"Clinical assessment of sleep profile"?

Hi LenF,

I spent some time on the site and it looks legitimate to me … at least in theory. Most of what I read would certainly agree with my own thoughts and most of the research about sleeping ergonomics around the world about the importance of support/alignment and pressure relief in all your sleeping positions as the two most important functions of a mattress and the most important parts of a successful mattress choice.

The most important part of sleep quality is spinal alignment and while assessing spinal alignment in a lateral sleep position is relatively simple because the spine can be measured relatively easily … with the current state of the art it’s much more difficult to accurately assess spinal alignment in a prone or supine position or the many “in between” positions without some relatively expensive individual 3D modeling and test equipment that is used over the course of the night (see chapter 4 in this study). They say they are using a laser sensor to measure spinal alignment which would probably be fairly accurate with side sleeping but I would question how accurate it would be for the other sleeping positions.

In terms of pressure relief … pressure mapping can certainly be an effective way to assess pressure points along the body surface but once again it would be important to make sure that pressure was measured in the range of sleeping positions that you would be sleeping in over the course of the night.

Overall … it would probably be accurate to say that the type of testing they are doing along with their professional experience and assessment would very likely increase your odds of success that a mattress would be a good “match” for you in terms of “comfort”, firmness, and PPP (particularly if it is zoned to fit your body profile) but it wouldn’t be a guarantee of success because of the many variables involved that may not be possible to assess with the type of equipment they are using.

There is also more about the 3 most important parts of “value” of a mattress purchase in post #13 here which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on suitability, durability, and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase if your choice doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for).

They also don’t mention the specifics of the materials and components they are using in their mattresses and outside of PPP … the most important part of the value of a mattress purchase is durability which is all about how long you will sleep well on a mattress. This is the part of your research that you can’t see or “feel” and assessing the quality/durability and useful life of a mattress depends on knowing the specifics of its construction and the type and quality of the materials inside it regardless of the name of the manufacturer on the label (or how a mattress feels in a showroom or when it is relatively new) so I would also make sure that you find out information listed here so you can compare the materials and components to the quality/durability guidelines here to make sure there are no lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress that would be a cause for concern relative to the durability and useful life of a mattress before making any purchase.

In terms of other options that may be available to you … I don’t have any particular knowledge about the Australian market so I won’t be able to help much in terms of specific retailers or manufacturers I’m aware of there but the steps involved in choosing a mattress and the mattress materials that are used in Australia would generally be the same as in North America. I would also read post #2 here (except replace “Israel” with “Australia”).

Post #2 here also includes links to most of the forum topics from Australia and post #7 here includes a list of many Australian manufacturers and retailers and a few comments about some of them as well that will hopefully be helpful as well.

Phoenix

Thanks Phoenix.

I did note that they don’t list their material specs (or even their prices), but now that I know they’re not actually talking nonsense I can phone them up and find out details etc… Thanks again, I appreciate it :slight_smile:

Hi! LenF,
Actually thousands of mattress are available in the market but which will be preferable for you that’s the fact. I faced amnesia for few days and then fall in problem with sound sleet. Bought 3 mattress and leave all of them within few days because they were not preferable for me. Searched n google for a week and found a site where instructions are available like: How t buy mattress/ Types of mattress/ Mattress care etc.
Following most instructions bought one and now feeling comfort… If you want you also can follow all requirements. . If you want then you also can visit numattress.com where I visited. If you follow these requirement then must you’ll be able to choose the right one which is needed for you.

Hm. They didn’t tell me the materials they use.

I emailed:

They replied:

The prices seem pretty reasonable, but I’m pretty hesitant since they wouldn’t give me specifics about the materials. Still, given that these guys specifically make custom mattresses, I could go them, do the assessment and then request the specifications to review before they make it and I pay them. Any thoughts?

Hi LenF,

That makes sense to me. I would want to know the density of any memory foam or polyfoam (density is the single biggest factor in durability with both). Any type of latex would be a durable material but I would want to know the type and blend of the latex to make more meaningful comparisons with other mattresses. You don’t need to know the density of any latex in the mattress.

Phoenix

I am not this is the right place to put this or not. I ran into an article on Inc, magazine about what is fueling the eCommerce of mattress. This is all new, but the companies are seeking feed back

This is might be of little help to you in Australia, but it does show that in the growing competitive sector, at least some companies are trying to do assessments of sleep profiles.

Hi Jimmie,

I don’t think that an online questionnaire would qualify as a “clinical assessment” although most of the better online companies that have multiple choices available do their best to ask enough questions or provide some guidelines to improve the odds of their customers making a suitable choice.

Phoenix

Oh no :frowning:

It turns out after a bit more digging (actually, just looking up where they are on Google), they’re run by the “centre for muscoskeletal medicine”, which is people with no medical qualifications practicing accupuncture and other quackery.

What a disappointment.

Hi LenF,

I understand that an Osteopath in Australia would be similar to a Chiropractor in the US and I would think that they would both have extensive knowledge about spinal alignment regardless of whether they are an actual medical doctor.

While I certainly don’t know how effective their assessment process may be or the quality or value of their mattresses … I probably wouldn’t rule them out for lack of a medical degree. I don’t think it would take a doctor to do the type of clinical assessment that can help you choose a mattress and even a knowledgeable and experienced mattress salesperson with some knowledge about spinal alignment can shift the odds of choosing a suitable mattress in your favor.

Phoenix

We have chiropractors as well, and unfortunately they’re quacks too. In actual fact, they are no more qualified to discuss spinal health than I am.

Hi LenF,

Perhaps Chiropractors in Australia aren’t as well educated or knowledgeable as they are in North America but I’ve personally been helped a great deal with several back issues or injuries over the years by some very good Chiropractors and I know many others that have been helped a great deal and think highly of their Chiropractors as well.

Phoenix

Well, without getting into a (very probably destructive) argument about alternative medicine, the bottom line is I personally disagree with it and so am not going to support this particular business because they participate in it… If you want to discuss if further I’m happy to, but from experience that type of difference of opinion tends towards some pretty acrimonious discussions, so I’m happy to just drop it.

In the meantime, I did spot https://www.melbournemattressfactory.com.au/ who list all the specs of their mattresses, seem entirely focused on the business of making mattresses, and also have much lower prices. In a way, I’m reassured by the crappy quality of the website too, because it seems to me that they’re too concerned with the business of making and selling quality mattresses to be bothered with improving their website :slight_smile:

So for me I think the plan now is, because they’re so far away from me, to try out a bunch in a local (chain brand) show room, see what works best, get the specs of whatever that is, then buy somewthing with the same or very similar specs from this other crowd.

Hi LenF,

It would certainly be outside the scope of a mattress forum :slight_smile:

As you mentioned each person can have very different opinions or levels of knowledge about a very complex topic but if for any reason you aren’t comfortable with a particular business then of course it wouldn’t make sense to purchase from them.

I hadn’t seen them before and they don’t list any specific information about their mattresses on their website but hopefully they will provide the information you need when you talk with them. Thanks for the heads up and I’ve added them to the Australian list here.

It’s unlikely that you will be able to find out all the specs you would need to be able to “duplicate” or “approximate” a major brand mattress (see post #2 here)

When you can’t test a mattress in person then the most reliable source of guidance is always a more detailed phone conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer that has your best interests at heart and who can help “talk you through” the specifics of their mattresses and the properties and “feel” of the materials they are using (fast or slow response, resilience, firmness etc) and the options they have available that may be the best “match” for you based on the information you provide them, any local testing you have done or mattresses you have slept on and liked or other mattresses you are considering that they are familiar with, and the “averages” of other customers that are similar to you. They will know more about “matching” their specific mattress designs and firmness levels to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences (or to other mattresses that they are familiar with) than anyone else.

Since the only way to know for certain or confirm whether any mattress will be a good “match” for you in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP or how it will compare to another mattress will be based on your own personal experience … if you aren’t confident that an online mattress will be a good match for you then the options you have available after a purchase to exchange or customize the mattress (by rearranging or exchanging layers) and any costs involved or return the mattress for a refund would become a much more important part of the “value” of an online mattress purchase so you can try out the mattress in your bedroom instead of a showroom with the only risk being the cost of returning a mattress if in the worst case, and in spite of the “best efforts” of everyone involved (both you and the retailer you are buying from), the mattress doesn’t turn out to be as suitable a choice as you hoped for.

Phoenix

Thanks for the great advice. That all makes sense :slight_smile:

Over the weekend, I went out to a bed shop with a helper and tried out mattresses. It was a chain called Snooze. They have a “bed match” system that you lie on that suggests the firmess of support core required. I think the machine got it spot on - it recommended Snooze’s “green” category, which is on the softer end, and the corresponding mattresses I tried out felt so good I nearly passed out on them. By contrast, the ones next highest up the firmness scale did not feel good. On the softer ones, my spine felt straight and relaxed (and my helper confirmed it), and on the firmer ones my back felt uncomfortable and unaligned (and my helper said it looked weird).

So. The mattress the salesperson eventually settled on recommending is a Madison Waldorf… It felt absolutely heavenly. More expensive than I had in mind, but still feasible.

However, on getting home and checking the reviews, and finding these ones, I’m very concerned that some people have reported that their mattresses have deformed and won’t spring back like they used to. That sounds like a quality issue to me and a major red flag. Would I be right in totally avoiding this mattress, and going back to the drawing board?

I must admit, I didn’t end up trying out any basic, simple mattresses while I was in the shop. The stuff the salesperson said matched the stuff I’ve read on this site, so I trusted their judgement. If not for the potential quality issue, I’d be prepared to pay their asking price even if it is expensive, because the mattress felt excellent.

Hi LenF,

There is more about the bed match system in this topic and you can read a little more about pressure mapping systems in general post #2 here and post #4 here. While they can be helpful asx a very general guideline … I would be cautious about overemphasizing their importance compared to what your body tells you and using the testing guidelines in the tutorial because they can help more for pressure testing than spinal alignment (pressure relief is not the same as spinal alignment and a mattress that does a great job relieving pressure is not necessarily the best choice in terms of alignment). They also won’t tell you anything about the quality and durability of the materials inside the mattress.

While other people’s comments about the knowledge and service of a particular business can certainly be very helpful … I would always keep in mind that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and I would be cautious about about using anyone else’s suggestions, experiences or reviews on a specific mattress (either positive or negative) or review sites in general as a reliable source of information or guidance about how you will feel on the same mattress or how suitable or how durable a mattress may be for you. In many if not most cases they can be more misleading than helpful because a mattress that would be a perfect choice for one person or even a larger group of people in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP may be completely unsuitable for someone else to sleep on (even if they are in a similar weight range). In other words … reviews or other people’s experiences in general won’t tell you much if anything about the suitability, quality, durability, or “value” of a mattress for any particular person (see post #13 here).

There is also more about the 3 most important parts of “value” of a mattress purchase in post #13 here which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on suitability, durability, and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase if your choice doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for).

While again nobody can speak to how any specific mattress will “feel” for someone else or whether it will be a good “match” in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP because this is too subjective and relative to different body types, sleeping positions, and individual preferences, sensitivities, and circumstances and you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress … outside of PPP (which is the most important part of “value”), the next most important part of the value of a mattress purchase is durability which is all about how long you will sleep well on a mattress. This is the part of your research that you can’t see or “feel” and assessing the durability and useful life of a mattress depends on knowing the specifics of its construction and the type and quality of the materials inside it regardless of the name of the manufacturer on the label (or how a mattress feels in a showroom or when it is relatively new) so again I would always make sure that you find out information listed here so you can compare the materials and components to the quality/durability guidelines here to make sure there are no lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress that would be a cause for concern relative to the durability and useful life of a mattress before making any purchase.

In most cases I would tend to avoid the larger chain stores (see the guidelines here) and Snooze doesn’t include any meaningful information about the quality and durability of the materials in the Madison Waldorf mattress.

Once there is about 2" or more of lower quality/density and less durable materials or “unknown” materials in the upper layers of a mattress then the odds of premature foam softening and breakdown that can result in the loss of comfort and support and the need to replace the mattress much too soon would be much higher and foam softening and the loss of comfort and support isn’t covered by mattress warranties (see post #174 here).

If for any reason a retailer or manufacturer is either unwilling or unable to provide you with all the information you need about the materials and components inside a mattress you are considering to make sure there are weak links in a mattress and to make more meaningful comparisons with other mattresses I would avoid the mattress completely.

Phoenix

I’m not worried about the reviews saying the mattress was too hot or that they didn’t like the service they got. I’m worried about the two reviews saying their mattress fell apart after a few months.

I’ll email Snooze and ask what the components are. Might as well.

Part of my problem is that I can’t find any non-chain retailers to try mattresses at. The best I’ve been able to find is local manufacturers that don’t seem to have showrooms. At this stage I’m prepared to pay extra to get my mattress from a chain store provided I can tell that it’s going to last.

Hi LenF,

I would also be worried about any mattress that uses lower quality or “unknown” materials (unknown materials are usually lower quality/density as well) and I would avoid them.

You would typically be paying extra for lower quality and less durable materials. The only reliable way to be able to assess the quality and durability of a mattress is by making sure you know the specifics of the materials and components inside it.

Phoenix

Ok. Snooze got back to me.

The gent tells me they don’t actually have the full specs, but he did tell me the manufacturers of the springs and of the foam, Joyce for the foam, who are a local manufacturer apparently supplying both Madison and their competitors Sealy and AGRO in Germany for the springs. He spoke at length about how the springs are heat tempered and German made rather than electrically tempered and sourced from South-East Asia, and that this implies good quality.

He also said that it’s expected that the mattress would take a month or two to “wear in”, and that the floor item would already have been worn in, and that until “my body gets used to the mattress” it won’t be so comfortable. These statements seem contradictory to me - either the mattress is changing to suit my body, or my body is changing to suit the mattress; I was not clear on which one.

I couldn’t get thicknesses out of him, but I’ll try consult the manufacturer directly. I see Joyce make a great variety of foams, so that doesn’t tell me which one is in use…

Hi LenF,

Steel innersprings in general are a durable component so an innerspring isn’t normally the weakest link in a mattress. The durability and useful life of a mattress will depend much more on the types and quality/durability of the materials or components that are on top of the innerspring than the innerspring itself.

There will be a break in and adjustment period for any new mattress or sleeping system as the mattress loses any of it’s “false firmness” and the cover stretches and loosens a little and the materials settle and your body gets used to a sleeping surface that is different from what it is used to (see post #3 here). This would typically be a few weeks but it can be shorter or longer depending on the specifics of the person and the mattress (higher density materials like latex can take longer) and it can be surprising to many people how much their sleeping experience can change over the course of the first month or so (and on some occasions even longer).

A good retailer should be willing to phone their factory rep to see if they can find out this information for their customers and not make their customers do their job for them. Many mainstream mattress manufacturers don’t disclose this information at all but there are also some others where the factory rep will disclose it to one of their retailers even though the company itself won’t disclose it directly to consumers.

If for any reason they are either unwilling or unable to provide you with the information you need to make an informed choice I would avoid the mattress completely.

Phoenix

Thanks Phoenix. That all makes sense. Nice to know that, at least, this adjustment period business isn’t a sign of a bad mattress but is in fact normal.