This is a great website with lots of information. I am so glad I found it. Thank you so much for all the info and for being so thorough answering member’s questions and their concerns.
I did read many articles already, including “How to look for and find the best mattress … for YOU! READ FIRST” and many other links listed in the article, as well as members questions and answers on topics in my interest.
Being born in Europe, we are used to sleep on harder foam beds. We are over 50 now and we finally purchased our first Dunlop latex mattress. We made bad judgment and purchases before; a memory foam bed from Value City was our latest mistake. All my husband’s lumbar disks are herniated and bulged. I have lower back pain as well, even though I was not at the doctor with my condition yet. I might have something as Sciatica, while I had sitting job all my life and ended up with a pain @ the back of my legs while sleeping. We both toss and turn due to pain discomfort each night. It is time to feel good in the morning and not to be sore when we get up.
The state we live in does not sell any of Dunlop latex mattresses. I found only one store with Talalay mattresses and my husband and I tested some of their models. The beds in this store were much better than in the regular stores; however, they didn’t have any hard models due to popularity of soft mattresses.
We tried Sleep number bed and their hardest mattress as well, but we didn’t like the fact, that an air has to be pumped in frequently to keep the air bed hard. So we finally ordered our fist Dunlop latex mattress after 5 months of studying hard mattresses on the Internet. We have to order the second bed for our king bed frame and are little worried we won’t order the correct ILD again.
Our first Twin Dunlop latex mattress is Natural Sense from foamorder.com. It is a Pillow-top model with 3" hard top layer and 3" hard bottom core (ILD 45). We like the mattress; the quality is good for the price we paid. It smells tiny bit, but only if we sniff it, which does not bothers us. We also purchased the Adjustable bed series 400 bed frames. We like the massage option and the flexibility of adjustments as well. We just hope they won’t create a problem for the Dunlop latex while they are not slatted.
The new Dunlop latex mattress is little too hard for us. We both have no problems sleeping on it on the side; however, we both ended up with the back pain we used to have on our softer beds again. My husband is 6’-6" @ 270 lbs, I am 6’-5" @ 160 lbs. We can’t make a decision how hard should our 3" top layer be. We will use the 3" hard Dunlop latex for the bottom core for both our Twin beds. We were thinking about ILD of 31 Firm Dunlop latex. We like the fact that Dunlop is not as springy and that it should last longer. We have no idea what the difference between the different ILD’s is, we assume the value solely based on your very informative web site, your mattress forum and another forums on the Internet.
Thank you in advance for advice and/or recommendations.
Unfortunately there are so many variables of body type, sleeping style, physiological condition, and preferences, that there is no formula that can “predict” which type of layering you will do best with except in very general terms or “theoretical” terms. This means that there are really only 3 ways to know which layering you would tend to do best with.
So while I can’t tell you “what” to choose (that should always be based on more detailed conversations between you and the manufacturer or retailer you are working with who have much more detailed knowledge of the materials they use and the options they have available than I do) … I may be able to help you with “how” to choose.
The first of these is carefully testing a mattress in person. I know you mentioned that you didn’t think there were any Dunlop mattresses available close to you that you could test in person but there may be some options that you haven’t found in your area and if you let me know your city or zip I’d be happy to let you know of any I’m aware of.
The second is to talk in more detail with a manufacturer or retailer you are considering who can help you choose a mattress layering that “on average” matches others in their customer base that seem similar to you. While you may not fit the “averages” that they use … at least this would put the odds of success much more in your favor.
Finally you can order a mattress where you can re-arrange or exchange layers so that if your own personal experience on the mattress doesn’t “match” what you are hoping for then you can either re-arrange layers or exchange layers for others that are firmer or softer.
If the first option is not available where you can test mattresses in person either as a purchase or as a guideline for an online purchase … then I would strongly suggest a purchase which are a combination of #2 and #3 where you can start off with a mattress where the odds are better that it will match what you need and prefer but where you can either re-arrange or exchange layers to fine tune it based on your actual experience.
A list of some of the manufacturing members here that sell latex (including natural Dunlop) where this is available is in post #21 here.
I also think that you may need more thickness in a mattress both to provide layering options and to accommodate your husband’s higher weight. You can read more about the potential benefits of a thicker mattress in post #14 here.
Layer thickness and layer softness work hand in hand to create the performance and feel of a mattress and I think that the combination of 45 ILD Dunlop and only having 6" of latex in your mattress would create a mattress that is too firm for the vast majority of side sleepers.
Our needs and preferences and the condition of our bodies also change over the decades and what once was great for us to sleep on may not work nearly as well a few decades later.
You may also have different needs and preferences because of your different body types so each of you may decide on different layering combinations. I would also keep in mind that foam gets firmer as you compress it more and latex gets firmer faster than other types of foam. This is called the compression modulus of a foam (also support factor, sag factor and other names as well) and Dunlop has a higher compression modulus than Talalay. This doesn’t mean it is “better” … only that it gets firmer faster and either one may be beneficial in certain designs or particular body types. Some people may need to sink in more and others may need to sink in less but in both cases it’s usually a good idea to use softer foam on top than 45 ILD because latex that starts off softer will get firmer as you sink in deeper and is very supportive compared to other foams. I would guess at a minimum that medium would be a better choice but again … thicker may work better yet because it can be more adaptive to different weights and has a greater “range” of compression than thinner mattresses.
Since you already have two “hard” layers … then it would make sense to use these as the base layer for both of your mattresses and then build on this with softer layers to “complete” both mattresses with softer layers.
In the large majority of cases this will be fine. While I tend to prefer a slatted base when other choices make it possible, it would usually take a combination of factors to create the conditions where mold and mildew with a latex mattress becomes an issue. You can read more in post #10 here. I also use a solid surface adjustable bed because we wanted the adjustable and any additional risk was worth it to us.
The goal is always spinal alignment and both mattress that are too hard and too soft can both cause issues in alignment for many reasons including that they can “tilt” the pelvis outside of it’s neutral range which in turn changes the curvature of the spine. Pelvic tilt in either direction can cause back issues. Excess pressure in some areas (like the hips) or lack of flexibility in certain joints can also cause the spine to twist which can also cause back issues. The goal is to have the primary support that “stops” the pelvis from sinking in or “tilting” too much in either direction and at the same time to have enough softness in the top layers to “allow” the bony prominences to sink in enough and provide the secondary support that fills in the recessed areas of the spinal curves and helps maintain their natural alignment.
I should also mention that Dunlop is not typically more durable than Talalay and in practical terms I would treat them as “equals”.
Hopefully this can give you some good ideas and some very knowledgeable people to talk with on the phone so they can add their suggestions and information to mine and both of you can start sleeping better very soon
Phoenix, thank you so much for your fast response. I am very impressed once again.
Our zip is 46168. Thank you.
We do have 90 day option of mattress layers exchange with the foamorder, we just do not like to return items. We would like to be good customers and happy buyers in the same time. I realize it might not happen this time. The salesperson didn’t give us recommendations due to our back problems. We understand him not wanting to be liable for his recommendations. He was very nice otherwise, we were pleased with him. We will try to talk to someone else next time while placing an order for the second Twin mattress and ask for recommendation based on average as you pointed out. I realize not everyone goes on the Internet and does a research what would be the best hardiness/softness. The ones I read about bought hard mattresses, some even like their ILD 45’s, which is too hard for us now. We were shocked by ourselves that our sleeping needs are so much different after 25 years long craving for hard beds.
I’m glad I asked because there are some options in the general Indianapolis area within reasonable driving distance where you can test latex. They are listed in post #2 here.
I understand this as well and manufacturers generally don’t give specific “recommendations” because there is no way to know for certain how well someone will do on particular layering but most of them will provide you with “suggestions” or information about the more typical choices that others of your height and weight may tend to do better with so it would be more in the realm of guidance.
I think it would be rare that most people who were typical side sleepers would do well with 6" of 45 ILD Dunlop … even in their “younger” days … and those who say they liked it would be exceptions IMO.
“Hard” beds are just not great choices for most people (and too soft is just as bad in most cases) and the ideal tends to be firmer core layers with enough softness on top that there is good pressure relief and conforming or “secondary” support. At least you have some good options to test latex nearby which can give you a better sense of what you may do best with and that can act as a reasonable guideline for your second mattress.
We visited couple of the listed companies months ago. I didn’t know about some of them while they do not list exactly what their mattresses are made from and they didn’t show up while Google-searching.
www.maymattress.com/AboutUs/tabid/668/Default.aspx I was in the warehouse/store today. They have way much better foam selections than any other store in central Indiana. They have examples of what foams are inside of the mattresses and Larry is ready to customize your bed to your liking, i.e. making the mattress less high, putting foam inside to make the mattress softer or harder. These mattresses do not have zippers, however they are nice quality and they are reasonably priced comparing to other foam mattress stores.
They have also a nice selection of different foam pillows and cooling/heating pad with remote. I wasn’t aware of their special offer of $9.90 Memory foam pillow and therefore I didn’t get any; but, I would while I tested them.
And I forgot to mention they will give you brochure to take home, this is what I call business.
My husband was in the www.holderbedding.net Anderson store and he didn’t like that the store appealed dirty (i.e. carpets) to him, though all the mattresses were clean. The mattress he tried was way too soft and they didn’t have any examples of what is inside of the mattresses. Also this is not the best area to be driving around.
As you pointed out, we are not as young anymore and have different physical requirements we didn’t use to have 10-20 years ago. While purchasing mattresses before, some of them felt good laying on in the stores. They were the hardest we could find at the time of purchase, but felt wrong already after couple of months of ownership; they ended up being too soft for us and not a good quality material, even though we did buy more expensive mattresses from different local stores. My husband’s back pain is many years old problem and he was the first one to complain about the wrong purchase we made again 5 years ago. Therefore we are so picky of what to buy. I am so glad there is Internet and that we can order from another state as California that have much wider variety of natural mattresses due to the wide variety of population from Europe, Asia… and therefore different sleeping habits and requirements.
One thing we don’t like is the salespersons do push buyers to purchase their products they sell, ignoring our material preferences and some even make untrue claims about Dunlop just to sell what they have in stock. It is a tactic that turns my interest away from purchasing anything at all.
The Foamorder is a manufacturer and they have stores in California selling beds as well. We really like their prices. If the order is over $1200, the shipping is free. There is 15% discount on order with a code listed right on their web site. I noticed the discount names change based on the months or holidays; however, the percentage seems to be always 15%. The only thing I didn’t agree with was their vacuum-sealed shipping on Dunlop latex. We asked for regular shipping and our mattress was folded in half and shipped in a cardboard box. Their warranty is 20 years and we were assured the vacuum-sealing won’t cause faster future deterioration of Dunlop mattress. I researched Australian and European mattresses and also in different languages as well and that is how I found that Dunlop should not be vacuum-sealed. Can you confirm this?
I agree with you on the side sleepers, they normally prefer softer beds. We are an unusual/rare exception to this matter and I believe it is due to the fact how we used to sleep for 25 years from the day one on this planet. My friends in Europe still steep on hard mattresses and do not complain about back pain while sleeping. Though, they do not own a house and do not perform hard physical work as my husband and sometimes even I do. The fact, that we drive everywhere with cars can also contribute to my back-leg pain (Sciatica) problem. I am just trying to say, my husband and I are Americans that wanted to sleep as Europeans, who have different lifestyles than we do. My husband and I have to forget about what we used to do.
If you would be interested, I can post few links for different bed styles. They are sold in here by couple of stores only. These beds use coconut husk in the core to better up the hardiness of the beds. I really researched a lot and asked around.
To end our current research, we agree that too hard mattress is not good just as too soft mattress. We will order medium 31 ILD and hard 36 ILD Dunlop to use over the 45 ILD Dunlop core. My husband keeps insisting on the harder mattress, we will see how that will work. If we won’t like it, we might exchange; however I am thinking to order another 3" layer and use it under the expensive Pillowtop mattress cover we spent quiet bit money on (it is not returnable and we knew it). I can let you know how it all ends up.
I’m wondering if you have an Ikea in your area as they sell a quality Dunlop mattress with 85% natural and 15% synthetic and it is what I would consider quite firm. It is called the Sultan Edselle and the Ikea warranty is also very good.
Good luck
Thanks for the heads up about Holder in Lafayette. Their new website is http://www.holderbeddinglafayette.com/ and I’ve changed it in the forum lists as well.
I think compression is better than vacuum but for short periods of time for shipping purposes it won’t do any harm but over extended periods I think it could harm and impress the latex yes.
I wish you luck with that. Sometimes things never seem to leave my mind no matter how hard I try and yet sometimes I forget what I did the day before
I would certainly welcome forum members posting links to mattress they particularly like. Coconut Coir or rubberized coir isn’t as popular here as in Europe but it’s catching on and there are a few manufacturers who use it here as well including Natura and Naturalmat with their childrens mattresses and SavvyRest uses it for their bed rug as well. I’ve never had the chance to sleep on it but I know it’s a very firm material (probably over 40 ILD).
I’m looking forward to hearing about how it all works out. I have to say that your new configuration sound’s a lot more “sleepable” than the one you had … but of course everyone has their own preferences.
Perhaps your husband will become a convert to slightly softer mattresses once he’s had a chance to sleep on it
Thank you for your suggestion. I did as matter research Ikea’s mattresses as they are hard. They do not have Twin XL size; therefore I couldn’t include them in my priorities. I like their very low prices and love their warranties. I did install Ikea kitchen cabinets one year ago and we all love it a lot, especially the price and warranty. We have to drive to Ohio to shop. It is a trip a like to do, I need a thick wallet to go there though while I would like to purchase a lot of stuff.
You are really the one to ask for anything and you are right on top of everything. Thank you so much again. I will not ask for non-vacuum sealed shipping this time. It makes sense what you said.
I will definitely let you know how we will end up. We will be placing the order for the second mattress tomorrow. I really like the fact that I can change the foams inside of the mattress cover. I think this is the way for us to go.
Here are some links to our national web sites with coconut husk core mattresses. As you mentioned they are latex impregnated for flexibility. I would love to put one under our mattress for better ventilation, I am just afraid it is not good idea at all while we have the adjustable bed frames. I had no idea Savvy Rest is offering them. I have few latex foam examples from them, they are really nice company. Knowing before what I know today, I would order from them. I like their customer service and the material of their mattresses as well. OK, now to the links:
Some of the mattresses type will be sold in here in the future, although it might take little time. I almost made an international order from the Segum, just didn’t like the warranty return options. I was searching for the mattresses for a very long time
I finally received the second mattress today. It took the FoamOrder 3 weeks to deliver it.
That is not that huge of an issue as something else.
The cover quality is as good as the first one, I am happy with the pillowtop organic cover. The problem is, they did send us dingy used damaged ILD 28 latex foam. I made a video unpacking it and I took pictures upon the discovering of damaged and not new latex mattress. I emailed Vanessa (she takes care of customer orders and/or questions) just few minutes after I opened the vacuumed mattress. I asked for a prompt replacement with new ILD 28 Dunlop latex foam. I hope she will email me back soon. I will let you guys know how it all ends up.
I am attaching couple of the images.
I fully respect your expertise, knowledge and experience and do not want to disagree with you. Could you please look at the more detailed images I posted links to in my new post? I understand defects and looked at the images, especially the bottom looks bad.
This latex foam does really look dingy right-away as I unzipped the cover. If it was not returned and used (which our almost 2 months old foams do not show any signs of usage), it was perhaps mishandled and damaged in the factory or in the store? There are way too many damages on it showing bad handling.
I like new things to look like new and if I pay almost $500 for one foam I expect it to look good, not dingy. I am sorry for being so picky.
Hi
I’m am finding this post very interesting.
Perhaps the look of natural latex could be compared to a free range hen processed by hand and not chemicals and machines.
I have read that natural latex is washed several times after being made to wash out bits of dirt and probably bugs as well to enhance the look. Personally I could care a less what it looks like so long as it doesn’t start to sag and is comfortable as described in the intended ILD.Cover it up and forget about what it looks like but if it starts to sag scream bloody murder.
I switched your posts to your original thread so they weren’t duplicated and to keep them together.
I looked at your more detailed pictures and they are probably a little more than average in terms of visual flaws but I really don’t think they are defective and would consider this to be in the normal range and I agree with the response you received.
I have also talked with other manufacturers that I know (a they also suggested) and they have all said the same thing that some shipments have more of this than others. It’s especially common with Dunlop and with cut layers.
Some manufacturers I know either have or are considering using covered layers not because they are any better (and they may slide more than latex on latex layers) but because they hide the “normal” look of natural latex and the crumbs and pieces that can come from cutting the latex from their customers who often don’t realize how natural latex can look. Others use these layers in their covered mattresses that can’t be opened … again not because they are defective or any worse but because they are well aware that they can create doubt where it’s not necessary.
Some layers in some shipments have more of this and some have less (again especially with Dunlop) but they are not a quality or performance issue.
That was a good idea to join both my posts together, thank you Phoneix.
We will accept the Dunlop latex foam with the larger tears and some grayish stained areas for now. We just slept on the new mattresses/foam combo’s first night. The ILD 31 seems to be still little too hard, you were right on the money Phoenix.
I emailed Mike again and received another response. All we want is to have first quality latex foam that is under warranty. Here is his response: “I cannot replace the piece under a warranty or defective issue. These images all constitute naturally occurring flaws. Even the small tear you show would fall into our description of small tears. This is warranted not to expand over time and we would replace it if it got worse over time. Yes some pieces are more perfect than other. This is normal as well. If you would like the piece replaced it may done be under the swap rules. The best compromise I can offer is you need to send the piece back and I’ll send you a new one with notes on the order (it needs to be almost perfect).”
We are little annoyed with the last sentence while it is clear there are damages done to the mattress either by a previous owner (which would fall under exchange policy) or by their staff handling the foam without enough care and therefore damaging it. This foam simple does not represent a first quality latex foam we paid a higher price for. FoamOrder has many certifications and statements on their web site covering first class material. This ILD 28 latex foam is second class material and shouldn’t be sold as new one based on their web site statements. Nowhere on their site is a mentioning about defects and damages. We really thought we will be getting a clean first quality product, which we did not. Going to ridiculous details, who knows, what is on this mattress while it is dingy and we cannot wash it.
Yes Phoenix, you are correct, some mattresses are sealed. We were looking specifically for zippable mattresses while we care what is inside due to bad experience with the sealed memory foam mattress we had just before this one. We just like good craftsmanship. Yes we are very picky and we don’t mind to pay more for a good quality product.
The reason for our decision to keep the latex foam for now is that FoamOrder’s customer service is informed about the damages and will warrant this latex foam for 20 years. If something would happen down the road, this evidence will protect us from being accused of damaging the latex foam due to our negligence.
We flipped the ILD 28 latex foam upside down and put the deep large tear towards my head. It shouldn’t be subject to too much pressure that way and therefore, the largest tear in the middle lumbar section is positioned slightly more off the heaviest body weight pressure. The widest tear is in the center off the foam width; however, it is not in the center considering the length of the foam. Another thing we worry about is a possible side effect of the daily movement of our adjustable beds; sold to us by FoamOrder as well.
jege41, if something would happen, I will scream bloody murder
I really do think that this is normal and not an indication of a foam layer that has been mishandled or used IMO. I think their offer is reasonable. Dunlop latex is just like this and this would be within the range of normal.
I just don’t think this is the case and again if you are at all concerned then you could exchange it for another layer that they hand select as they have mentioned. Did you pay a higher price than their regular price or compared to other suppliers? There are normal differences in prices between suppliers and some are just less or more than others. I’m not quite sure what you mean by paying a higher price.
Again … there is discoloration with natural Dunlop that is also normal. If you really are concerned though why not exchange the layer for one that they hand select as they offered? You can see the page they are referring to here.
I don’t think this has to do with craftsmanship because the layers that they receive are the ones that they sell to their customers. This has to do with how the foam is manufactured.
I understand … although if you still have nagging doubts about whether the foam was “damaged” I would probably exchange it just for your own peace of mind.
Thank you Phoenix., sorry for the late response, heavy rain last week made us little busy.
You got me Phoenix; I see the short sentence now: “All raw Talalay and Dunlop latex have naturally occurring flaws which include small tears, air pockets, patches, and changing surface textures.” I totally missed it as I was looking for some explanation. I am sure I am not the only one complaining about the quality. It just looks pretty bad comparing to the other 3 latex foams we received from them, the difference is big.
It was $480 for one 3" thick Twin long Dunlop latex mattress ILD28. That is not cheap; we were expecting a better material than from the Foam Factory or Foam by Mail. I can only compare what I can find on the Internet and what was being pointed out to me.
“Small tears” - it has hundredths of them. We don’t like them much, but we can overlook them.
“Air pockets” - has some, which don’t bother us at all.
“Changing surface textures” - I am not sure what is qualified in here. Maybe the cut out and glued in different foam portions to replace foam gone bad during the manufacturing? There are few of them and are overlookable.
The gray stains I am referring to are not discolorations. What we have is as someone would step on the latex foam or smear something dirty/black/dark gray against it, it is dingy, dirty on multiple places, not discolored.
This foam does have some discoloration as the other pieces, that don’t bother us either.
Cameras don’t always take a great detailed image of what our naked eyes see, this is pretty common problem of 2d snap shop vs. a 3D true color eye vision.
I know FoamOrder doesn’t make the foam, I meant by that by everything we buy or bought, that we like a good craftsmanship. It used to be normal to buy stuff and to be happy with it, at least for us. As the years come by, companies learned to sell lesser quality products. We have a hard time getting used to it, we are just an old school folks that produce good detailed work and expect the same from others. We will have to change, the world isn’t what it used to be anymore, too sad.
We are still testing the new configuration and I can say, I would like to have a softer top layer. Sleeping on the hard mattress reminds me very vividly how we used to sleep in Europe and how the beds didn’t spring while one or the other went to a bed later. I miss that, but my back doesn’t like it anymore. My husband is not talking about it much, just keeps complaining about his back pain. We will have to wait little longer for our verdict.
I just want to ask you, how are the ILD’s determined? Is it possible one 9" foam would be cut into three different 3" ILD’s?
I really wasn’t trying to “get” anyone … only provide accurate information
If you talk with many manufacturers … they will tell you that there can be significant differences between batches of latex they order and even individual layers in each order. As a matter of fact … you can see in post #2 here that one of the biggest reasons some manufacturers cover their latex (or are considering doing so) is consumer perception about the appearance of some latex layers that are perfectly good.
All Dunlop latex has a range of firmness across the surface and different surface “textures” as well depending on where in the layer it was cut from (the parts of a molded core that are closer to the mold will have a skin for example). These are not normally indications of “quality” or performance.
Not all Dunlop latex is tested for ILD but those that are have a range of ILD across the surface because Dunlop isn’t as consistent as Talalay. You can read more about ILD / IFD and how it is measured (or not) in post #6 here.
A single piece of foam can be zoned into different ILD’s yes either by using a certain mold with different pincore sizes or patterns or using various surface modifications or cutouts inside the foam or by fabricating the foam into certain sections and gluing them together.
Thank you Phoenix.
I very much appreciate your help and answers about all our questions. This forum is the best when it comes to resources and help about mattresses.
The FoamOrder’s web site is very hard to navigate and searching for specific words didn’t bring up this sentence. I did see this page before, however I didn’t read it in a detail while I learned about Dunlop latex mostly here and some more on few other web sites.
Your explanation about Dunlop ILD’s post #2 here filled gaps in my understanding. I asked the question due to a fact that while I cleaned up my pictures, I discovered that the 28 ILD and 31 ILD mattresses were cut from one 6" thick mattress block. It looks like FoamOrder gets Dunlop mattresses cut from originally 9" thick mattress blocks; based on how the foam looks like. I didn’t get this confirmed though.
If you’d like to see a picture, I did cut out the portion of the label from the picture taken and repositioned it and rotated to see if is the label cut was matching perfectly. These two foams feel almost the same and actually the “dingy” 28 ILD mattress is the uncut outside of the original mattress block. This confirms the mattress is new and that it was mishandled while being cut; and therefore it looks ugly. We shouldn’t order almost the same ILD mattresses while we can’t tell the difference much.
I will post a reply upon our future mattress exchange to a softer ILD Dunlop mattress. The only option is 25 ILD. I don’t know what to do while we do not like Talalay latex due to its springiness.
I don’t know of any Dunlop latex manufacturer that pours their cores in 9" molds. As far as I know … their cores and layers would come from cores that are in the 6" range (usually between 5.5" and 7" depending on the latex manufacture in the case of Dunlop).
Thanks for linking the pictures. I’m not quite sure what you are asking though or if you are just sharing your thoughts about what to do next?
A difference of 3 ILD would not be detectable for most people … especially in deeper layers or with Dunlop which would have a greater variation across the layer surface than that anyway.
Are you considering exchanging the scuffed or dirty layers. Did you ask them about what this may be?
