We are looking for an all natural latex mattress for a 300lb, 5’-10", back and stomach sleeper. We are planning to buy online due to a better price, more options, etc., most likely from SleepEZ or Foam Sweet Foam (FSF). However, we tried several SavvyRest configurations in the showroom and we prefer the feel of all Talalay over Dunlop and Talalay combo. We understand that Dunlop has a better support factor but are wondering if we could maybe get away with 4 x 3" all Radium Vita Talalay as follows:
N7 / 32 ILD
N8 / 38 ILD
N9 / 44 ILD
N9 / 44 ILD
or
N7 / 32 ILD
N8 / 38 ILD
N8 / 38 ILD
N9 / 44 ILD
Alternatively, FSF recommended to go with Dunlop and Talalay for the top layer only:
We are also considering adding an additional layer, if necessary. FSF offers a 5-layer configuration or we could add a topper to a SleepEZ 4-layer mattress. For the fifth layer / topper we are considering either 32 or 24 ILD Talalay or Talalay GL.
Both FSF and SleepEZ are site members here, as you’re probably aware, which means that I think highly of them and their advice, and I wouldn’t hesitate recommending them for your consideration. They both also have much experience with those in a higher BMI range.
Localized testing, especially with the special challenges of a higher BMI, is extremely valuable. Savvy Rest uses good quality natural Talalay from Radium. If it helps you in comparing what you may have tried in the showroom versus your own creation, the firm Talalay from Savvy Rest is generally around N8, and the medium is around N7. The soft is around N5, but from your configurations I don’t think you looked at anything using that layer.
There’s certainly no reason you couldn’t choose an all-Talalay mattress. The differences in compression modulus you spoke of will be less evident with higher ILDs, and also less evident in the lower support layers of the mattress. Both Talalay configurations you listed would certainly be in the firmer end of the spectrum, and generally provide enough layering for someone in your BMI range. Your first configuration would lean a little more toward a firmer “deep support”, but both would be supportive.
With the FSF, I always recommend to strongly consider the recommendations of a manufacturer, as they are best suited to put forward choices that they believe will give you the best chance at success, and what they present will also be combinations that they are most comfortable making with the componentry they offer. The FSF combination you presented would for most people have a firmer overall comfort than the similar ILD all-Talalay configuration you listed.
There’s a few posts that describe a similar situation to yours, specifically post #2 here and post #3 here (and the posts it links to ) that you may find useful.
You’re choosing between good quality materials, so I would lean toward what you’ve personally tested and liked and try your best to approximate that, as nothing can replace your own careful and personal experience. I would also make sure that you are completely aware of any company’s layer exchange/return policy, should things not turn out as well as you had hoped.
I’ll be interested in learning of your progress and any decisions you eventually make.
Thank you for the prompt reply, Phoenix. It is very much appreciated.
Since all of the configurations presented previously seem to offer enough support for the weight, I think we would prefer to go with the softest option in all Radium Talalay
N7 / 32 ILD
N8 / 38 ILD
N8 / 38 ILD
N9 / 44 ILD
We’ll go to the store again this weekend for one more test, just in case.
I read through the posts and links that you directed me to. Thank you. I understand the general principles regarding durability/longevity but would like to have a more concrete idea of what would be the actual durability/longevity difference between the preferred above configuration and the previous firmer configurations in our case? Is the durability/logenvity difference significant or negligible?
We actually did try a soft SavvyRest topper in ~N5 / 17.5 ILD Talalay but it seemed too soft. We like the idea of a softer topper on a firm configuration due to arthritic joints which is why we are considering adding the fifth layer or a topper.
For comparison, we currently use 3" Tempurpedic topper (general consensus seems to be that the Tempur material is 15 ILD, 5.34 lb/ft3). The topper seems to bottom out in the hip area but feels good on joints, knees etc. However, it sleeps too hot and can get uncomfortably hard on the surface if the room is colder (and we like to sleep in a colder room)…
Do you think ~N6 / 22-27 ILD Talalay or Talalay GL or Puralux as the fifth layer or topper would work considering our weight?
Alternatively, would doubling up on N7 / 32 ILD Talalay as a fifth layer or a topper soften the overall feel? If so, by how much?
Even the best engineers in the industry can’t predict mattress durability, as this is an incredibly complex question. But I have some good information in post #4 here and the posts that are linked therein. Between the two configurations you mentioned, I would expect them each to have a very similar “comfort life”.
The uppermost layers will have the most dramatic impact on your perceived comfort, and as you mentioned you can always add a topper. Deferring toward alignment, as you are, is a good choice.
The feel of a memory foam topper will be quite different from latex, and the memory foam ILD can be misleading, as there are different protocols for measuring this and as you’re aware it changes with temperature and humidity.
An N6 topper certainly might be a good choice for you, and probably a better choice than the N5. The Puralux would have the slower recover properties of memory foam in a latex, and the Talalay GL (slow recovery) from Talalay Gloabal is no longer produced. Using a second layer of N7 would simply be a firmer surface feel as compared to the N5, and would be a choice if you were desiring a bit more of a “tight” or “crisp” surface comfort as compared to the N5. Two layers of the N7 would make the surface comfort a bit softer, but it wouldn’t be as noticeable as the N5. In the end, only your own careful personal testing will be able to tell which layer, if either, would be more appropriate. For your BMI, a 2"-3" topper would most likely be appropriate.
I thought anything under 32 ILD is off limits to us due to our BMI. If we can use the N6 / 22-27 ILD as a topper or a top layer, that would be great.
It may be even better if we could skip the topper (they can be cumbersome and slide around) or an excessively thick mattress all together and do:
N6F / 27 ILD or N6S / 22 ILD
N7 / 32 ILD
N8 / 38 ILD
N9 / 44 ILD
Or are we pushing it and it is better to stick to the previous, firmer configuration?
Thanks again for your patience and excellent advice.
Some manufacturers may advise those guidelines with their componentry, but there wouldn’t necessarily be a reason that you couldn’t use a topper in the upper-20s ILD range when combined with higher ILD materials beneath. I wouldn’t generally recommend an ILD in this upper 20 ILD range for the deeper support core for your application.
[quote]It may be even better if we could skip the topper (they can be cumbersome and slide around) or an excessively thick mattress all together and do:
N6F / 27 ILD or N6S / 22 ILD
N7 / 32 ILD
N8 / 38 ILD
N9 / 44 ILD
Or are we pushing it and it is better to stick to the previous, firmer configuration?[/quote]
A good latex topper will tend to stay in place quite well due to its mass, non-skid covering commonly used on the bottom of the topper encasement, and the mattress pad/protector and fitted sheet being wrapped around both the mattress and the topper, so I wouldn’t have the “mobility” of the topper be a main concern in your decision-making process.
The best guidance I can give you would be to stay as close to the “specs” of the mattresses you’ve tested and have liked, and lean first toward good alignment and then perhaps tweak for comfort (if necessary). I generally would advise to stay closer to at least 12" or so for the base mattress for higher BMIs, as opposed to 8"-9" of some of the more common component latex mattress systems. Aside from your own personal testing results, I would tend to trust the advice you receive from knowledgeable manufacturers, as I mentioned in my earlier reply. If you decide to go with some of your original 12" configurations, there would be no contraindication to adding a 3" topper and having a resulting 15" mattress system for your application.
Progress update: based on our in store trials we definitely decided to go with the all natural Talalay. We prefer the feel of Talalay to Dunlop and are not bothered by the bounciness some people complain about.
The SavvyRest foam layers we played with at the store were marked with manufacturer’s markings and we were able to confirm that the SavvyRest soft is in fact Vita Talalay N5 while the medium is N7. We find N5 to be too soft while the N7 is too firm as a top layer so we think that N6S and N6F would be ideal.
However, SleepEZ does not carry all grades of Radium Vita Talalay (N3-N9 as specified here https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/66/NewRadiumILD1_2014-04-17.gif).Theyevencalledtheirsupplierbutarehttps://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/0https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/1https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/2https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/3https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/4https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/5https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/6https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/7
According to the FSF “Specifications of our Latex” at they seem to carry what may be the Vita Talalay N6 but FSF is about $500 more expensive even with a -$300 coupon. ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint:foamsweetfoam.com/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=30
Our plan B is to try switching to Talalay Global foam. We live an hour away from the Connecticut factory and they operate sort of a factory direct store Price / Warranty & Density Chart - Hamden, Connecticut - KTT Enterprises. I spoke to the owner today and we’ll be going there on Friday to try different configurations.
We also concluded that we would prefer a stretch knit cover as opposed to a woven fabric cover as used by SavvyRest. We are even contemplating a zippered stretch cover without (wool) quilting to get more direct Talalay feel. However, we are concerned about potential problems with the middle seam if we end up with a split top layer or with shifting layers due to less robust non-quilted cover material. Any advice?
So far we looked at the following sources for the cover:
I can confirm Phoenix’s advice to my split top layer latex issues regarding proper assembly was spot on. I will provide a more in-depth review post in a few days of my Savvy Rest, but I will say, it is critical to have all latex layers lined up pretty much perfectly, including the casing, with that split top or you can definitely have some issues (I have the pics too for proof – coming soon!)
Thanks for the reply. I just read your bump issue posts and this is exactly what we are afraid of, especially if we go with a non-quilted, stretch cover. Would be very interested to know if/how you resolved it… We are considering finding a compromise non-split top layer in one piece, just to be on the safe side.
For the record, the 3 layer SavvyRest Serenity (they only had Serenity at the store) combos that came closest for us are:
Person 1, 185lb
SOFT / Radium N5 / 17.5 ILD
FIRM / Radium N8 / 38.5 ILD
FIRM / Radium N8 / 38.5 ILD
comment: the overall feel was a bit too soft
Person 2, 300lb
MEDIUM / Radium N7 / 32.5 ILD
FIRM / Radium N8 / 38.5 ILD
FIRM / Radium N8 / 38.5 ILD
comment: the overall feel was a bit too firm
Our plan B with the Talalay Global / KTT foam is:
Person 1, 185lb
KTT N2 / 20-23 ILD
KTT N4 / 30-34 ILD or KTT N5 / 35-40 ILD
KTT N5 / 35-40 ILD
KTT N5 / 35-40 ILD
So far so good (knock wood) the complete reassembly of my mattress this weekend seems to be working. I’m cautiously optimistic as it has only been 3 nights but given the problem started after night 1 before…well fingers crossed. I will definitely make a full post about everything soon. Latex is HEAVY so split layers are definitely much “easier” to deal with (though honestly, I’m still a bit sore from all the latex “waving”). That said, for me personally, if I had a do-over, I’d go with 1 solid layer for everything unless I was in a situation where one person wanted something different than the other. Aside from the split issue, I’ve been very happy overall and can’t believe how much I like an all latex bed. Good luck on your journey!
Thanks for the update on your mattress shopping journey.
You are correct, the Talalay tends to have a more buoyant feel. This does subside a bit over time, and also of course varies by layerings. I’m glad you found a style of “feel” that you like.
Yes, those are the correct Radium designations for Savvy Rest. They list the N5 as about a 15-20 ILD, and the N7 as about 30-37. They are careful to note that these are approximate, but not official, numbers. But they certainly give you some good ideas. Your personal testing is the best judge, as you already discovered.
I spoke with SleepEZ and while they are able to acquire any foam that Radium produces (either in their direct container loads that they import or from their US distributor), the N6 level isn’t a popular choice for them and they choose not to offer it, as the variances between the N5 and N7 cover the spectrum for their designs much better and are applicable for a larger range of customers. Even if they made an exception and placed a special order for a specific foam layer, it would generally be about a five week wait for it to arrive from a container, and with the extra fees associated with that it wouldn’t be a good value for you, which is another reason why they choose to stick with the foam layers that they do.
I’m not familiar with the exact designations of the Radium layers that Foam Sweet Foam associates with the ILDs they list on their web site, so a phone call to them would be the best way to confirm that if you were curious.
I’m glad you’ll be able to take a look at some products at KTT Enterprises in person. KTT is owned by Nancy and Dick Coffey. Dick’s dad was one of the founders of what is today Talalay Global (Latex Foam International). KTT is a separate company from TG but maintains a close relationship with them, while also offering quite a few solid latex specialty products along with their latex foam layers for toppers and mattresses. They should be very helpful in your quest, as they are quite knowledgeable. Their entrance is a bit “hidden” on the backside of an industrial warehouse area.
Feeling the middle seam in a latex component system is not a common complaint unless the layers are “bunched up” just a bit when the product is being assembled, or the layers are quite dissimilar on each side. Because latex layers are quite “sticky” and they have a high coefficient of friction, they don’t tend to migrate much once they are in place. A thinner stretch-knit cover will certainly allow more of the softness of the latex to be felt (layers closet to your skin make the largest difference), and it is possible that switching from the stiffer Savvy Rest cover to a stretch-knit might make an upper layer of latex in the N7 or so ILD range feel softer to you as compared to the Savvy Rest configuration, realizing that any other layer changes below the upper layer will also impact your overall comfort.
While not a complete list, post #4 here in the Mattress Covering section has a few more cover suppliers.
[quote]For the record, the 3 layer SavvyRest Serenity (they only had Serenity at the store) combos that came closest for us are:
Person 1, 185lb
SOFT / Radium N5 / 17.5 ILD
FIRM / Radium N8 / 38.5 ILD
FIRM / Radium N8 / 38.5 ILD
comment: the overall feel was a bit too soft
Person 2, 300lb
MEDIUM / Radium N7 / 32.5 ILD
FIRM / Radium N8 / 38.5 ILD
FIRM / Radium N8 / 38.5 ILD
comment: the overall feel was a bit too firm
Our plan B with the Talalay Global / KTT foam is:
Person 1, 185lb
KTT N2 / 20-23 ILD
KTT N4 / 30-34 ILD or KTT N5 / 35-40 ILD
KTT N5 / 35-40 ILD
KTT N5 / 35-40 ILD
Person 2, 300lb
KTT N3 / 25-29 ILD
KTT N5 / 35-40ILD or KTT N4 / 30-34 ILD
KTT N5 / 35-40ILD
KTT N5 / 35-40ILD
If we were to go with a single top layer it would be KTT N3 / 25-29 ILD.
[/quote]
I’d use the guidance of the systems you tested on the Savvy Rest and then present that to KTT upon your visit and I would use their guidance as to what they think will most closely approximate what you tested and can put you closer to what you desire. While the ILD range of the TG and Radium foams are similar, they don’t feel exactly the same, as there are differences in formulations. Additionally, using a stretch knit cover will influence your comfort on top of the mattress, and KTT might also have on hand some different thicknesses for your upper layers where they may be able to offer up different combinations to address the softness you’re attempting to achieve.
Thanks for another very informative reply, Phoenix.
The big day is tomorrow – Nancy at KTT has 3" TG Talalay grades from N2-N5 ready for us. We spoke and emailed several times over the past week and she was extremely helpful.
The idea to try thinner different thicknesses for the upper layers and different cover materials as well as a possibility to fine tune the feel with zoning also occurred to me as I was reading through the forum. Thanks for these suggestions. Nancy says that she does have a few different types of covers (including stretch and woven) and I hope she’ll have some thinner layers to try as well.
You mention “differences in formulations” between TG and Radium Talalay. I would be curious to learn what the differences are, if you have time to elaborate on this at some point.
Thanks again for this great forum. I almost can’t stop reading it. The more I read, the more fascinated I am with the whole thing. My husband is not immune either. We talk latex at the dinner table and watch latex manufacturing videos for entertainment… Hope we won’t have to join some sort of Latex Anonymous… I mean, we are skipping work tomorrow (KTT is closed on weekends) to drive 1.5 hrs (without traffic) to get us some pure Talalay….
I’m glad they are being so helpful to you at KTT. Nancy is very nice there.
I’m looking forward to your comments upon the combinations that Nancy prepares for you.
The exact formulations and production processes are proprietary and closely guarded secrets, but the largest differences would be in the curing process and use of fillers (Talalay Global uses a small amount of fillers in their natural line and Radium does not). Both of the Talalay latex brands you are considering are high-quality and durable materials.
Venexiana,
I thought I would let you know that we ordered a SleepEz Natural Select 13" mattress today. I had a great conversation with the gentleman on the phone today. I have a post in my thread about decisions we made. I will keep the forum up to date once I get the mattress.
[MODERATOR ADDED: The thread thomask75 is referring to is here.]
Our mattress shopping was put on a long hold since our last post but we finally got an all Radium Talalay mattress(es) this summer. We now have a 12" split king (two twin XLs) comprised of 3" layers on an adjustable base. For my partner, the mattress is a success but I keep having very bad lower back pain.
Currently I (280lb, 5’-11", stomach/back sleeper) sleep on
N8
N8
N9
N9
Over the past several months, I tried every possible combination as we have a complete range of Radium Talalay layers from N6S to N9 between the two of us but the pain will not go away no matter what I try. It seems that I sink in too far and don’t get enough support under my lower back no matter what I do. I now use pillow under my lower back which helps a little with lower back pain but causes a bit of upper back pain. This is far from ideal.
I am thinking of inserting extra lumbar support such as this one Amazon.com between the layers or maybe cutting the layers into thirds to achieve “zoning”. Not sure what else can be done at this point.
Perhaps, Talalay was the wrong choice for me and I should have gotten Dunlop? Is it possible that latex in general is just not for me?
Hello Venexiana,
Thank you for reaching out to The Mattress Underground. Phoenix asked the we look into your post based on our extensive experience with both Talalay and Dunlop latex as well as both Talalay latex manufacturers. We apologize for the slight delay in getting back to you.
Lower back pain, short of injury or congenital condition, is primarily a result of poor spinal alignment through the lower back (lumbar) and hips. The difference between the Talalay and Dunlop process of producing latex does not have impact of the material’s support performance characteristics, especially at the higher firmness levels that you are using . We do not see the type of latex as a contributor to your ailments. While latex is not for everyone, it is the most adaptive and more accomodating comfort layer material used in a mattress at this time. As a support system, higher ILD latex is ideally suited material though we have found that the material mass of Dunlop latex has some features that we prefer over Talalay, that are not reflected in comparative ILD results. However, these differences are less perceptible in latex layers with ILDs 36 or greater, which is what you are sleeping on. Our view is that your ailments are not a Duunlop vs. Talalay process matter. That being said, most mattress designs for high BMI individuals in the US use a heavier gauge (13.5 oe less) pocketed coil support system. We believe this to be more a cost/price factor than the efficacy of the material.
Based on the configuration of latex layers you list, we find it curious that you feel that your lower back pain is coming from sinking too far in. The N8 and N9 layers are the firmest levels of latex that Radium Foam produces, with ILDs of 38 +/-3(N8) and 44 +/-3(N9). Your stated size should not sink too far in to these layers, as a back sleeper. We would think that the opposite would take place, i.e. your lower back/hips are elevated, producing improper alignment. In addition to your size, your body shape will become more relevant to your situation when sleeping in your stomach (which we assume you know leads to a whole other category of alignment issues).
The best way to assess your body’s posture on your mattress is to photograph it relative to the mattress surface. Most pictures of this type show the person lying on his/her side. While this is not your sleeping position, it may shed some insight into your body’s angle as it interacts with your mattress. We suggest you try this with your current layer configuration of N8-N8-N9-N9, and then try it with the configuration of N6-N8-N8-N9, and then sleep on the latter design for a week or more to see if your body acclimates to it. The latter configuration is a more progressive comfort/support design. A challenge with DIY designs is that it is indeed trial and error.
