Phoenix,
Do mid to upper back pains that are a result from a mattress indicate anything specific, such as too soft or too firm? I’ve never had this type of back pain before. I am also experiencing sore hips at the joint areas. (exclusive side sleeper)
Diane
Hi Diane37,
Unfortunately this could be from many causes. Too firm could cause them from excess pressure, too soft could cause them from creating a more “hunched” position when you are sleeping, and it could also be a pillow issue. Post #2 here has more about some of the more common symptoms on a mattress and some of the possible causes but it can take some trial and error to isolate the cause. Is there a specific layering out of the three you’ve tried in this thread that seems to produce the symptoms more than the other two (that might provide a clue)?
Phoenix
After visiting Croydon Mattress Co., trying out their latex mattresses and speaking with Ron, (who was really great), I decided to make changes to my layers. I had a day to experiment so that’s what I did. I tried to simplify my configuration, eliminating materials that I felt were not working. My wool topper, bamboo/poly fiber mattress pad, and 1 1/2 omalon foam (which is really too firm for pressure relief) have been put away. Tried to keep it simple as dn suggested. This is where I am currently from top to bottom:
2" Dunlop topper 14ild
3" N3
3" N5
3" N4
This provides good support for us, and pretty good pressure relief. It is the best configuration to date, yet I still need a touch more pressure relief, for hips, shoulders, really my entire body. So, I am thinking that either i need an inch of something soft on top or beneath my topper or change out my dunlop topper for maybe a rejuvenite 3" topper? After trying mattesses at Croydon, I found that the quilted covers with some soft foam in the quilting gives the latex a softer feel for your bones. I’m not sure if I like being directly on the latex or not.
Is there a soft foam, not latex, that might work well on the very top in a 1" layer? I could then place everything in a 4 way stretch cover from Sleepez. Or perhaps just purchase a 3" soft talalay topper to switch with my 2" dunlop topper. Everyone seems to choose talalay for toppers, maybe one would feel softer for me.
I’m also looking at where I could find a quilted, with foam, zippered cover for all my current layers. I feel this is risky though. Not sure how everything would feel under this type of case.
I feel like I almost there…
Hi Diane,
I don’t know how close you are or not, however assuming you’re reasonably close there’s a couple possibilities… Again, I’d consider them first and also see Phoenix’s advice, since he has the tracking post on the go. I’m glad a ‘simpler’ approach is yielding results for you.
If you’re really really close, and depending on how much break in time each layer has had, then the Dunlop + n3 might soften up perfectly and you adjust with use. In which case, leave it alone, don’t flip or rotate it until you see if that happens.
If you’re really close, adding the n4 above the n5 will give a touch more give. Again, if you do that, and you get closer, you might be at #1.
If you find ticking (mattress case) you like, I’d inquire if you can buy it… In my own work, I found the ticking the hardest. Latex is (more or less) a commodity. You can get any type of talalay you want at competitive prices from multiple vendors, and dunlop only slightly more difficult since there are more varieties. Quality ticking that I felt I’d like, on the other hand, I found was the very hardest. Also, if you’re planning on changing the ticking, it absolutely can change the feel. But I agree, it gives a nice finished look to the mattress 
I did not encounter any zip covers with quilted foam, however I wasn’t looking for that at all either.
As another consideration, I know you have a husband involved. If he’s been satisfied with any of the combinations, you might consider DIY split zoning. That way, you’re only meddling with your side and not disturbing him. As a side benefit, and assuming you’re game for such an approach, you’ll pay roughly half if you decide to buy more latex (probably buy twinxl size and get it cut to be narrower, or cut yourself).
Thanks,
Thanks dn,
It is hard to guess what step to take next. I did try the N4 above the N5. I did not like the feel as much. I think with N5 in the middle, N3 on top compresses more? and feels softer to me. I have been on this latex for at least 3 months. How long does it take to break in?
What ticking do you have? I do like the Sleepez 4 way stretch or something similar, but I believe I need more pressure relief either directly under it or under my dunlop topper.
In your experience, have you compared blended soft dunlop to blended soft talalay? As a side sleeper, I am thinking that I need 3" topper instead of 2", and perhaps talalay is softer like I have read.
As far as being close, I still have general stiffness in the morning which I never had before, and I still feel the “hardness” of the mattress through the night. My husband doesn’t even know when I make a change in the mattress… he works hard and is tired and can sleep on just about anything. I have tried to not go too soft though, as he sleeps on his back and stomach at times. As far as zoning is concerned, my pressure point soreness seems about equal for all of my body areas with this setup.
The toughest issue with latex for me has been that even though I sink into it and it feels soft to sit on and feel, when I recline and sleep on it, it feels hard. When you look at my configuration, does it seem too firm for my height/weight (5’5" - 125 lbs.)
Thanks,
Diane
Hi Diane37,
Your results are fairly promising
The “feel” of a non latex top layer is what I suspected you may prefer and what I was “targeting” in some of the combinations I was suggesting earlier. There are some people who don’t like the higher resilience or “feel” of sleeping directly on latex and for them a less resilient quilting layer or a top layer of another type of foam or fiber is their preference. You may be one of these (which is why I was “experimenting” with some of the polyfoam and fiber layers you had on hand).
The foam that Croydon uses in their quilting layers is polyfoam but they don’t provide the specifics and the quilting will also affect how it feels and performs so this only provides generic information that is useful but you wouldn’t be able to use it to make a specific choice of the type, thickness, or firmness of the polyfoam that would approximate it. They also don’t provide the specifics of the layers under the quilting layers which will also have a significant effect on how the quilting layers feel.
Since you appear to be close and seem to like the feel of “non latex” materials in the top layer of your sleeping surface you could buy a soft egg crate polyfoam layer or even a higher quality softer solid polyfoam layer (not convoluted) at almost any foam supplier that is fairly inexpensive and may be worth considering or experimenting with. You could start with 1" and then decide if you wanted something thicker, softer, or firmer.
The multiple changes you’ve made since the last configuration are too different from the other combinations for me to identify exactly why your current combination is working better for you but in very general terms is has firmer support layers (the N5 closer to the top) and softer comfort layers (the N3 under the 2" 14 ILD dunlop) but it’s likely that “a touch to a little bit” of extra softness may be closer to what you are looking for. I suspect that the N4 under the N5 would be a good base to build on.
It’s too bad that we don’t know the ILD of the convoluted Omalon you have because this could be a useful reference point if you were to use it on top of your current combination and see how it affected things.
I’ve updated the reference post (#16) with your current layering and feedback as “Combination #3”.
I think that your comment about needing an extra inch (of latex or polyfoam) may be accurate because you may be feeling the firmness of the N3 layer more than you want to and some additional thickness will isolate you a little more from this but the softness of either Talalay or Dunlop and how they compared would depend on how the “actual” ILD’s compared. Both materials come in softer or firmer versions so Talalay wouldn’t intrinsically be softer than Dunlop unless the ILD’s were the same (using the same method of measuring ILD which isn’t always the case) in which case the Dunlop would likely feel a bit firmer.
Comparing ILD’s between different materials can be quite misleading because there are so many differences between how ILD is measured and in the other specs of each type of foam that can also affect how soft it feels just as much as the ILD.
Phoenix
Hi Diane,
I see Phoenix has already offered some wonderful advise, so no need me comment on those things.
Regarding the zoning idea I mentioned, I was referring to a side-to-side zoning where you basically make a stack for your husbands side, and one for yours. The idea started because for me, I’m usually experimenting on a twinxl bed, which is less costly for materials and less work than swapping queen or king layers. I also have a king which way harder to experiment wih. As an idea, it has some limitations mind you. That’s assuming you have a queen or traditional king (not California king).
I have a cotton 4-way stretch knit 100% organic cotton (from Sleepys.ca), as well as one with wool quilted in a cotton cover (green sleep). They both behave differently and have different pros and cons (and like everything else, you’d need to test to see what you like).
I have both soft dunlop and soft talalay, and they both are soft and it really depends on what you prefer. I personally suspect that the Dunlop you have is a touch too soft for your liking (or the n3 a touch too firm) and allowing you more direct access to the n3 below and isn’t as progressive a transition as you’d like, and that’s a complete guess only. My basic thinking being “14 ild” of your dunlop is meant to mean the softest dunlop whoever sold it has, and n3 is the 3rd softest talalay LI has in their all natural range, so in completely inaccurate and error prone estimation, there’s a larger hop in the middle between the 2.
In my experience, it’s easier to buy talalay and predict if it will be softer than, equal to, or firmer than what you have because you can just use ild (or N1-N5) to order as it’s coming from one of two fairly standardized vendors with standardized measurements… Dunlop, if you cannot feel it, is a bit more variable since they don’t really use ild as much, and there are more companies with variation between them, so one companies soft might be softer/firmer than another company, etc. With talalay, you pretty much know that n2 will be softer than n3, and n1 will be softer than n2, by example using 100% natural latex talalay from LI. With dunlop, if you look at only a single vendor, then it’s basically that easy too… But you’ll only usually get 3-4 options (soft / med / firm), and it’s near impossible to tell if soft from vendor X is softer than, equal to, or firmer than soft from vendor Y.
As Phoenix wrote, it’s a great question if you even like sleeping on latex or prefer a different feel between you and latex.
I guess the only additional idea I’ll contribute here is have you considered going back to the tutorial and shopping again, this time with your senses tuned to those very specific sensations you like and dislike. It sounds like you may be, given you trying other mattresses. It would allow you to fine tune trends with cheaper access to some possibilities. I know when I was doing some of the modifications I was doing, I went back to a bed store to try some of the models paying particular attention to those feelings i wanted to modify for my own bed. It only works well to do that if you can get exact specs on what you’re trying, which in my case wasn’t a problem (thanks to tmasc.ca)
Thanks Phoenix,
The omalon 1 1/2 " convoluted foam is 22ild. At first I thought it was pressure relieving but it actually is very firm for it’s thickness. It does not help anywhere in my comfort layers. I will use it to firm up my sofa bed.
Do you have a suggestion for which type of 1" polyfoam I should try? Are they all rather hot? Are there any that won’t have an odor and maybe plant based?
Diane
Hi Diane37,
I would keep in mind that the firmness of any specific layer depends a lot on what is either over or under it so the firmness of the layer itself may be misleading.
The main difference in polyfoam is the densities (higher densities are more durable) and in their ILD (softness/firmness) although there are many other more technical differences between them that can affect the “feel” but these will be less important (and much more difficult to understand or “translate” into something meaningful).
Because there is no way to know what will work best for someone else in combination with the layers they have … either a low cost for a polyfoam topper (so the risk is less) or a good return policy (such as from a big box store) could both be important parts of the choice and your trial and error process. I would certainly go softer than the omalon topper you currently have (which would be less than 22 ILD if it’s rated correctly because convoluting makes the effective ILD a fair bit softer than the rating).
If the density is lower and the layer you buy doesn’t last as long then you can always buy a higher quality polyfoam topper with similar specs that will last you longer but the first step is always to find the basic combination that works best for you.
Phoenix
I talked to a few mattress people at Sleepez and Mattressexpert to see if they have any advice for my configuration. I am just not comfortable with my comfort layers. I feel that from bottom to top: N4, N5, N3 or N5, N4, N3 is the right start. My dunlop 2" topper just doesn’t work for me, with or without any of my other materials. This is the only soft layer that I have to work with on top and like dn said, I think I am going right through to the N3 layer. I am not sleeping well, really quite sore in the morning, and very aware of the pressure up and down my body while side sleeping.
Sleepez recommends a 3" 20 ild blended talalay layer an top. He think that I need the 3" for total pressure relief for my size and side sleeping.
Mattressexpert recommends all natural talalay, (which is what they sell), 2" N1 or 2" N2 on top… says most people need just the 2" N1 for comfort/pressure relief.
I feel that I need to make a purchase as I am not doing well with my “comfort” materials as is. The bamboo/poly mattress pad messes with the latex support and the wool fleece does the same. I would like to also buy a Sleepez 4 way stretch cover if I ever complete this mattress to a point where it is somewhat comfortable.
Any thoughts about the two options that these companies suggested? Not sure if an N1 2" would feel like my 14-16 ild 2" dunlop (mostly synthetic).
Thanks,
Diane
Hi Diane,
You will need to decide for your own reasons what makes sense to you, as is always the case.
I’d first decide if Phoenix is onto something with respect to trying a soft poly foam on top. If you don’t prefer the feel of latex then all of the latex options won’t help.
In a similar circumstance, my approach has been buy everything. I would probably get both a 2" layer of N1 and also a 2" layer of N2. The logic I would use is below:
…you may, or may not, find elements of my logic helpful.
Actually, yes, very logical dn… if I can swing it, I’d love to buy both. Any thoughts about the difference between natural talalay and blended in the comfort layers?
dn, do you have a favorite place to buy latex?
I do like the feel of latex, but I haven’t had a comfort layer that has worked for me, so I imagine it would feel great if it’s right!
Where do you keep all of your discarded layers/materials? I think I might donate them soon.
Diane
Hi Diane,
For bare latex layers, I’ve been ordering from a Canadian vendor, sleepys.ca. If you’re in the USA, I’d think there easier choices.
I understand that natural and blended talalay feel the same. For the talalay I got, I did blended. Now that I think of it, blended would also be an excellent choice if the latex is from latex international, since they feel in the softer ranges the blended may be more durable.
My discarded layers are either stored, thrown out for the cheap poly foam, or going into a new mattress I’m making. I have enough for a second twinxl
Hi Diane37,
You will “go through” any topper to some degree because the topper isn’t the only layer that will compress so it’s more a matter of degree or “how much” it will compress. Both a thicker topper or a slightly firmer topper will isolate you more from the “feel” of the N3 below it but thicker/softer will have a softer overall “feel” and create a deeper pressure relieving cradle than a firmer thinner layer which will have a firmer feel on the sleeping surface. In other words … all the top layers of a mattress will compress to different degrees depending on the specific combination of layers.
The N1 would be more “resilient and “springy” than your 2” 14 ILD topper but the ILD would probably be close to the same and the thickness is also the same so if you aren’t doing well with the 2" Dunlop topper then a similar topper in Talalay may not be the choice with the highest odds of success.
My only caution with the 3" of 20 ILD (which would be a suitable layer based on “averages”) is that it would be fairly similar to the original N2 (which is somewhere in a range of 20 - 25 ILD) that you didn’t like and ended up exchanging (although as you mentioned you may have made the exchange a little too quickly). It would probably be a little bit softer than the N2.
As dn mentioned … it may also be true that you may do best with a less resilient layer on top of the latex in which case you may not prefer sleeping directly on any latex layer.
I think you’ve probably seen this but there is a list of latex topper suppliers in post #4 here. One of the advantages of buying a topper/layer from SleepEz is that they allow returns (less shipping) which is unusual. Sleep Like a Bear also has a return policy for toppers and Brooklyn Bedding has an exchange policy. Some of the others may as well but I’m not sure of the specifics. If you are uncertain about whether something will work for you then the return policy for a topper or layer may be an important consideration.
Phoenix
Sorry that this thread is never ending, but I have been figuring things out from your responses. Thank you so much.
When I originally decided to exchange my N2, I still had the stiff, thick cover on the layers, with the N2 at the top, then N3, then N4.
It had a severe hammock effect. I sent it back thinking that I needed firmer, so I got an N5. I guess my mid body was sinking and my upper body and legs were not and I had all kinds of aches and pains. After I had the N5, I read in the forum about the effects of a cover, and I ended up cutting it off. I could not even feel that the layers were made of latex, that’s how this particular cover affected the feel.
Therefore, I never really felt an N2 at the top of my mattress.
At this point, I am on this configuration.
top to bottom: Bamboo/poly mattress pad
2" 14 ild dunlop
1 1/2" wool fleece
3" N3
3" N4
3" N5
So this has helped a little more with pressure, but I still would like the support of all latex without the added materialsfor pressure relief. The mattress pad and wool fleece ruins the feel but I need them for now. Although I realize that down the line, I may need a thin piece of polyfoam in the mix, I do like the feel of latex,. I feel like I never had the right comfort layer.
After my testing and reading about other people’s layer configurations, there is no doubt that mine is too firm for me and I need to make another layer purchase. My dunlop 2" topper 14 ild is probably too thin or too soft or both.
I’m thinking about these:
2" 19 ild talatech topper.
3" 19 ild talatech topper
2" N2 or N1
3" N2
I think the necessity to add more materials to my 2" dunlop for p. relief ( and it still isn’t enough) shows that I may need 3 inches.
I’m so cautious now after all my mistakes that I can’t pull the trigger on another piece of latex. Ugh!!!
Hi Diane37,
I purchased their topper for my new bed and what I was told was they allow a 30 day return policy versus their bed which is a 90 day return policy.
Hi Diane37,
I’ve added the description and results of your current layering to the reference post here.
Your current configuration is a little too different from the others and a little too “random” (too many changes compared to the others) for me to read much into it but hopefully you are gaining some clarity about what may work for you.
If I was in your shoes and wanted to add another layer of latex I would probably consider trying 3" of blended Talalay in the range of 19 ILD or so and would make sure that you are comfortable with the exchange or return policy “just in case”.
This and the layers you already have would hopefully be all you need to find a configuration that comes as close as possible to what you need.
Phoenix
Thanks Phoenix,
I know my changes seem random, but I needed as much cushioning with whatever materials I have to keep me from hitting the N3 so hard.
I have been looking at the specs of some of the mattress configurations that lighter women have liked. Since I do not have a store nearby that carries PLB models, I can’t try them out first hand. But, it seems that many women like the beautiful for side sleeping comfort. I can add the top layer that the Beautiful uses to my layers and it seems that it would be very close unless there is a special quilted cover or something else on top. As I understand it, this mattress is:
3" active fusion N. Tal. 21 ild
3" Nat. tal. 24 ild (N3 I suppose)
6" 36 ild Nat. Tal 36 ild (N5 I suppose)
My questions:
A. Is there a noticeable difference in feel between a 3" - 19 ild blended talalay layer and the 3" - 21 ild active fusion Nat. Talalay ?
I’m assuming that these two materials are pretty close. I am concerned that the 3" 19 ild will be too soft for my husband who
is 150 lbs., (sleeps all different ways).
B. Are these 4 the same?
1. Active fusion natural talalay 21 ild
2. talalay GL fast response 21 ild
3. Celsion 21 ild
4. Rejuvenite 21 ild
C. What is the construction of the covers for the PLB mattresses?
Thanks,
Diane
Hi Diane,
For your research, this is one of the better comparisons I’ve seen of the firmnesses between the latex international products.
Hi Diane37,
There may be a slight difference in subjective “feel” but they will be very close in terms of their softness and pressure relief. a 2 ILD difference is normally below what people can detect and is inside the range of the firmness variations of a particular layer (which can vary by about =/- 2 ILD across the surface with blended Talalay).
B. Are these 4 the same?
Active Fusion fast response is what Pure Latex Bliss (a mattress manufacturer owned by Latex International) calls their Talalay GL fast response (which is the name used by Latex International) and Celsion is the old name for the same material. Rejuvenite is a trade name for toppers and pillows made by Latex International and doesn’t describe the material inside the topper but it’s probably the same given the ILD and in that case they would all be the same yes.
You can see the details here. It’s an unquilted stretch cover.
Phoenix