DIY Latex Mattress Help - SUPER firm base layer

Hi there,

First of all, I just want to say this site has been immensely helpful. What a wonderful resource Phoenix et all have created here. Thanks for all of your efforts to help people get a decent night’s sleep.

I am hoping to be one of those people!

The first time around, about a year and a half ago, I very much did not do my research adequately, walked into a Sleepy’s and walked out with a mattress that felt like a cloud in the showroom and for a month or 2…and then realized it has the back support of a cloud too. And my lower back has been pretty much a mess as I’ve been bowed like a hammock for a a long time now.

I’m finally getting around to buying a new bed despite the bad taste in my mouth of paying so much for a new bed so relatively close to the last one. But is what it is.

So my main concerns in this order are:

  1. getting some back support
  2. as there are a lot of health concerns in my family, avoiding any potential harmful materials
  3. price

From the research I’ve done, I’d like to steer away from foam if possible (though mayyyybe as a base) even if Certi-pur certified and it seems latex is as good as it gets for both pressure relief/support and in avoiding toxins (even in its blended/SBR forms) despite the higher cost. I’ve laid on latex locally and it’s a strange new bouncy sensations to me, but my back felt great and I feel like I could get accustomed to that.

Now, I was thinking at first latex was going to be out of my price range probably, but one of your recommended sites (mattresses.net) is having a clearance right now of a ton of extra latex they got from Latex International (Save Big with DIY Latex Mattress Components, Latex Mattresses-Talalay and Dunlop, All Products,). They are selling blended “extra extra firm 6” (46-50 ILD) talalay latex bases" for $450 which very much puts latex back in play as financially possible…

…if I can find the right topper/support layer for such a hard base.

Honestly, I’ve seen virtually nothing in my research here or elsewhere about dealing with latex of that high an ILD so wanted to ask for some opinions. How thick and what ILD would I need on that to have a supportive, comfortable bed do you think?

mattresses.net is saying “For a side sleeper you will need at least 4” of “soft” #19 to #22 over these cores. I recommend two 2" #22 toppers. For what I consider to be a “medium” feel I would just add a 3" #19 topper or a 3" #28 topper for a firm feel."

I’d probably need a medium-firm feel for my back. That’s what’s felt best in stores trying things out. I’m 6’0" and 160-170lbs. I realize there’s plenty of subjectivity involved but any idea on what the “least risky”, as Phoenix says, options might be? (I think I’ve liked talalay better, but haven’t ruled out dunlop necessarily.)

I might buy a topper from them mattresses.net, or perhaps a topper from Dixiefoam in New York where I live locally since that would probably be easier to exchange if it ended up being too hard/too soft.

Thanks so much everybody. Looking forward to getting some pain free sleep soon-ish!

Hi Eddie Bedder,

There are too many unknowns, variables, and individual preferences involved to be able to use a formula or “theory at a distance” to choose the combination of layers that may be best for you but when you can’t test a specific mattress or combination of layers in person then your best odds of success would be based on more detailed conversations with either a manufacturer or a supplier of a material that is familiar with how it feels and performs in combination with other options they have because they are more familiar with it than anyone (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).

You would certainly have a “supportive” mattress no matter what you put on top of it but the biggest issue will be choosing a suitable comfort layer that provides you with good pressure relief.

Given Ken’s experience with the material and based on “averages” … I would say (not surprisingly) that his suggestions are good ones and I would use them as your guideline.

I would keep in mind that there is no specific definition for “medium firm” and that one retailer’s or manufacturer’s rating may be very different from the next and it may also vary from person to person. If you found out the specifics of a “medium firm” mattresses that felt best for you then it may provide some reference points but “medium firm” is really too subjective and vague to be of any specific use.

The choice between Talalay and Dunlop is really a matter of personal preference so there wouldn’t be any better or worse. The “least risky” option IMO wouldn’t be a matter of ILD (the suggestions you already have seem very reasonable to me) but one where you have exchange options after a purchase so you can use “best judgement” to make an initial choice to use as your reference point and then you can use your actual sleeping experience to change it if your initial combination turns out to be less than ideal.

I would also consider that the cover will make a difference in how the combination feels and performs.

Phoenix

I bought a set of those bases I called it extra firm in my desc but guess its extra extra :slight_smile:

https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/aloha-and-mahalos-we-finally-bought-a-custom-latex-bed

even have a pic of it with two 3 inch layers on there base

I like super firm bases and softer tops with some support wife and I both like that solid feeling rather than the sinky feeling of beds ? but this is like describing pizza or lasagna :slight_smile: hard to describe :slight_smile:

I can say this we liked it over the other ones we tried obviously :slight_smile: cause we bought it
but we did try it with just one 3 inch layer and no way would I do that for me it was bottoming out to quick but a soft bottom out
two 2 inch were close in price so we just jumped to two 3 inch

also trying a standard bed they sell which is 9 inches latex and 1 inch wool or something like that the latex layers are a 6 inch base with a 28 or 19 top was nice but I found the 3 layer setup of the super firm sale bases has a nice sink in comfort top level feel and the support for me still is there and that super firm base kinda gives you a feel of no jiggle as my wife says :slight_smile: as I say it stops you from sinking to deep into it I hate that banana feel of to soft beds that don’t have that support and only comfort layer

I think Phoenix wrote somewhere about 3 layers compared to two layers ? and not sure if the word is transition that 3 layers has or what the word was but they do seem to kinda work better both my wife and I are happy where some of the other thinner 2 layer beds kinda are to firm or two soft to quickly ? hard to describe for me :slight_smile:

I guess trying a 3 layered bed with a 38 base layer (I keep forgetting if its 38 or 39) but going to the super firm did not make as much difference as I thought it would ?
again 3 layers

now a two layer 38 base and a 19 top or 28 top for me was easy to feell the difference !
where the 3 layers its harder to feel the differences but they are there just more subtle ?
and a two layer super firm base would just be to firm unless you went with two more layers a comfit layer and a extra base layer for support making that super firm more a super support layer :slight_smile:

maybe the best way to describe it is a progressive curve ? not sure if you are into any kinda sport with suspension but its for sure like a progressive rate spring setup soft at first for the little bumps but the last bit firms up really quick to absorb the bigger bumps and you never feel bottomed out :slight_smile:

Thanks for your input Phoenix and CKMaui,

Good to be in touch with someone who has worked with this company and these bases before, CKMaui.

I’m a little confused about your post though CKMaui. So is your base the same super super hard one I was talking about here which is the 44-50ILD one? (Save Big with DIY Latex Mattress Components, Latex Mattresses-Talalay and Dunlop, All Products,) Or you were saying you now have a 38-39ILD base?

And are you saying you found you were bottoming out into that hard base with only one topper? And that you felt the extra 3 inch topper to make a progressive mattress really helped with that? I’m definitely concerned about bottoming out on the 3" topper since the website says that 44-50ILD base is like sleeping on the floor. Would you mind letting me know how tall you are an how much you weigh? If we’re close and you were bottoming out, then that could be a good guideline for me if I’d sink too hard into that "floor"like base layer.

I’m a side sleeper as well so very interested in your experiences here. Thanks so much! Not sure I’d be able to afford two toppers so hopefully there’s something that works with just one! Very much appreciated! Glad yours has worked out so well for you. I Hhpe I feel that good when this is all over too!

sorry for confusion :slight_smile: I have the sale base 44-50 one at home I bought :slight_smile:

6 foot 220 - 240lbs think big stocky build squat 1000 lbs kinda guy now in my 50s I sit in a office chair my armpits are to the edge of the chair :slight_smile: XXL Gloves size 12 shoe XXXX wide I was that guy in Highscool that had the beard and was 6 foot 190-200 lbs high school guy so for sure way bigger than you funny I did not play football and the coaches were always begging me to do it ! I raced MX instead ! but you can imagine having this huge dude who refused to play ball :slight_smile: hahahahah

my wife is about 5,7 160 she also bottomed out and found it really really firm with just one layer
and wife and I like the same kinda beds lucky for us :slight_smile: firm with softer top we hate soft beds !!!
so using her more as a gauge to you :slight_smile: she bottomed out and found it way to firm

in relation when we looked at normal beds say serta and stuff she like me liked extra firm even some of the firm pillow top serta were to soft feeling for her and we both hated the medium kinda regular beds so her idea of a regular bed is a extra firm just to kinda get a idea :slight_smile:

YES we bottomed out with one 3 inch layer on that sale base !
we tried both 19 single on the 44-50 base and took that off put on a single 28 on that 44-50 base
both setups were way to firm for both wife and I

also we go camping we use a Nemo 3 inch backpack pad and sleeping bags so we are still the kind used to things like that and we find those quite nice I go camping in my kids room some time I think the memo pads on a padded carpet might be a toss with that 44-50 with single layer to give you a idea so again I am saying its FIRM with one layer :slight_smile: hahaha

http://www.nemoequipment.com/product/?p=Cosmo+Air+%26+Pillowtop+1P+SE

I do think the numbers only relate to there beds and Phoenix would agree the numbers mean little if you go elsewhere so when I quote the numbers its only for there store benefit to know or compare

hope that helps more :slight_smile: can always answer what I can about what I got :slight_smile:

if they did not have those sale bases I would have done this Ultra Plush Talalay Latex Bed, Latex Mattresses-Talalay and Dunlop, All Products,
with a 3 inch rejuvenate topper in 19 a bit down the road when I could afford it both wife and I liked that one next in line ?
again its tough cause I am a lot bigger than ya :wife is more in line weight wise but I carry it very even across me so distribution wise I would say I am normal that way
but sure you know what is one persons firm or soft is tough :slight_smile:

Very helpful CKMaui. Thank you!

That’s unfortunate to hear someone close to my size was bottoming out with one topper. I can’t afford two toppers. Certainly not the actual bed here you mentioned: Ultra Plush Talalay Latex Bed, Latex Mattresses-Talalay and Dunlop, All Products,

Also, I didn’t realize those topper numbers were specific only to the mattresses.net. I thought those were the ILD numbers! Good catch. I’ll have to ask them about that.

Sigh. Oh well. I’ll talk to them come the work week, but not too hopeful now for this to work out now to get a latex bed in my budget. I’ll keep you updated with how it goes!

Thanks so much for your input about your experience.

Hi CKMaui and Eddie Bedder,

The Talalay ILD numbers are “assigned” by Latex International so they would be consistent between anyone who carried them and can be compared with ILD numbers for other Talalay products to compare firmness levels.

Phoenix

yeah but the nice two layer is also very comfy
yeah the 3 layer might have a touch more depth to it or whatever ya call it plushness etc…

to me I would have also been happy with the base two layer like I said so I would not get to bummed :slight_smile: sure you will find what you like in budget

also we got ours without a cover the zip thing otherwise
we like the raw feel anyway so that option might be something to think about raw base of something 32 or 36 and 19 or so topper and get the zip cover when ya can swing it later on :slight_smile: or that 3rd layer in a year when ya can swing it :slight_smile:

we also looked at this building a E king

so two for $1000
and a topper for $350 to $450
then do the zip cover thing later you get 9 inch of latex :slight_smile:

Phoenix thanks for clearing up that ILD number thing :slight_smile:

on the budget talk to em tell em what your budget is :slight_smile: that is how I worked it out I cam with in $7 :slight_smile: happy camper :slight_smile:

I know talking to the owners reading on here and feeling the difference of blended vs non blended I was OK with blended :slight_smile: IMHO its like some things being organic that might be more a marketing thing and considering you hear the blended is the tougher stuff last longer anyway :slight_smile: I am all for tougher and last longer :slight_smile:

its like going to a pizza place :wink: do you like more or less cheese more or less sauce :slight_smile: lots of options and they can make it anyway you want it :slight_smile:

Thanks guys,

I guess I’ll call them and ask about exactly how these Latex International assigned numbers stack up in reference to ILDs. And good to hear they’ll work with you on budget. Glad to hear you still thought the one topper on top of the one base layer was comfortable despite “bottoming out”. Hopefully they instill me with some confidence that only one topper might indeed suffice!

Will update when I’m able to speak with them!

Phoenix, I bet I’ll be coming close up to your 12132 comments shortly haha.

Hi Eddie Bedder,

The Latex International numbers are the ILD’s of their layers. You can see the scale here and as you can see these are firmer than the firmest ILD layers they normally make.

It only took a little under 3 years … and lots of typing mistakes … to get there :slight_smile:

Phoenix

did not bottom out on the softer base layers or any of there normal 2 layer beds :slight_smile: they were all fine

ONLY with one other layer on the extra extra firm :slight_smile:

[quote=“Eddie Bedder” post=30763]Thanks guys,

I guess I’ll call them and ask about exactly how these Latex International assigned numbers stack up in reference to ILDs. And good to hear they’ll work with you on budget. Glad to hear you still thought the one topper on top of the one base layer was comfortable despite “bottoming out”. Hopefully they instill me with some confidence that only one topper might indeed suffice!

Will update when I’m able to speak with them!

Phoenix, I bet I’ll be coming close up to your 12132 comments shortly haha.
[/quote]

Yeah…that’s what I’m worried about. Pretty sure I cold only afford the extra extra hard base (since it’s in such a big clearance sale) and one topper. But I’ll talk to them and see what there is to see.

Eddie,
KTT had 50 lid a few weeks ago. They can slice it to any thickness and their prices are similar to Arizona Mattress. I am not sure that you want it though because you are not extra-extra heavy. :lol:

slicing it thinner won’t do anything to the ILD numbers from what I understand ? ratings are not about a persons weight ? they are about firmness ?

Hi CKMaui,

That’s correct. If you have a 6" core and you cut a 1", a 2" and a 3" layer out of the core they would all be rated at the ILD of the original core although they would all “feel” different because the thickness of a layer will have a significant effect on how it feels and performs compared to the same material that is thicker or thinner (see post #14 here for more about the effects of the thickness of a layer or a mattress).

The actual “feel” of a certain ILD is subjective but in general heavier people will sink in more deeply to a specific layer than a lighter person so the same material in the same thickness may feel firmer or softer to different people.

Phoenix

Thanks for everyone’s input. Update is I’m somewhat back to square one…well, we’ll call it square 3. Give ourselves some credit here.

So with CKMaui’s input and in talking to Greg at mattresses.net (who is great, by the way) it really seems like I’d need two 2" toppers or a combination of 2" and a 3" topper together to work with my body size with such a hard base. And in having to get 2 toppers as opposed, that pretty much makes the savings on this clearance 44-50ILD base irrelevant in doubling the topper cost. Oh well.

But at least now having been able to lay down on some latex mattresses I have a better sense of what I want in a DIY latex mattress:
6" 32ILD Dunlop base
3" 28ILD Talalay
something wool/bamboo-y sans polyurethane filler in a cover
And in general hoping to be as natural as possible due to chemical sensitivies

SO…with a topper from mattresses.net perhaps, first I have a potential dunlop base lined up via the ebay seller “latextoppers” which Phoenix has said is trustworthy in terms of having accurate listings. And indeed, they’re reps have been very attentive over email in answering questions.

My question for now is on the variability of dunlop ILD ratings. As far as I can understand, dunlop doesn’t really have set accepted ILD ratings that are uniform industry-wide? That as a result of the dunlop process, there is a lot more variability in the material. So what it seems is that as a result, some companies are just listing an average ILD of their dunlop, and some are listing a range. The issue is that I know I skew a little firmer than “average” when it comes to the preference side of things and what I liked I was told was 32ILD - no range. But the ebay store more in my price range offers “medium-firm (28-33ILD)” and “firm (34-38ILD)”. So I’m not sure how to rationalize the range when, in skewing firm, my 32 seems to be in the middle. Should I be worried that the parts of the “medium-firm (28-33ILD)” that are 28ILD are going to feel noticeably softer and go for the firmer? Not sure of the discrepancy for one company giving a range, and one just a single number.

Wish the range had just been 30-34 for one of the options and made my choice a little easier!

For what it’s worth, mattresses.net (the one that rates just a 32 with no range) I believe use LatexCo. ebay’s latextoppers say this particular line is via LatexGreen (the 28-33 ranged mattress). Both are 100% natural.

I was reading somewhere on here that LatexGreen tends to be listed a tad softer than maybe “average” listings from other places? Or maybe that was just misconception because they leave the factory rated in IFD’s as opposed to ILD’s originally.

Aggghhh. Information snippet overload! Anyone have any thoughts on any of this? Thanks as always for how helpful everyone has been!

UPDATE: Well they MAY have solved that problem more or less. Just got an email back from ebay’s latextoppers:

"…
Regardless, if you prefer to receive a 32 ILD, you may purchase either one of the two latex types and choose Medium Firm and we will request that they hand pick one for you that is closest to 32 ILD, if you want to.

We hope that this helped. Let us know if you need anything else.

Kind Regards,

  • latextoppers"

Just wanted to double check…is that even something that can be done? Or just salesman allaying my concerns here? Of course if they DO is another question, but CAN that be done - hand picking those differences in ILD in the distribution center after it’s already left the factory?

Hi Eddie Bedder,

I would add to this that some ILD ratings are just incorrect as well. You can read more about this in post #6 here. In the case of Latextoppers they will provide accurate information that comes from their suppliers and they are particulary “fussy” about making sure that the information they provide to their customers is correct and accurate to the degree possible.

Latexco is a supplier for Latex Green. You can see their ILD ranges for 100% natural Dunlop in post #2 here. Both are sourced from Latexco.

I would also keep in mind that when you are working on a DIY mattress that you haven’t tested in person that your own personal experience is really the only reliable way to know whether a specific combination of layers and materials is a good “match” for you in terms of PPP because there isn’t a reliable formula that can predict this with any certainty. You can read more of my thoughts about a DIY design vs buying a complete mattress where you can exchange the layers in post #15 here and the other posts it links to.

I don’t think you will be able to narrow down your choices to the degree of specificity that you are looking at because there is a range of ILD’s across the surface of any latex layer and even if you could most people wouldn’t notice any difference with a variance of a few ILD anyway … particularly in a base layer. The kind of specificity you are looking at is subject to the law of diminishing returns and probably wouldn’t make as much difference as you may believe or as much as some of the other variables that are involved.

In the case of Talalay … ILD is tested in multiple places across the surface and if the supplier is willing to go through their cores and choose the one which has an average ILD that is closest to the specific ILD that you are requesting (or if the merchant keeps stock on hand and can do this with any of their layers that still have the original label from the 6" core attached) then they could. With Dunlop it can be more difficult because the variance is more than with Talalay and ILD’s aren’t as listed as specifically. I do know that latextoppers will do whatever they can or make special requests when their supplier makes it possible but once again all of this “fine detail” probably isn’t nearly as important or critical as you may believe it is.

Phoenix

Hi Eddie Bedder,

Phoenix has great advice, and I’d try to not get too caught up in the specs. I’ve done more DIY than most people have the heart for, and among other things I’ve encountered…

  1. Whatever you imagine will be amazing, is a total crap shoot if it is that amazing when you feel it. That’s true even when you own all the materials, and have some experience - there were things I was positive would be perfect, having tried something near identical, only to find it wasn’t perfect at all.

  2. Whatever you think is stupid, might actually feel amazing. Try putting a softer layer under firmer, for instance. I generally like it, and at least one of my mattresses has that design. Thick (2" to 3") of wool over soft talalay is also something I’d never have thought I’d liked and would have guessed it’d totally screw up alignment, but personally I think it’s amazing, and it actually firmed up a bit in my experience.

  3. Specs in the industry are funny in how non scientific they are. About the only thing that is true is that given a specific vendor, using a particular style of their product (as latex comes in different styles, using different blends, different zoning, different thicknesses, different patterns, etc), then firm will usually be firmer than medium, which will usually be firmer than soft. Remember, you’re not building a mechanical item here where tolerances are important, and the bedding industry seems to know that. It functions a bit more on the feeling aspect ‘does it feel good? Or do you need it a bit softer or a bit firmer?’ Even semi close is usually good enough. (Talalay is a bit more consistent it seems).

  • the really good designs seem to be simple, but may have subtle things done to give it that secretly amazing feel. Subtle zoning in particular is something that’s really hard to predict, and I suspect is used by a lot of the Dunlop brands. Certainly, my green sleep has it.
  1. The mattress case / ticking will impact the feel as much as the specs. Maybe more. Good ticking is expensive.

  2. No amount of theory at a distance worked for me (except for generalities, like I want a firmer base and softer top).

  3. Only buying materials and trying them told me anything useful.

NOTE: This was originally a reply to this post and has been transferred to a new topic. More background information is in this thread and in some of your other posts here (added for reference as this thread develops).

I agree with your 6 points dn!

I too have been experimenting, trying to come up with a comfortable solution/combo for my mattress.
I thought I would ask you and Phoenix f you have any ideas for me to try.

I have 3 -3" natural talalay, N3, N4, N5. Right now I have it arranged from top to bottom, N4, N3, N5, or 32 ild, 26 ild, 38 ild. I cut the top of my mattress cover completely off. It was a quilted organic cotton with wool. This cover was so thick and stiff that I could not even tell that there was latex inside. I have the 3 pieces in the bottom of this case and covered with a St. Dormer pad. I have also done N3, N4, N5 and with this I have good alignment but when I add to it a comfort layer, my hips sink to much and I get sciatica.
I am used to firm innersprings and I do not like sinking down into a mattress. For latex to be comfortable do you have to sink deeply into it?

I cannot sleep on the talalay alone, way too firm. I am 5’5" 125lbs. and a side sleeper. So, I have these materials to create a comfort layer.
1. wool fleece topper, 1 1/2 inch with a thick/ stiff poly backing.
2. 2" dunlop topper, 14 ild, mostly synthetic
3. 1 1/2 inch omalon convoluted foam, supposedly 22ild, 2.7 density
4. thick poly/bamboo mattress pad with elastic sides. soft but not too supportive
5. 1 1/2 inch 2.7 memory foam - will return this… felt hard.

So, I’ve tried so many combinations… my head is spinning. The best is probably when I layer all of these on top. wool topper on top of mattress, then dunlop topper, then omalon foam, then poly/bamboo mattress pad.

I have had so many aches, pains, nerve issues after I bought my mattress. Never had these issues before. I’d like to just scrape this all mattress and start over but I still want to try to fix it. Am I overlooking something, a better solution for a comfort layer? I do feel that latex on the very top does not feel right, maybe too bouncy? My body does not rest well on it… at least the pieces that I have. I did try some talalay toppers in a store and I felt the same jiggly yet hard pressure from them. I believe that I need 3" of soft yet supportive foam or wool or a combo. I want firm support along with pressure relief.

I see that IKEA has toppers now so I may check them out if they are returnable.

Any suggestions from would be much appreciated. I am really close to giving up.

Thanks