Finally Checked out a Talalay Topper

Hi Clawdia,

A Talalay latex topper would provide pressure relief over a wider surface area than either wool or down because it will re-distribute weight over a larger percentage of the body surface.

Softer latex is generally more pressure relieving than firmer latex until the maximum weight re-distribution is achieved and beyond this more softness or thickness may have little benefit. Of course thicker and softer comfort layers can also have more risk in terms of alignment issues because the heavier parts of your body can sometimes sink down too far before being “stopped” by the firmer support layers.

Most people wouldn’t notice much difference between a single layer of 100% natural Talalay and blended Talalay but in the same ILD … the 100% natural is denser and has a higher compression modulus so would be more “supportive” while the blended Talalay is less dense and has a lower compression modulus and would be more pressure relieving … at least in most cases. The blended will also be more durable in lower ILD’s. Both of them have the same OekoTex certification for “safety” and offgassing.

Phoenix

Does that translate (roughly, no guarantees implied) that for someone like me, who is seemingly ultra-sensitive to softness and desirous of a bit of “sinking in” feel, the blended might conceivably be perceived as feeling softer than the all natural?

I know blends are Okeo-Tex certified - does that mean there aren’t petroleum products used in the blend, or just that they’re considered “safe”?

If the PLB ultra soft is something that I sank straight thru the 2", that to me says I should go to a 19 ILD. Would you think that a reasonable conclusion?

So many vendors give a range of ILD - is SleepEZ a good starting place to try to talk to someone about all this, and a vendor that might be able to provide a 19 ILD Talalay topper? I don’t want to go into the 20s for ILD on a topper, since I’m buying without being able to test and I certainly don’t want to end up with a topper that feels any firmer than the theoretical low ILD of the Dunlop mattress itself.

I’m giving SleepEZ top consideration at the moment simply because of their return policy for a topper. I think I saw somewhere that Brooklyn Bedding also had a return policy, but they only sell the blend - but if the blend might be perceived by this pseudo-princess feeling too many peas as “softer”, then perhaps I should give them more consideration.

I’ve had no contact with either other than a brief online chat with Mario at BB when I was thinking 2" would suffice, and found his answers to be a bit abrupt and not very helpful at the time (everybody has bad days, I know that). Is there someone else at BB with whom I could ask to speak, or is he “The Man” at BB?

Phoenix, if I’ve not mentioned lately how very much I appreciate your abundance of knowledge and willingness to be helpful, I’ve been remiss. It’s much appreciated!

I have the same question Clawdia. Ideally, how far into a topper should you sink? If one would draw a side elevation sketch of a person on a topper, that’s on a mattress, (given that the mattress gives decent alignment), should the person’s heaviest hip area sink all the way through to the mattress or say, halfway through the topper? I know you want to choose the thinnest topper that does the job… I"m guessing that you don’t want your hips to sink too fast and hard through to the core mattress. I’m thinking maybe a 2" 19 or 22ILD now. I think that maybe blended talalay will feel less bouncy with less of the feeling of the hard "push back of natural talalay.
I don’t know if this is true, but it is an inference I’ve made after much reading. I hope someone can give some advice as to far one should ideally sink into a soft topper for pressure relief from a firm mattress.

Hi Clawdia,

If the ILD was the same (or lower) and you noticed a difference at all then yes it would most likely feel softer. The lowest ILD of the blended is also lower at 14 than the lowest ILD of 100% natural (which is N1 and is in the range of mid - upper teens).

Radium has similar ILD ranges.

Synthetic latex is made from Styrene and Butadiene which are both petrochemicals (although they can be made from other sources as well). They are “safe” and are tested to the same standards as 100% natural talalay but not made from the latex rubber that comes from rubber trees.

Don’t forget that all the layers of a sleeping system compress together so what is underneath the topper will also affect how deeply you sink in. If you have a 2" topper then if you sink in more than 2" you aren’t “sinking through” the topper so much as sinking into all the layers together which would each be compressing different amounts. Layers closer to the surface and softer layers will compress more and contribute more to how much you sink in overall than layers that are deeper in the mattress or firmer. In other words … all the layers compress simultaneously and not “one after another”.

SleepEz has a return policy and I believe Brooklyn Bedding has an exchange policy for their toppers.

I would consider any of the members of this site to be knowledgeable and helpful and well worth talking to.

Phoenix

Hi Diane,

It really makes no difference how much you sink into any individual layer … only how much each part of your body sinks into the mattress as a whole and that you are in good alignment. The layers all compress together to different degrees no matter how soft or firm they are. There is more in post #6 here which may help you visualize this.

Phoenix

If it makes no difference how far one sinks into an individual layer, then that goes a long way towards what I’ve been trying to figure out. The fact that I sank what I’ve been calling “all the way thru” the 2" PLB topper doesn’t necessarily mean that in combination with my mattress, a 3" PLB topper would be too soft. So, I keep it in the “I’m thinking about it” category, because the 2" did feel good, it just didn’t feel quite enough in some way, and I was worried that being able to feel the mattress beneath my hips just had to be a bad thing.

Doesn’t sound like that’s necessarily true.
My alignment did still seem to be fine when lying on the 2" PLB topper, and I don’t think that topper being 3" would change the alignment for me - it didn’t seem borderline.

I think a lot of this is beginning to be above my pay grade, as the saying goes. If that PLB topper was truly an N1, and in the mid-upper teens, then it’d seem as though it had to be close to equivalent of SleepEZ’s next to softest, since they don’t recommend or stock their very softest Talalay, as I understand it.

I’m pretty convinced after a day of doing little other than thinking about this that what I do need is a low ILD Talalay topper - and since I’m doing my best to stay away from petrochemical things, it sounds as though I choose the all natural Talalay. With me, it’s a medical thing combined of multiple allergies and an apparently undiagnosable connective tissue disease - they know I’m sick, but don’t know exactly what’s making me sick. In cases like that, the less “crap” one is exposed to, the better, just on general principles.

Diane, you said, "I think that maybe blended talalay will feel less bouncy with less of the feeling of the hard “push back of natural talalay.”

I’d love to know if others have gotten any sense of that same feeling, or thought it a good description of the difference between the two. I’ve never tried blended Talalay, and the PLB 2" topper was so soft there was no sensation of push-back, so I’m not even sure I know exactly what you mean.

I’d like to get into bed at and have it feel so good I just sank right down into the mattress and smiled as I closed my eyes and snuggled in for the night. I can’t quite get there right now.

Hi Clawdia,

It would be a little softer than the SleepEz soft (SleepEz generally uses Radium Talalay which has a different firmness range compared to Latex International although they can use either on request).

I really wouldn’t worry about the technicalities because they can become very complex and meaningless past a certain point and I think you may be well on your way to “information overload” and focusing on some very complex information that may not be particularly relevant.

The effect of layering different ILD’s on top of each other in different thickness levels (in a mattress or with toppers) is that you can choose the degree of surface softness and pressure relief and then control the support characteristics of the mattress by changing the overall compression modulus of the mattress. When that makes sense to you then specs would have more meaning. If it doesn’t (which is what I’m guessing is the case) … then I would focus on the basics, what you want to change, and PPP instead of detailed specs that may take years or learning and experience before they have any real meaning.

In the end, if you are adding a topper it’s a matter of deciding on exactly what you are looking to accomplish and then recognizing that only your own experience will tell you if you are successful. The goal is to raise the odds of making a good choice but you won’t be able to remove the risk of making the “wrong” choice completely. You also have some complex health issues with your fibromyalgia etc and this means that every choice you make is more complex because you are outside the averages that may work for others that don’t have the same issues and some trial and error may be necessary because it may not be possible to accurately predict how you will do on any combination outside of your personal experience.

To bring things back to the more simple basics … if I understand correctly the two main issues are that you are looking for are better temperature regulation (more warmth) and you hope to add some pressure relief under your hips when you are sleeping on your side. Are these the main issues or “symptoms” you are hoping to correct or are there others as well?

Phoenix

I have a PLB all natural pillow and a PLB blended pillow and the all natural one is much softer. I am not sure if that helps. The all natural one has a lot more give to it. I use the firmer one on the bottom and the softer one on top. I would never go back to a down pillow. I was looking for pet beds and found these toppers for cheap. https://www.foambymail.com/LTX_T.html

The larger issue to me is the hip pain - and after a 2nd night sleeping on the featherbed on the Dunlop mattress, the hip pain is now gone completely. That makes me absolutely sure that something needs to be done to “fix” the mattress so it does more good than harm.

The other issue, that of temperature regulation, concerns me right now in that I don’t know if feeling cold while sleeping could be contributing to the hip pain.

I think the hip pain is a result of too firm a sleeping surface, but I’d like your opinion as to whether feeling cold could be a factor with the hip pain as well as needing pressure relief in that area.

The pain had gotten to the point that I was on the verge of seeing a doctor and requesting hip x-rays, and I’m one who stays away from doctors whenever possible, so you can gather from that the pain had gotten pretty bad.

I didn’t notice the hip pain the first month I had the mattress. The only thing I did notice was that I was sometimes finding myself sleeping on my back when I woke up, which is very atypical for me since I’m almost always on my side. At first, I thought it was because the mattress was so comfortable that I was even happy sleeping on my back; in retrospect, I’m thinking that perhaps I was becoming so uncomfortable while sleeping on my side that I moved to a back sleeping position while I was asleep, in search of relief from hip pressure.

Right now, I’ll confess to being frustrated and depressed - the last thing I wanted to do when choosing a new mattress was to pick something that increased my pain level, since I’m already a chronic pain patient due to the fibro and a connective tissue disease much like lupus. One reason I chose the bed I did was that Lee at Sleep Essentials advertised that this bed was the perfect choice for people with these exact problems.

Lee doesn’t sell anything other than Dunlop, and I have the softest he sells. With no return option on the bed (that didn’t exist after a day, much less after almost two months), there’s no help to be had from him, so I’m on my own here with the exception of help from you and this forum.

I also have hip pain and upper body pain from my mattress… I also had some hip pain on my old mattress of 20 years, hence my new mattress. I did not have it though on a few other mattresses I’ve slept on recently. I am frustrated as well, but hopeful that the right 3 inches at the top of the mattress will solve my issues. I have serious doubts about latex for certain builds. I don’t know about others, but, I think that for a light weight slightly curvier female, latex is tricky. As I’m debating in my head about what topper to add, the thought of going to a non latex topper keeps coming up. I know that I’d rather have all natural, but I need to be comfortable. There are different foams, which would have bad smells that could affect me, but maybe more comfortable. I just don’t know if the feel of latex will ever feel great for me. Even an expensive soft savvy rest 3" talalay felt “hard” on my body. My wool fleece topper will stay put under my jersey sheets, that I know. These are a few of the options I’ve found that I’m considering… thought I’d share the links in case you haven"t seen these.

  1. Memory Foam Mattress Topper, Latex Mattress Topper, Foam Mattress Topper

    In particular, the EverFlex™ 3-inch Soft Egg Crate Topper and the Natural Sense 100% natural latex Egg Crate Foam Topper.
    The company told me this is about the natural sense:80% natural dunlop 20% syn. and this: The firmness is rated lower due to the egg crate effect, these are cut from our n28 (Med) , and should still be fine for your application and weights. 125lbs. and 150lbs.

  2. http://invigocollection.myshopify.com/collections/toppers/products/simply-latex-2-mattress-topper
    and same one here: Bed Bath & Beyond | The Best Deals Online: Furniture, Bedding, Rugs, Kitchen Essentials & Moree

    The company told me this is 80% natural dunlop 20% and 14-15 ILD. Overstock has some reviews of it. It is returnable I believe.

  3. Bed Bath & Beyond | The Best Deals Online: Furniture, Bedding, Rugs, Kitchen Essentials & Moree

    This one has polyfoam and latex.

  4. Spindle Mattress

This is mostly synthetic and a little natural dunlop.

  1. http://www.ebay.com/itm/LATEX-MATTRESS-TOPPER-CUSHION-ANY-SIZE-ANY-FIRMNESS-UP-3-THICK-/200891704357?pt=US_Mattress_Pads_and_Feather_Beds&var=&hash=item7472df63fb

    This is Puralux dunlop. I think around 80% syn. and around 55K density.

I’m afraid of the synthetic blends because I’m sensitive to smells, but I have been told that the softer synthetic dunlop might have a
better, less bouncy, feel as a topper.

Even though I am in pain at night and for an hour or two in the morning, I still can’t decide on a topper. I just may buy an INVIGO because of the return policy. I am still trying to find a store within an hour and a half to try some other toppers.

I may start to look at more expensive wool wrapped latex toppers.

Hi Diane -
I’m sorry you’re having problems, too. I’ll admit there’s some slight comfort in knowing it’s not just me, but I wouldn’t wish this experience on anyone.

I had slept on Dunlop before - my father had one of the old Sears Dunlop mattresses bought in the 1960s, and it was still a fine sleeping bed when he died in 1999. For years I begged him to let me have his bed when I went home for an overnight visit, because it was the most comfortable bed I’d ever slept in. So it was natural that I’d think Dunlop would be the answer for me. My mattress is the softest Dunlop I could find - a 19-23 ILD six inch core with three inches of 16-18 ILD natural latex as a comfort layer, and specifically advertised for those with fibromyalgia or lupus or similar pain problems. There’s been some talk here on the forum about some Dunlop density not seeming to be as low an ILD as advertised, but since that’s all a big unknown, all I do know is that anything I try in the way of latex has to be Talalay at this point.

That’s interesting that you thought the soft Savvy Rest was still too firm - what I found with the soft PLB 2" topper was that it was so soft I was going right through it. Of course, it wasn’t on my mattress, so it’s hard to know how adding a 3" very soft topper would end up making the sleep system as a whole feel.

With my medical problems, I really want to stay from any petrochemicals. I know a featherbed will alleviate the pain, but it isn’t as good for my alignment, and completely hides the feel of latex. I used egg crate foam pads in the past, and didn’t like the way they felt. Of course, that was years ago, and I’d hope they would be better these days.

Since I don’t know if a Talalay topper is really going to be the answer for me, I feel restricted to ordering a Talalay topper from SleepEZ, simply because they do, according to Phoenix, offer a return policy. I can’t afford to pay another $500 for something that proves not to work, and be stuck with it. After trying that ultra soft PLB topper over the weekend, and realizing I was sinking right thru it, I don’t know what ILD to try from SleepEZ. In spite of my telephone-phobia, I’m going to have to call them and hope Shaun can offer an educated opinion on what he thinks I should try.

The only thing I know will work is a featherbed - which to me would mean I just wasted $1800 on the Dunlop mattress - but at least I know there’s one way to be more comfortable even if it’s something I don’t want to do. I’d have to buy a new one of those if I have to go that route, too, because the one I have isn’t in great shape. A really good one of those runs about $500, too.

If you run across a wool wrapped Talalay topper, I’d like to know where - the temperature regulation isn’t my biggest problem right now (unless sleeping cold is contributing to the hip pain, which I don’t have a clue about), but for someone who has always slept hot, it’s more of an adjustment than I’d expected.

I haven’t noticed pain at night, while sleeping (at least, not enough pain to wake me up), but without the featherbed the hip pain was increasing on a daily basis and lasting all day - to the point where just walking across the room was painful.

I think what’s bothering me the most is that I tried very hard to find the “right” mattress, and now after not quite two months it’s obviously not right the way it is. But when I chose it, it felt good lying on it for hours (and even for the first few weeks), and seemed to have been a good choice. It’s only in the last month that the pain issues have become so problematic that it’s obvious I have to do something, and I’m disheartened to know I have to spend more money to try to make the mattress something I can live with.

I just know I have to figure out something relatively soon, because I can’t keep on the way things are. One thing I learned - never buy a mattress from a store that doesn’t have a return policy that runs at least 60-90 days. Just an exchange policy wouldn’t have done me any good since I already bought the softest latex this store sells.

Life’s little learning experiences sure do come with a high price tag. Keep me posted on how your search for comfort progresses!

Hi Clawdia,

If the hip pain is gone with the featherbed then you may have already solved the problem. Is there is something about the featherbed that isn’t working for you?

You would probably know more about how you react to different temperatures and cold than I would but I would think so yes. There are many people where temperature can have a significant effect on various symptoms.

I would also be open to the possibility that joints that are outside of their neutral range of motion from a mattress that is too soft can also be the cause of joint pain especially if there are connective tissue issues.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix -

What isn’t working about the featherbed . . . for one thing, it’s several years old, the baffles aren’t holding the contents in place so the fill gravitates towards the edges and requires the bed be unmade, featherbed fluffed and allowed to loft, and then the bed re-made - every other day if not every day. So, I’d need to buy a new, better featherbed if that’s the solution I choose to try long term. I don’t feel as though my back alignment is as good sleeping on the featherbed as it should be, although any discomfort from that isn’t as disabling as the hip pain has been.

The other negative is that the featherbed keeps me from feeling like I’m sleeping on a latex bed, and I like the feel of latex. I may well have to give up that “like” in order to gain the needed comfort factor. Believe me, going back to permanently sleeping on a featherbed isn’t something I’ve ruled out at this point.

After having hot flashes for 20+ years, especially at night, I’ve been cold so seldom that I no longer have a clue as to how being cold while sleeping makes my body feel. We’ve lived in this house since 2008, and the first time I’ve had the heating vent open in my bedroom is in the past month - always before, I slept so hot that a room in the 60 degree range or even a tad lower felt just fine to me. So I agree that each person should be the best judge as to how temperature changes the feel of their body, but in my particular case that’s not necessarily true - else I’d not have had to ask if it were a possibility that it’s playing a role here.

One additional problem may be my body shape - unlike a lot of women, I don’t carry my weight in my hips, but more in the belly area, so even though I weigh in the 140 range I have pretty bony hips with very little padding. I also have broader shoulders than the female average. These are genetic factors, as my mother was the same.

The best plan I’ve been able to formulate so far is to try a soft Talalay 3" topper from a vendor with a return policy (that would limit me to SleepEZ, I believe, if I want all natural latex), and if that doesn’t work then buy a new featherbed and spend years regretting having bought my Dunlop mattress. I remain unsure what ILD would be best to try, considering how soft my mattress is supposed to be already, but I was paying attention to what you said about every layer playing a role in the system as a whole.

I just saw where you’d added:
“I would also be open to the possibility that joints that are outside of their neutral range of motion from a mattress that is too soft can also be the cause of joint pain especially if there are connective tissue issues.”

I know you’ve mentioned that before, but I’ve had this exact pain in the past from sleeping on surfaces that were too firm. Even lying on a firm bed away from home for just a few minutes has triggered identical pain. I certainly accept the theory of it, but knowing my body as well as I do, I find it difficult to believe that the mattress being too soft is the problem. (But I’ve been wrong before, more than once - hell, more than once a day sometimes!)

Did I mention I don’t deal well with failure? :sick:

Hi Clawdia,

While your current featherbed may be old … this points to the possibility that a new featherbed or wool topper could be the solution that works best for you. A featherbed or wool topper would likely have less effect on alignment than a foam topper because it will compress more evenly under different parts of the body and it may also have a more “relaxed” sleeping surface than latex.

This may be one of the tradeoffs that you need to make. You certainly wouldn’t be the first one that doesn’t do as well sleeping directly on a more resilient latex surface.

Again … your experience is outside the norm but it seems to me that better temperature regulation could also be pointing to the possible benefits of a wool topper.

Yes … unusual body types can also add more complexity to a mattress choice. Sometimes zoning solutions can help with unusual body types as well.

I don’t think you have wasted your money at all. You have a very high quality latex mattress that appears to only need fine tuning and it’s quite possible that any mattress you purchased may need this as well. At least you have the benefit of having a reference point that you know works so you know there is a solution to your “symptoms” :slight_smile:

Phoenix

I know you’re right - there is a benefit to at least knowing one solution that allows me to get a good night’s sleep, that solution being to slap a featherbed on top of the latex mattress. It’s just not the solution I wanted, but far better than no solution at all.

Since I’m totally unfamiliar with wool (except for the itchy clothes my mother used to force on me as a child), I’m more inclined to stay with feathers as opposed to wool, simply because at least I know the featherbed works well and buying wool might end up throwing money away if I didn’t like it or couldn’t adapt to it.

One thing I’ve realized too is that way back when I loved my father’s Dunlop mattress, I didn’t have the chronic pain issues that I deal with now, and I suspect that comes into play with the range of problems I’ve had with the Dunlop mattress.

I even took my whole bed apart today to get at the Latex Green stickers on the latex slabs just to see what they said - the support layer says 70-75 density, and the comfort layer says the density is 65. I guess that means it really is as soft as it gets, for Dunlop, except for some 55 density I’ve only heard as a possible future product.

Now there’s the question of whether to try a soft Talalay topper, or just be satisfied with feathering my nest, as it were. Something for me to think about for a while. I still plan to talk to Shawn at SleepEZ and see what his opinion is of my set of problems, since given my 'druthers I’d still like to feel like I’m sleeping on a latex mattress, but only if it can feel as good or better than sleeping on the featherbed.

I guess, too, that I can be glad I didn’t test PLB’s Beautiful model first - I might have bought it and had the same set of problems, and since it costs about twice what I paid for my mattress, I suspect I’d be feeling at least twice as bad about it all! :ohmy:

My daughter’s doc also has a latex mattress, and he told her today that latex gets hard when it’s in a cool room. I thought that was a quality exhibited by memory foam, but not latex. Which one of us is closer to right?

Hi Clawdia,

It may be worth trying to find a wool topper that had good return privileges so the risk is low if you don’t like it.

You are.

Phoenix

So far, I’ve not been able to find a wool topper that was returnable - maybe I’m looking in the wrong place. I’d be willing to try wool if I could do so relatively risk free (paying for return shipping is in my range of “relatively risk free”). I’ll keep looking.

Thanks - it’s nice to be right once in a while. :lol: Glad it was my turn and not the doctor’s, this time.

Hi Clawdia,

I believe that St Peter Woolen Mill has a return policy if you’re not satisfied and Snugfleece does as well (I would confirm the details of both).

Phoenix

Thanks, Phoenix - I’ll check those out.

Last night was the 3rd night sleeping with the featherbed between me and the latex, and the hip pain is still gone - that’s a really good thing!

Hi Clawdia,

That’s great news … so far so good :slight_smile:

Phoenix