densities or ILDS of each layers. Happy to have someone more qualified than me elaborate if need be.
I completely agree that a cut and sew supply chain is generally more economical and cost effective than the supply chain that “feeds” a typical retail store although this may not be true in all cases because it depends on the specific retailer and manufacturer. For example a retail store that buys their mattresses from a local manufacturer that is close to them that in turn buys their materials directly from the foam or component manufacturers would have a similar supply chain to yours. This site also has a different frame of reference than most of the rest of the industry which is dominated by the major manufacturers (see here) because so many of the options that are mentioned here are actual mattress manufacturers that own their own factory and equipment and sell direct to consumers which would usually be a more direct and economical supply chain yet (again depending on whether they order their materials directly from a foam pourer or the manufacturer of their components or if they order from a foam fabricator or supplier). The reference points for comparison here are the “best of the industry” and aren’t the “big guys” at all which are generally considered “poor quality/value” and “avoid” options on this site.
You’re certainly right that it wouldn’t provide the “same” experience because the designs and materials would be different (see post #9 here about the different ways that one mattress can “match” or “approximate” another one). I certainly wasn’t implying that adding a topper to a Tuft & Needle mattress would be the same mattress as the Casper … because it wouldn’t. Because of the many variables involved and the somewhat subjective nature of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) if you were to use a “target” of a theoretical ideal in terms of PPP then a mattress/topper combination could be closer or further away from their ideal depending on the specifics of each one. Any extra layers of textile between foam layers would certainly have some effect on the feel and performance of the mattress but once again the specific effect would depend on the specifics of all the materials in the “sleeping system” and how they interact together and with the body type and sleeping positions of each person. In some cases the effect of having a separate topper can be beneficial because of the independence of movement and response you are referring to (somewhat like a pillowtop that can respond more independently than the same layer inside a mattress). There is more about this in posts #3 and #4 here and in this topic. As you mentioned … each layer of the mattress would also affect the temperature profile for better or for worse depending again on the specifics (see post #2 here for more about the many variables that can affect temperature regulation).
There are many “benchmarks” for quality depending on whether you are talking about durability or about specific aspects of performance. In most cases … quality in the context that I use it most often on this site would refer to density/durability in the case of memory foam or polyfoam. In the case of latex it’s somewhat different because all latex is a durable material relative to other types of foam so in the context I used it in this post it would refer more to the cost of the latex which generally depends on the manufacturing process (Talalay is more costly than Dunlop) and on the percentage of natural or synthetic rubber used in the latex (natural is more costly than synthetic). Having said that … in the case of latex … more costly doesn’t necessarily mean more durable or “better” because even synthetic latex is a very durable material although it has different properties from say the 100% natural continuous pour Dunlop which is also made by Mountaintop which would be denser and would have a higher compression modulus and more of the other properties of natural rubber vs synthetic rubber (such as resilience) … and of course would be more costly as well.
The point I was trying to make in this case was relative to the article I was commenting on which used “quality” very loosely and with no specific meaning. I completely agree with you for example that a lower density and less durable memory foam or a lower cost version of latex with certain specific properties may be a better choice in a specific mattress or for specific people to achieve a certain price point or a specific “feel” or design goal than a higher density memory foam or a version of latex with a higher natural rubber content that may have less desirable properties for a specific application or may put the mattress outside of the price point that is the target. As you mentioned all the layers and components of a mattress interact with every other layer and these are just part of the many tradeoffs that are involved in every mattress design. You can see what I would consider to be the most important parts of the “value” or “success” of a mattress purchase in post #13 here and suitability in terms of PPP (how well you sleep on a mattress) is always first … followed by durability (how long you will sleep well) … followed by how the mattress compares to others based on all the other parts of each person’s personal value equation that are important to them.
The comparison link stephaietib gives (sleepopolis…) has a lot of incorrect information about the T&N mattress which is 3 layers of polyfoam. I think the link is there to direct to $50 discount links not for accurate information.
I was so incensed when I read #24 I hadn’t read your #25 when I replied. Agree with everything you said.
I am still undecided between T&N or Casper. Realize I can return either if not satisfactory but not sure which to try first. I am leaning toward trying T&N first because it is less expensive and has a shorter test period. I am currently sleeping on a very high qualtiy cotton futon on a high quality slat platform with a memory foam topper. Not sure if it is considered firm or soft. No sleep problems but would like more height. If my comfort with any new mattress is not as good as or better than my current sleep, I won’t keep the new mattress.
Your site, both your comments and others, are very helpful. Thanks very much.
I read about this brand in the Times. Thanks to Phoenix and to all who contributed the additional information. This site is a gold mine and I’m so glad I found it before making my purchase. I’ve decided to get another type of mattress, but Casper’s model is intriguing and I’ll be following its progress in the marketplace.
[quote]The comparison link stephaietib gives (sleepopolis…) has a lot of incorrect information about the T&N mattress which is 3 layers of polyfoam. I think the link is there to direct to $50 discount links not for accurate information.
I was so incensed when I read #24 I hadn’t read your #25 when I replied. Agree with everything you said.[/quote]
While I’m normally very hesitant to do so … on further thought I just decided to delete the link because there were too many inaccuracies and misinformation in the content.
Good luck in your final decision (see post #2 here) and I’m looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding :).
Of course “in theory” you could also purchase both of them and keep the one that was the best “match” for you based on your actual sleeping experience and the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.
At this point, the mattress I want to try first will be the coolest but I’m having a hard time with that.
After pushing the T&N customer service reps yesterday, I finally got a definitive description of the new cover they are using (and they updated the website after my inquiry). Until recently it was cotton. I was emailed “In follow up, our cover is a 50/50 blend of rayon and polyester, with the surface fabric being 95% rayon. We’ve also updated our specs page to reflect that: https://www.tuftandneedle.com/mattress/specs.”
I have not yet gotten equivalent detailed information from Casper regarding the fabric content of their cover.
It seems the latex top of the Casper should be cooler than the polyfoam from T&N but I think a “hot” cover (mostly polyester) would negate the latex advantage. Haven’t heard back yet after emailing the Casper co-founder who left his contact info on your site. Casper so far has told me the cover fabric is “a poly blend”. Also, the trial period for Casper is now 100 days. Seems they are going head-to-head with Tuft & Needle. NYT wrote up Casper this past Thursday so their volume is probably up, for inquiries at least.
Unfortunately there is no way to know for certain whether one mattress will sleep warmer than another one relative to a specific person because there are too many variables involved that can affect sleeping temperature and there is no specific testing protocol that compares mattresses as a whole so your own personal experience is really the only way to know whether a mattress will be “temperature regulating enough” for you.
Having said that … post #2 here and the posts it links to has more information about all the variables that can affect temperature regulation (including the type of mattress protector and the sheets and bedding you use) that may be helpful.
There is also more information in post #7 here and post #11 here that compares the pros and cons of cotton to rayon and other viscose type of materials that may also be helpful.
I don’t think that either one of them would “sleep hot” for most people but only your own personal experience can tell you if you are the exception (which is part of the value of their trial period).
A follow-up. I bought the Tuft and Needle mattress and it arrived yesterday. Box was rather heavy and I had to drag it from the front door to the bedroom. Then getting it out of its heavy plastic wrapping was tricky without damaging the mattress cover or the zipper, but I managed it. Then I had to drag my rolled futon across the house to a closet. My lower back was really hurting (micro-tears in the muscle no doubt) so I was thinking it would take awhile to know if the T&N mattress would offer a good night’s sleep.
The mattress is on an excellent quality slat platform oak bed I had made in 1980. The mattress unrolled immediately once I got the shipping plastic cut away. The cover had no wrinkles and the mattress had no outgassing. I put on a new mattress pad (cotton top, poly padding, nothing fancy).
Good news is that I slept great last night. The better news is that when I woke up, several normal aches were GONE. I had to take more ibuprofen to deal with the micro-tears, but my back had absolutely no stiffness, nor did my knees, hips, or elbows. It was a very refreshing and rejuvenating sleep. Even my dog slept all night.
I ordered the mattress on Thursday and they shipped it FedEx from CA. It arrived Saturday morning. It has the new rayon/polyester cover and looked flawless. I’m thus far very very happy I made this purchase. I have 30 days to return it if I want to. I decided to try the T&N before trying a Casper because other people implied it was more firm than the Casper. Well, it is firm but not “hard” firm. Just very good support kind of firm. I didn’t want to be sinking in much, but I can feel the mattress supporting pressure points, like knees, ankles, hips just enough. I start sleeping on my side and end up on my stomach. Had no trouble being comfortable as soon as the lights were out.
Update on my Tuft and Needle mattress. After 3 or 4 nights, I started waking up at 4AM with screaming pain in both kneecaps. I start out sleeping on my side and at some point end up on my stomach curled around a second pillow. I put up with this until last Sunday (11 nights) when I couldn’t take it any more and ordered what should be a less firm Casper mattress which arrives today, thank goodness. At 4AM this morning the pain in my kneecaps was severe. I had to get up and take ibuprofen and try to get back to sleep on my back. I’ve been awake for 5 hours and my kneecaps still feel a burn in them.
Tuft and Needle is fine with the return. I have called the Salvation Army to pick up the mattress tomorrow. Once I give T&N a photo of the receipt they will refund my purchase price.
I must add that the quality of the mattress is first-rate as was delivery and any customer service interactions with the company. My kneecaps just cannot tolerate the degree of firmness in the mattress. I had no other issues with it – back, neck, hands, feet, etc. were all perfectly comfortable but the severe knee pain was a deal breaker.
I just want to add that I have never had this knee pain from sleeping on any surface before. It was a surprise problem.
I switched your last two posts to a different topic because they were about a different mattress than the topic they were originally posted in.
I also appreciate your update and feedback and it’s great to see that you had the foresight to order an “all or nothing” mattress that had a great return policy.
I’m looking forward to your feedback about the Casper as well which is also an “all or nothing” choice and like the Tuft & Needle, will be the “best” choice for a relatively small percentage of the population, a “good choice” for a slightly larger percentage, an “OK” choice for a larger percentage yet and for those that it’s not a “good enough” choice they also have a great return policy so there is little risk in trying it.
We decided to try the Casper mattress over the Tuft and Needle due to people saying the Tuft was very firm. I did not feel that we would like the firm mattress. Even with a topper, I would rather have the right thing from the beginning. The Casper was $200 more (we used a $50 promo code).
We are in love!
The mattress is thinner than we are used to, but it gives just the right amount of support. I feel like we are sleeping in a deluxe hotel. This feels like a much more expensive bed.
For a free 100 day trial, it is worth trying out. There is no risk involved. Something that I really liked is that if we had decided to send it back, we would not be sending it to their warehouse. Instead, they contact a charity local to us and have them pick it up. My loss is a charities gain. I LOVE that.
As far as quality goes, there is a 10 year warranty. We have 3 kids and I like to sleep so our bed gets lots of use. No mattress we have ever owned (and we always got the really good ones) has lasted more than 10 years. By that point, we feel like we are each sleeping in a taco. I see this bed lasting just as long. A weekend at a nice hotel can cost almost as much, if not more, than this mattress, so I feel years of getting that kind of sleep at home is worth it.
You may not have been aware of this but Tuft & Needle changed the design of their mattresses and for the sake of others that may be reading this there are more details about the new design in posts #2 and #6 here.
Your comments have more of the “tone” of an ad for Casper and are somewhat exaggerated and on the “promotional” side and it’s not the norm that someone’s first post here is an “excited” review that is “gushing” about the wonders of their new mattress instead of questions that are part of their research. I also removed the specific promotional parts of your post which are against the rules of the forum.
Having said that … I’m glad that you are happy with your purchase and that it meets all the criteria that are important to you … and congratulations on your new mattress
We really appreciate your mattress forum. We sent 2 expensive hybrid coil and foam mattresses back to Macys after they did not work well with our new adjustable bases. They also were not comfortable. We got the Casper mattress, (what did we have to lose with the 100 day guarantee?)
It was a little bit firm for us so we phoned Casper and they sent us out a FREE gel topper from Amazon with 2 day delivery. We are now in love with our Casper mattress.
Thanks for sharing your feedback about your Casper mattress.
I’m glad to see that things worked out well for you.
Just out of curiosity … are they asking you to post feedback here? I’m asking because both you and the previous poster’s registration and first post was after your purchase which is somewhat unusual on this forum (most of the members register and post with questions first before they end up purchasing a mattress) and are using language and capitalization and wording which seems more “promotional” than the norm.
Phoenix, No, they did not ask me to post here or anywhere.
The reason I had not posted before was that there was so much great information on this site that all of my questions were answered by reading thru everything already here.
Who knew that buying a mattress was so difficult. I did not know until I got the first mattress delivered from Macys and realized how little I knew. What I learned was to NOT trust the sales people at the mattress store. At least that was my lesson.
The reason I decided to post my outcome, was to help others who are searching for answers.
Your site helped me so much I decided to give back by sharing my experience.
I would have done this regardless of which mattress I ended up happy with.
Thanks so much for having this site. It is a great service.
I like to keep an eye on things so that the site doesn’t end up becoming a “promotional tool” for some of the “one size fits all” mattresses and to help make sure that the members here are making meaningful comparisons with other mattresses that are available to them in similar budget ranges that use similar or even higher quality materials rather than making their choices based more on “marketing information” which can often be somewhat misleading (see post #2 here).
If you looked at more than one option in this price range and made some good “value” comparisons between Casper and some of the other mattresses that are available to you based on the guidelines here and it was the best “match” for all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you then you made a good choice … and congratulations on your new mattress … and topper
All new mattresses will have some initial smell (and some people will be more sensitive to different smells from different types of foam than others) but it will normally dissipate to levels that most people wouldn’t notice in a few days. The materials are CertiPUR certified so they have been tested for harmful substances and VOC’s and for most people it wouldn’t be a issue. If for some reason you are more sensitive to the smell than others then you can let it air out for a few days first after it’s unwrapped and decompressed but for most people it would be fine to sleep on after a few hours.
