I recently purchased a Dreamfoam 12-in-1, all HD polyurethane mattress, to replace a 17 year old pillow top spring core mattress that was not longer comfortable to sleep in. Unfortunately, I am finding that this mattress is not more comfortable than my old mattress, and Iām likely going to be returning it, and getting another mattress.
The issue seems to be one of lumbar support. I have minor back issues, and having a mattress that can provide some support to my lower back seems to make a large difference in comfort. I thought I would be able to find comfort with some configuration of the 12-in-1, but Iām not finding it.
I notice in your discussion of comfort layers you say āThe only soft polyurethane foam that is really suitable for use in a comfort layer is the highest grade called HR (High Resilience 2.5 lbs or higher) polyfoam.ā I guess I should have payed more attention to that given that the 12-in-1 only has 2.0lb HD foam layers.
In contrast, I have recently tried sleeping on a friends FloBeds all-natural latex bed and I find it remarkably comfortable, and it seems to provide good lumbar support despite being a soft mattress. I can feel the difference in pressure between the two mattresses when I place my hand below my lower back when lying down.
Granted, this is not a fair comparison. The FlowBeds mattress was a $2000 mattress, and the 12-in-1 is only $400.
Iām wondering if the quality Iām looking for is āresilienceā. If heard it described as āthe ability to push back and hold the more recessed parts of you upā (by this site), but Iāve also read in several other places that itās the speed at which the foam returns back to itās original form after removing pressure. These seem unrelated. Which is it?
And more practically, is itās likely I can find this kind of lumbar support with a mattress that has a 3" latex comfort layer, and the rest is HD polyfoam? Iād love to have a $2000 mattress but unfortunately I cannot afford that right now. It seems though there are lots of options in the $600-1000 range with latex comfort layers (including several from Dreamfoam).
Thanks for the update and feedback and Iām sorry to hear that the Dreamfoam 12 in 1 customizable isnāt working out for you.
Thanks for bring this page to my attention since it had some information that wasnāt accurate at all and contradicted some of the other pages and guidelines on the site. Iāve re-written it so that it is more in line with the information about polyfoam comfort layers here and in the foam quality guidelines here and it now also includes some information about some of the newer versions of high performance polyfoam that are available in the market.
This particular page was written over 4 years ago when I was first writing the initial articles for the site (before the site was online) and was written with an eye to identifying more āpremiumā higher quality materials that were more comparable to latex and memory foam and suitable for use in higher budget mattresses and also didnāt take into account the budget range of the mattress. It was never edited over time (unlike most of the other pages of the site) as the scope and focus of the site was broadened or new types of foam were developed. Iām amazed that you were the first one to mention it and appreciate that you brought the inaccuracies and discrepancies in it to my attention.
2.0 lb polyfoam is a high quality and durable material that would be suitable for higher weight ranges as well and the information you read was certainly misleading.
Resilience is a measure of how much energy a foam stores rather than dissipates and is measured by the percentage of the original height that a ball will bounce when it is dropped on a material. It has very little to do with āsupportā which has more to do with firmness and compression modulus because even lower density or softer materials can have a higher resilience (be more springy) and slow response materials like memory foam have no resilience at all. It is also closely connected to the freedom of movement on a mattress (low resilience materials are more āmotion restrictingā).
In any case ā¦ the Dreamfoam 12 in 1 mattress certainly uses high quality materials and there are no āweak linksā in its design and it is a particulary good quality choice in itās budget range and would be suitable for higher weight ranges as well although that doesnāt mean that it would be a good match for any particular person in terms of PPP (although with 12 different configurations it would be unusual that someone didnāt find a configuration that was suitable for them).
The only way to know whether any mattress would be a good match for you in terms of PPP would be by your own testing or personal sleeping experience but there is more about primary or ādeepā support and secondary or āsurfaceā support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the ārolesā of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between the two types of āsupportā and āpressure reliefā and āfeelā and why some mattresses are suitable for some people but not for others that have a different body type, sleeping position, or preferences or sensitivities.
There is also more about the different ways to choose a mattress that can help you identify and minimize the risks involved with each of them in post #2 here but in the end it the only way to know for with absolute certainty whether any mattress is a good match for you is when you actually sleep on it.
Thanks again for the update and your feedback ā¦ and especially for bringing a page that had some misleading or outdated information to my attention so I could correct it ā¦ I appreciate it
I decided to retry a layer arrangement that Iād quickly discounted before, and found it pretty comfortable last night - certainly better than my old mattress, so maybe Iāll be keeping the 12-in-one after all. Those posts you mentioned were helpful in understanding how mattress work to keep proper alignment.
Iāve arranged to sleep on my friendās five year old $2000 FlowBed again this weekend so I can really compare to what a full latex mattress feels like. If itās a whole lot better I may end up returning the 12-in-1, taking the $99 restocking/shipping hit, and spend the money to get a mattress Iāll be really happy with.
Iāll post later for the benefit of future mattress purchasers.
I hope you find a layering arrangement that works well for you. Although polyfoam will never āfeelā like latex, itās also in a much lower budget range and for many people it can make a very good choice.
One of the advantages of a component mattress is also that you can replace individual layers and it may also be worth considering a 3" latex topper and replacing the top layer of the 12 in 1 with latex so you have more of the āfeelā of a latex sleeping surface (although of course it still wouldnāt be the same as an āall latexā mattress like Flobeds).
Yeah, I may just do that. I really do like having a zip up mattress cover, and a lot of control over the layers. Looks like a 3" latex toppers run around $300+, so that would only be around $200 out of my pocket when taking into account the potential restocking fees
If you do decide to go in the direction of a topper then post #3 here and the topper guidelines it links to includes more information about choosing a topper and also links to a list of the better online sources for latex toppers Iām aware of as well.
I did an experiment taking on of my friendās 3" latex support layers and putting it in the middle of my 12-in-1 with the soft polyfoam layer on top. It did like the added support it gave, and the feel. Iām not sure how firm that latex layer is, but it seemed on the firmer side.
Iām really leaning toward getting a latex 3" layer. But Iām not sure what firmness to get. It seems to me a āsoftā (~20 ild) would be best as a top layer, so that I get the most out of the latex support properties and āfeelā. Iād still have a lot of control over the firmness of the mid and lower layers with the polyfoam that came with the 12-in-1. And from my experience, the firmness of the middle layer had a large impact on the perceived softness of the top layer, and pressure point relief.
Then again maybe something a little firmer (~28) and I can make the mid layer softer?
I know you canāt know my softness preference, but any thoughts on what might be an appropriate firmness level to upgrade a Dreamfoam 12-in-1?
(Just to add some more info. What I found worked best for me with the 12-in-1 was the āmediumā firmness that from bottom to top is firm, soft, medium. Iām also about 5ā10" 180lbs.)
Unfortunately there are far too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved for me to make any specific firmness suggestions and some trial and error will be necessary to find the configuration that works best for you because different people can be very different from each other even if they have a similar body type.
The first thing I would decide though is whether you would prefer to use latex as the top layer in your mattress (which would give you more of the āfeelā of latex) or whether you would prefer it in the transition layer (which would have more of the āfeelā of the top polyfoam layer but would be āmodifiedā by the latex underneath it) because this will affect your firmness choice.
The best suggestion I can provide would be to make sure that the latex topper you purchase has a good return or exchange option so that you can use your own personal experience to decide whether you made the most suitable choice and if you choose a firmness level that isnāt ideal for you in combination with your other layering options that you can exchange it for a different firmness level.
This is what is called a ādominating layerā where a softer layer is used under a firmer layer. You can see some comments about this type of design in post #33 here and the posts it links to and if this is a āfeelā that you like then it may be worthwhile using a medium latex layer (in the range of 28 - 32 ILD or so) as a starting point which you can try either over the same bottom layers or use as a transition layer under the soft or medium polyfoam.
I think Iād be happy with my 12-in-1 mattress as it is today, but I think having some latex in the mix is going to make me even happier, and worth the couple hundred extra dollars.
Just to follow up, DreamFoam sent me a 3" 24 ILD talalay layer (blended I assume) made by Latex International.
I slept on it in this confuration:
24 LI latex
Med Polyfoam
Firm Polyfoam
It was certainly an improvement. My 12-in-1 went from being OK to pretty good. Iām sold on latex as being a great material for a mattress. This configuration is still a tad too soft for me. I tried flipping the hard/med polyfoam and that was too firm. I still have access to my generous friendās all natural rubber latex FlowBed, so also have access to 32 ILD and 36 ILD 3" layers.
Just for an experiment I tried this:
24 LI latex
36 FB latex
Firm polyfoam
I like this as well, but this seemed a bit to firm, and didnāt seem to let my lower body sink in enough. Then I tried this:
24 LI latex
32 FB latex
Firm polyfoam
And this seemed to be the sweet spot for lying on my back or side, and seemed to cradle my lumber region just right when on my back. Amazing how such a small change can make a difference. I may try sleeping on that tonight for a real test. If I like it I may end up getting a 32 IDL layer. So basicallyā¦my initial 12-in-1 purchase has become a DIY bed, which isnāt a bad thing I guess :cheer:
Thanks for the updates and for sharing the results of your experimentation with different combinations.
I think itās always a good idea to spend a couple of nights at least on any particular combination so that your body has a chance to ācatch upā with the changes you are making and to make sure that your experience is more of a āpatternā than an anomaly.
I think your experience also goes to show how relatively small differences between different mattress designs and layer firmnesses can make a surprising difference in how a mattress feels and performs for different people.
You seem to be heading towards a combination that is somewhat similar to the Aloe Alexis with two 3" layers of latex and a firmer polyfoam base layer although the base layer in the Alexis would be thicker than the base layer in your ā12 in 1 variantā.
Thanks again for taking the time to share your experiences :).
Well, after 2 nights on the Firm bottom, 32 latex middle, 24 latex top configuration, I have reasonable confidence that it is pretty much close to perfection as far as back sleeping goes. And it feels just as perfect when I wake up, as when I initially lie on it. I seem to be sleeping pretty solidly too.
Now Iām stick with another dilemma: Itās perfect for back sleeping, but not ideal for side sleeping since my hips and shoulders donāt seem to sink enough. On my old mattress as least, I was a back and side sleeper. I think that was partly because the mattress was not that conformable, so seemed to require adjusting position. But I really canāt say which I prefer, and Iām not sure I want to sacrifice comfort in one sleeping position for perfection in another.
I had to return my friendās mattress to itās original condition this morning, so Iāll be back to Firm polyfoam, Medium polyfoam, 24 latex again. If does feel more comfortable now laying on my side, but I miss the perfect back cradle. I guess Iāll give it a few more nights and see how it goes. Maybe getting a 28 ILD instead of a 32 ILD for a latex midlayer would be better, giving me the superior support properties of the latex while on my back, while also giving me more comfort for side sleeping.
It can sometimes be difficult to identify and make the type of āfine tuningā changes that goes from 90% good to 95% great (I donāt think that anyone ever reaches 100%).
I would also keep in mind that there are many ways to make changes to the pressure relief, support, and āfeelā of a mattress and changing the ILD of a layer is only one of them. Changing the transition layer to a 28 ILD may end up being the āsweet spotā as far as layer ILDās where you sleep well on both your back and on your side but if it isnāt and you have reached the ābest possibleā outcome with a specific type of change then other types of āfine tuningā changes that are possible within your overall design such as adding a thin topper of some type may be necessary if you reach the limit of the type of changes that are possible with changing ILD alone.
:blink: It seems the mattress layers are not the entire problem.
I just got a 32 ILD talalay layer today, deciding side sleeping was actually pretty good after all. I put the layers on the bed frame without the mattress cover (āhardā polyfoam, 32 latex, 24 latex), threw a thin cotton quilt over it an lied on it to test it out. This is the way I had tested out latex before, since it was so much trouble to put on the mattress cover, protector, sheetsā¦ It felt great! I even dozed off for half an hour before I knew it.
Then I actually assembled the mattress. Put it in itās cover, put a mattress protector on it, and a fitted cotton/poly blend sheet. And then lied down on it again. Much of the supportive feel of the latex was GONE! It never occurred to me that the thin layers covering the latex could significantly affect the feel, but it certainly seems to be the case.
It seems to me that there is not enough stretch in these coverings, and so depressions on two points cause tension in the fabric, causing the latex between the two points to depress. Is something like that maybe going on?
Even with just the mattress cover that came with the 12-in-1, the supportive qualities of the latex seem to be diminished, though Iām reserving judgement until I sleep on it for a night. Looking at the tag, itās a Brooklyn Bedding āTrybedā model cover made last month. Google seems unaware of this model.
Can a ānon-stretchyā mattress cover diminish the supportive benefits of latex? What about a protector and/or sheets?
(On a side note, it seems from the title of this thread, the quality I was looking for is āpoint elasticityā, not āresilienceā.)
[quote]I just got a 32 ILD talalay layer today, deciding side sleeping was actually pretty good after all. I put the layers on the bed frame without the mattress cover (āhardā polyfoam, 32 latex, 24 latex), threw a thin cotton quilt over it an lied on it to test it out. This is the way I had tested out latex before, since it was so much trouble to put on the mattress cover, protector, sheetsā¦ It felt great! I even dozed off for half an hour before I knew it.
Then I actually assembled the mattress. Put it in itās cover, put a mattress protector on it, and a fitted cotton/poly blend sheet. And then lied down on it again. Much of the supportive feel of the latex was GONE! It never occurred to me that the thin layers covering the latex could significantly affect the feel, but it certainly seems to be the case.
It seems to me that there is not enough stretch in these coverings, and so depressions on two points cause tension in the fabric, causing the latex between the two points to depress. Is something like that maybe going on?[/quote]
Different types of mattress covers and quilting materials can have a significant effect on the feel and performance of a mattress (for better or worse depending on each personās preferences). Some people will prefer a more stretchy cover and others prefer a quilted cover to reduce the resilience of the latex and to add some surface softness to their mattress. There is more about the effect of different types of quilted covers vs unquilted and more āstretchyā covers in post #12 here and the posts it links to.
Mattress protectors, mattress pads, and even your sheets can have a similar effect and this is certainly a source of surprise and many comments from the members here because most consumers donāt think as much about the effect of the cover or the bedding they use on top of the mattress and focus more on the materials inside the mattress. There are also some comments about this in the mattress protector post here.
Brooklyn Bedding doesnāt have a Trybed model and itās probably just a name for the cover they use on the 12 in 1 customizable and possibly the Freedom mattress as well which also has a similar design except it uses synthetic latex instead of polyfoam.
Thanks for your reply Phoenix, those links were a big help.
I take it back. Itās not made by āBrooklyn Beddingā. Itās made by Broooklyn Bedding (3 oās). :huh: (I tried to attach photo of the tag -seems thatās not working) The address on the label is claimed by a business called R&S Mattresses.
In any event, the cover surface looks just like the picture at the Dreamfoam website. It seems to some kind of 2 way stretch fabric, a layer of soft, polyfoam, with some kind of rough non-stretch material on the bottom. I though it might be that the cover was stretched so tight over the inner materials might be part of the problem, but it seems to affect the feel even with the top of the cover not zipped on. This seems consistent with what I read in the links you gave me. So I may be looking for a new cover, at which point the only original part of the 12-in-1 would be the āfirmā layer in the core. :lol:
The ābottomā of the cover is thinner. I suppose I could try that as the top side and see how that feels.
The mattress protector is made by Luna. It does seem to stretch a bit, and they claim it does not affect the feel of a mattress. Putting it alone on the layers - their claim does seem to hold up for the most part. I notice you mention it:
Would you consider Luna one of the ābetter onesā?
I could not bring myself to sleep last night on the mattress with the cover on, I like the feel of the latex so much! :woohoo: It seems from reading the links you gave me that if I really want to get the most out of the resilient feel of the latex, I want to get āan unquilted stretch knit coverā. I have not read in detail your links about that, but do you have any idea if itās possible to just get the top part of a mattress cover that would zip in to replace the top I have now? Actually maybe I should be asking Dreamfoam of āBroooklyn beddingā since Iām sure itās highly manufacturer specific.
There is a glitch in the forum software that seems to prevent some browsers from adding attachments (particularly Google Chrome) and there is some information in the help section here that may help but if all else fails then if you email me the pictures then Iād be happy to attach them to your post for you. This should be corrected in the next update of the site.
R&S mattress is one of the Brooklyn Bedding group of companies (which also includes Dreamfoam Bedding and Brooklyn Bedding itself).
Most of the thin membrane types of covers are quite similar but based on feedback from a number of retailers I would consider the Luna to be one of the better options of this type yes (although I havenāt compared them in person with others that are very similar).
I donāt know of anywhere that you could buy just the top part of a cover but there are some options for complete stretch knit covers in post #4 here.
