Close to a Latex Bed Decision in LA... i Hope!

Phoenix,
I had to take a break from my quest. I had nixed the wonderful Henry at flexus because i thought the 3" 24ILD talalay/6" 31ILD dunlop was too soft and his options were limited. I decided against the diamond hybrid. I was set to buy an electropedic double sided 1 1/2" 24ILD on 6" 36ILD talalay on a scape adjustable. When i tried it again i thought it too soft and their 44ILD core too firm. I took a break.

I visited Scott at FoamSweetFoam today. I liked his 4 layer talalay med/med/firm/xtrafirm. It seemed like a winner and felt better to me than the 3 layer models. I will need a support frame of some kind in my beautiful cal king bed that has only 4 slats. Iā€™m not sure that i need an adjustable base.

Questions:
I know you said that 9" of latex is all most folks need but the 12" felt better. I think its supportive and good enough for pressure relief. I am 6ā€™2" 210lbs and she is 5ā€™2" 120lbs and we are side 80% back 20%. What do you think? Not concerned about the $$$.

The hollywood frame looks cheesy but will be mostly hidden in the bed. What do you think of it? I know you had mixed thoughts about it last May(thread with Supremo)

Can a 13" mattress go on an adjustable like the scape if i want that later?

What do you think of the FSF mattress vs electropedic 11" organic (9" latex with organic cotton cover without zipperā€¦ Do you like the idea of the zipper?

FSF has $200 off through monday. I canā€™t visit electropedic by then.

What do you think of the mattress pad/protector and pillows at FSF?

Thanks!

Hi DrRich,

Hereā€™s what I ā€œthinkā€ :slight_smile:

You have done some great research and testing and eliminated all the ā€œworstā€ choices (I donā€™t think you even considered any ā€œbadā€ choices)

Your body, some objective and subjective testing and the help of some very good local ā€œexpertsā€ has told you which mattresses are the best ā€œmatchā€ for you in terms of PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and Personal preferences)

Your own criteria is the best way to decide whether any extra cost of one mattress vs another along with the benefits and options that come with dealing with each retailer or manufacturer makes one a closer match to your own personal value equation.

At this stage only you can know which is best for you and any ā€œtheory at a distanceā€ would not be helpful. Once you have narrowed down your list to choices between ā€œgood and goodā€ which you have (and there are no warning signs in any of your choices) ā€¦ then its time for me to step out of the way and your own preferences and what is most important to you is the only way to make final decisions.

Some of the benefits of thicker layers or mattresses are in post #14 here. In most cases 8" to 9" is all most people ā€œneedā€. It may not be what some people prefer however or in some cases the design of a mattress that they prefer or that can accommodate weight differences or other challenges may make a thicker mattress more desirable. Everything is a matter of your needs and preferences in combination with the design that makes your needs and preferences possible.

Each manufacturer can tell you better if the specific materials and layers they are using can work well on an adjustable bed but in this case the answer would be yes. My own mattress has 11" of latex and conforms to my adjustable very well. Some mattresses that have over about 12" of latex may not conform quite as well but they would still be OK as well in most cases.

I like both of these and think they are both good quality and value. The differences between them are a matter of preference and the importance to you of being able to access and change the layers in your mattress. I think that zippers can certainly add flexibility or ā€œvalueā€ to a mattress design and allow for changing layers if one wears out faster of if your needs and preferences change in time but there is also value in a two sided mattress which can be flipped. once again itā€™s a matter of what is most important to each person and which features they ā€œvalueā€ the most. When you are down to all good choices ā€¦ I donā€™t tend to think in terms of better and worse any more but only in terms of differences in features, options, ad preferences which may have more or less value to each person.

I have no personal experience with them and I havenā€™t talked with FSF about them so I am really not the best person to ask this. I should probably be asking you since you have seen them :slight_smile:

Based on the online description though they seem very nice and based on my knowledge of FSF I doubt they would carry anything that they didnā€™t believe had good quality and value. It seems similar to the St Dormeir (which I like) or one of the wool/cotton Natura mattress protectors (which I own). Personally I like this style of protector.

Phoenix

Ok. Thatā€™s sage advice. I think I will go with FSF. I need to support that mattress in my beautiful bed. I can buy their Hollywood Wire Foundation to go into my bed frame. Some time ago you wrote with some ambivalence about it. FSF seems to think its fine. Does one put some cover over the wires? What do you think? Any alternative aside from an adjustable? I want the top of the 13" mattress to be about 26" above the floor and the lip within the bed frame is at 8".
Thanks,
Dr. Rich

Hi DrRich,

I am still somewhat ambivalent about them.

My ā€œgutā€ says that wires which have less supportive surface will tend to impress into the latex over time and this could be a durability factor over time. If you look at a wood slatted foundation the supportive surface for the mattress is about 50% or better. If you look at even the wire grid foundations that have the most wires ā€¦ the supportive surface is considerably less than 50%.

Because a mattress has a cover which will act to stop the latex from sinking into the gaps I donā€™t think that any issues with these would be immediately obvious in the first few years but I do believe it could have an effect in the longer term lifespan of the mattress.

I canā€™t ā€œproveā€ this but I have talked with manufacturers that have seen latex core mattress that have been used on some of the other wire grid foundations that have been out for longer such as these from Leggett & Platt and they have seen clear evidence that the wires were impressing into the latex over time.

I would tend to use a fabric cover of some kind or even just a tight fitting box spring cover or thin padding to go over it to help support the mattress in the gaps between the wires. Some of these have a thin cover and even this may make a difference. A layer of firm polyfoam or a rubberized coir ā€œbed rugā€ would be even 'safer" options.

This may be an overabundance of caution on my part or perhaps my risk tolerance is lower than others and this certainly doesnā€™t make me ā€œrightā€ and others ā€œwrongā€ but I personally wouldnā€™t take the chance with a beautiful and rather expensive latex mattress. At the very least I would choose the type with the most longitudinal wires in it and put some kind of tight cover or padding on top of it.

Phoenix

I agree. Not sure how come FSF sells only that with their nice beds. Iā€™m also at a loss for an alternative. I guess i could get my slats reinforced and buy a low profile box spring substitute from another place or go with an adjustable. Did you try to get the adjustable to match the mattress cover you already had?

Hi DrRich,

There are some good and inexpensive alternatives in the foundation thread here. I would particularly consider the mattresses.net and the SleepEz choices that are listed under the ā€œKD foundationā€ section of the post, both of which use wooden slats that are less than 3" apart and would be perfectly suitable and can be shipped UPS.

No ā€¦ we were quite happy with the look of the sides of the Reverie (which is white) but my other half does like to use a bedskirt which hangs to the floor to reduce dust under the bed and this also covers the side of the adjustable bed and you also donā€™t see the legs. A bedskirt can be chosen to ā€œmatchā€ the mattress but since the mattress is covered almost all the time with sheets and bedding anyway this wasnā€™t an issue for us.

Phoenix

phoenix,
what do you think of the metal frame with slats from usboxspring.com? i could put legs on it and with a 13"mattress it would be just a touch low at 25". The alternative is getting my four bed wood slats fitted with legs and putting a low profile foundation on it. seems like alot of work when i donā€™t go with someone who will make one for me to sell me the mattress, huh?
Dr. Rich

Hi Dr.Rich,

They are one of the recommended foundations listed in the foundation thread and have the necessary spacing to work well for an all latex mattress. You can see my thoughts about them in post #15 here.

You could also use longer legs such as these if you wanted to raise it a bit.

Phoenix

You know, i dont think i can make my four 1X3" slats any better than they are with all my books supporting them. Do you think i can put the 12" latex mattress on my 6 yr old box springs and see how it goes? I put in the order to FSF and now iā€™m getting worried about creating a project here.

Hi Dr.Rich,

I think I may not be clear on what you are looking to do. I thought you were planning to order either the 14" wire grid at FSF or the usboxspring with legs to put under your mattress (as an alternative to the 14" wire grid foundation).

But you are now mentioning making your 1x3 slats better. Iā€™m not clear on what you mean by this. If your 1 x 3 slats are more than 3" apart then I would use something else (or add more slats if you are comfortable with a DIY project or put a bunkie board or foundation on top of them).

So just to make sure I am clear on what you want to do ā€¦

You have some kind of bedframe with 1x3 slats that run from side to side?

The bedframe has a center beam that is supported to the floor in the middle of the bedframe (to prevent sagging)?

The distance between these slats is more than 3"?

If this is the case ā€¦ then you would need something over these slats such as a foundation, a low profile foundation, or a bunkie board (usually about 2" thick) which had slats less than 3" apart or if the slats in your bedframe were fairly close to what you needed and only needed a little more evenly supportive surface then some kind of other material that could even out the support and prevent the latex from sinking through the gaps.

It seems you are also considering replacing the bedframe and slats completely with either the 14" wire grid foundation or a different foundation with legs?

And you are also considering using a set of older box springs instead of a rigid non flexing foundation?

If you do want to use the box springs then they could change the feel and performance of the mattress compared to a firm non flexing foundation but if they are in very good condition with no weak spots (you can test this with your knee in all the areas of the box springs to make sure there are no weak or soft spots) then it would be OK as far as having even support even though it wouldnā€™t be ideal (thicker latex mattresses work best on a firm non flexing foundation).

Hopefully Iā€™ve covered all your options but Iā€™m not clear if you are keeping the bedframe with the slats you have or if you want to replace it with something else completely or if you are putting something inside the bedframe and removing the slats completely (like the picture in the FSF foundation page).

Can you clarify or fill in what Iā€™m missing?

Phoenix

Sorry for my miscommunication. My bed is a beautiful cal king with only four 1x3" slats going across. Its not well designed as i found that these poor slats were sagging big time under my box spring and 12" ortho innerspring mattress. If the slats had legs they had broken off so no center support. I propped up each slat with medical books. You cant see them as the bed has beautiful sides with enough room to get those books in there! That has worked well for years. I had hoped to fix this condition for the next mattress. The box springs and orth matress are about six years old. I considered the wire frame but it just looks bad and gives me a bad feeling with regard to damaging the latex mattress. After looking under the bed again, i thought maybe i can just put the new mattress on the current box springs. Thats got to be as good as a wire thing. I could put the sleepez box there if the box springs dont feel good. Hopefully the books hold up everything. I trust scott at fsf and the 12"latex did feel significantly better. I have cold feet now thinking maybe ive got too much weight and height. Amazingly the 12" of nice talalay is a grand cheaper than 9" of latex in the electopedics model that i couldnt pull the trigger onā€¦ With a better return/exchange policy. Im trying to use my bed with a box and a mattress. I was told by electropedic and by henry at flexus that they would make a box with legs to get the overall height to 26" but i chose a place with a better mattress for me but a project as well. :dry:

Hi Dr.Rich,

OK ā€¦ I get it now.

Box springs will have some flex to them (they have springs and are designed for an innerspring mattress) and the wire grid foundation or a slatted foundation will be much more firm and non flexing. If the box springs havenā€™t been damaged by the sagging slats and still have a level surface and no weak spots they would provide evenly distributed support under the mattress but if they are sagging the mattress will follow the sag and either way they may change the feel and response of the mattress because of the extra flex under the mattress. Sleeping on it would answer if that was OK. Otherwise then removing the slats and adding the SleepEz foundation or any suitable foundation with bedlegs of the right height would work well.

You would have close to the same weight issues with any latex mattress or if the slats are sagging you would have a support issue with any mattress so I donā€™t think the mattress is the real issue and it certainly is good value. I would be tempted to use a solid foundation with legs attached if that gives you the height you want (or the bedlegs which can go with any foundation and you can choose the height you want) or alternatively try the box springs as a temporary solution to see how it worked but I would make sure that the surface was level and it had no weak spots as well.

Phoenix

Phoenix,
I considered your wise advice and had a lengthy conversation with Bill at US Box Spring. We explored options for a foundation. Most of his suggestions were terrific and had nothing to do with his product, i.e. plywood, DIY projects etc. As you suggested i chose to get his 9" high wood foundation and put 5" universal legs on it. He agreed to waive the shipping fee. He is sure the legs will work on the foundation. He liked the idea so much that he plans on on selling the legs on his site. Very convenient. Best of all, he agreed to waive the shipping fee for all who ask! Now he has the best price. Just thought i would let you know since i found him to be so forthright, helpful and patient. The foundation is already on its way just a few hours after ordering it!

Hi Dr.Rich,

Thatā€™s good news :slight_smile:

Thanks too for doing the legwork to have the shipping fee waived ā€¦ that will help other members who are looking at them and ask as well. Iā€™ve added a note to the foundation thread to make sure they do.

Phoenix

Hi Rich. Just off the phone with Bill at US Box Springs and boy is he a great guy!
How do you like the product? I just have a feeling his foundation is going to be quality, but I thought Iā€™d check with you.
Actually I was going to dive in and order immediately, but he advised me not toā€¦that I should wait ā€˜til Tuesday when he has new photos are to be posted. I had a number of questions and he took his time answering them all, in addition to offering wise advice. I had really wanted to see photos of his latest foundation (the original had some minor tweaking) and even thoā€™ I wanted to order after having such a nice chat, he insisted I wait for the photos to be uploaded so that I was going to be fully satisfied with the updated images prior to ordering. I mean, how incredibly honorable is that?? He sure had a bird in the hand, but chose to do the right thing.
I am really looking forward to purchasing from himā€¦Iā€™d be really shocked if I didnā€™t love it!
Thanks for your feedback Rich. Iā€™ve a feeling you are happy with your purchase!
:slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:
(Iā€™ll be sure to post my recommendation after I have been able to try it out for a few nights)
Best,
Kathleen
P.S. I have received my latex mattressā€¦I ended up ordering from Dreamfoam Bedding, where Chuckā€™s customer service was terrific. Iā€™ll have to post an update for this forum after Iā€™ve had a chance to use it on my foundation.

Hi bibliophile,

Iā€™ll second your thoughts about US Box springs.

Congratulations on your new mattress as well :slight_smile:

Iā€™m looking forward to your feedback about your new mattress and your new foundation as well!

Phoenix

sorry for the delay, bibliophile. i havenā€™t been on the site for a while because i got my foundation and bed and have been so happy! Yes, Bill, at us box spring, is a terrific guy and very forthright. I think the world of himā€¦ I got my latex bed from foam sweet foam. they are terrific. good price, good quality. i changed the levels of my four 3" layers to make it more firm and havenā€™t looked back. (i made it Med/Firm/ExFirm/Med). take care and sleep well!

Looking at their online site, the 9" natural talalay seems a good price (better than SleepEZ). Quick question. Would getting a Medium/Firm/Medium (26/32/26) make it ā€œflippableā€?

How would it compare to a Denver Telluride? (I know totally different initial effect, but after youā€™re lying there for a while?). Anything at a Denver Mattress store that might be ā€œcloseā€ that I could get my wife to try?

Any smell in it DrRich?

Hi tcat007,

SleepEz and FSF are both great value although there are some differences between the options they offer that may be more or less important for some people. They would certainly both make great choices.

Somewhat yes. The cover is one sided so you would need to remove the foam and put the layers back in the opposite order to ā€œflipā€ it.

I think these two mattresses are far too different to make any kind of meaningful comparison between them outside of subjective comparisons from someone who had tested or slept on both of them (and their perceptions and assessment may only apply to them). I personally havenā€™t slept on either of them so I really have no idea.

The top few inches of foam are a big part of what someone feels on a mattress ā€¦ at least initially ā€¦ but I also donā€™t know the ā€œcomfort specsā€ of the foams in the Telluride (ILD, compression modulus, resilience, elasticity etc) and itā€™s very difficult to speculate about how a mattress that uses several types of foam in the comfort layers would feel in comparison to a very different mattress design in real life even if the specs are known. Different body types will also be more sensitive to different layers (they will ā€œgo throughā€ some layers more than others and ā€œcome to restā€ more or less deeply in the mattress) so how they felt and compared would be different for different people.

About the closest you could come would be to have someone ā€œrateā€ them as either soft, medium, or firm in very general terms (and even here there are different types of softness) and hope that the meaning of the ā€œword ratingsā€ that were used are similar enough between the people who are rating them that they would be somewhat close approximations.

There really is no way to predict ā€œin theoryā€ how they would compare for someone else except in the very general or approximate and subjective terms based on personal experience.

I would think that the closest to an all latex mattress with 3x3" layers that Denver Mattress would have is their new iChoice latex mattress and topper although the ILD (firmness level) and layer thickness of the upper layers and topper would still be different (and they donā€™t offer custom choices).

There may be other retailers or manufacturers close to you that carry a mattress that may be a closer approximation and if you let me know your city or zip Iā€™d be happy to let you know of any Iā€™m aware of in your area.

Phoenix