Help Arranging Layers

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
11

Phew… the change is complete. It feels much better. Only time will tell. I currently have the bed as follows:

3" 19 ILD natural talalay (on top of the casement, under the matress protector)
6" Split cores natural talalay 28 ILD hers / 32 ILD his
3" 25 ILD dunlop

It sounds strange but the matress feels different with that softer layer on the bottom. Maybe not so much on her side as the layers are comparable ILD wise but so far my side is certainly different. You guys are on to something with this. I’ll post an update in a few weeks provided I don’t make any additional adjustments.

Happy 4th of July!

12

Hi rictorjr,

That’s good news … and hopefully the improvement will remain over the course of the next week or two.

One other thing that may also be worth trying (but only if it’s necessary) would be to use the 32 and 19 inside the casing and put the 25 ILD Dunlop on the bottom outside the mattress cover. A separate layer will have a more independent response and can “act” softer than the same layer inside the cover (similar to a pillowtop design) so if you are still feeling too much of the firmness of the 32 ILD core with your current configuration “through” the topper then having the 19 ILD layer inside the cover may help with the transition between your top two layers and you would still have the extra “give” under the mattress with the separate Dunlop topper on the bottom.

I’m looking forward to your feedback on your new configuration :slight_smile:

Phoenix

13

[quote=“Phoenix” post=38993]
One of the fascinations with mattress design and theory for me is that it’s a such a great combination of art and science and that combined with the differences between people and their unique needs and preferences and the ongoing introduction of new ideas and materials means that the learning curve and fascination never ends (at least for me).
Phoenix[/quote]

Yeah, my DIY approach has certainly been interesting and I also find mattress design a bit fascinating as well. Having just about every possible ILD available in both 2" and 3" thickness (for the comfort layers) and having 28, 32 and 36 ILD split 6" cores (2x3" - not 6" thick) REALLY allows one to fine tune to their heart’s content and realize how subtle changes can lead to big differences. For me, my DIY project was more about the satisfaction of knowing that my final design could not be improved upon once I had tried every desired configuration and learned how the various layers interacted with each other. That, and I knew my wife would want a core that was approximately 1 level softer than what I ended up with on my side since she’s about 50 lbs. lighter than me and only weighs around 100 lbs (which makes most latex mattresses feel too firm for her).

14

Great news! Yeah, I definitely prefer the feel with the softer layer on the bottom. It’s a more “lively” and “springier” feel. That’s the best way I can describe it anyway.

15

Well, the 25 ILD on the bottom certainly gave it a different feel. Almost as if it nullified the transition between the 19 ILD top and 32 ILD core. However, I was waking up with my arms asleep depending on what side I was sleeping on.

I needed the thicker comfort layer. So, to alleviate the strange issue of a progressive transition side to side with the layers like this:

3" 19 ILD natural Talalay (on top of the casement, under the mattress protector)
3" 25 ILD Dunlop
6" Split cores natural Talalay 28 ILD hers / 32 ILD his

I cut the 25 ILD topper into 2 pieces and re-layered again this way. My pressure issues seem to have been relieved but my hips are still sinking in too much and I’m having lower back pain.

Time to eat some crow, I’m trying to get a layer exchange done for my side and going to the firm 36ILD core. Hopefully this will resolve my issues. If not I’m contemplating changing out the 25ILD Dunlop layer on my side and getting a 28ILD Talalay layer in 2 or 3" for my side only. The Dunlop definitely has a weird feel compared to the Talalay as a comfort layer. Almost like inserting a taut rubber sheet in the middle of the layers.

Do you think 3" will be too much to add. I’ll then have a 6" comfort layer… Trying to tweak this is definitely frustrating. I feel like I’m living the princess and the pea. My wife hardly can tell when I change anything unless it’s drastic. I feel every wrinkle in the sheet.

I appreciate your feedback.

Thanks

16

Hi rictorjr,

This is not an unusual comment when you use Dunlop in between Talalay layers because of the differences between the two types of latex (see post #7 here) and while any combination of layers can work well or be a preference for some people … it would be more common to use Dunlop either in the bottom layers or on top (depending on different people’s preferences) rather than in between Talalay layers.

I’m not clear on the difference between this and the combination in your first post which appears to be the same. I thought you had already tried the 3" layers with both of them on top.

It’s not really possible to know until you sleep on it because of all the variables involved and your sensitivity to smaller changes but a 3" layer of @25 ILD Dunlop and a 3" layer of @28 ILD Talalay will be “somewhat” similar in terms of firmness but because of your experience with 6" of “softer stuff” on top which didn’t seem to work for you in either combination it may be worth considering a little less thickness in the transition layer to keep you closer to the firmness of a higher ILD support core.

I would probably only make one change at a time as well so that you can evaluate things “one step at a time” rather than trying to figure out the combined effect of two different changes (the 3" layer and the support core firmness) which can be more difficult to assess.

Phoenix

17

Phoenix,

The only difference is that I’ve split the Dunlop layer as the side to side transition was weird. It made the soft side only soft on about 2/3’s of her side and then it got firmer towards my side. I did try this combination and it was best for pressure relief but I was mostly trying my wife’s “soft” side at that point because it was so comfortable I wanted it to work. Realistically my alignment was bad so I went back to my “firmer” side, which still seems to too soft for my hips. I might even consider zoning if I collect enough different layers… I can’t seem to find a happy medium between my shoulders and my hips.

With the Dunlop on the bottom the 3" 19ILD on top is not enough for me, that’s why I reverted back. Two days of dead arms waking up was enough. My plan for now as you’ve suggested is to get the firmer core and use what I have to make adjustments (if needed). Then down the road if necessary maybe I’ll switch out the 3" 25 ILD Dunlop for a 2" 28 ILD Talalay. The 2" is cheaper and I don’t want to be buying latex forever!

Thanks!

18

Hi rictorjr,

OK … that makes sense to me.

There is some information here about zoning in post #11 here that may be useful.

That all makes good sense to me as well :slight_smile:

I’m looking forward to your next “report”.

Phoenix

19

In regards to what jkozlow3 was talking about, with a softer layer (within reasonable thickness as Phoenix said) underneath similar to the PLB latex covered foundations I have to wonder if the physics aren’t somehow similar to the construction of an innerspring. In a lot of spring units it seems like the actual design of the spring itself is an hourglass type shape so the coil is firmest in the middle and as weight is applied (in theory) would evenly begin compressing the wider/softer portion of the coils at the top and bottom approaching the firmer tighter wraps in the middle of the coil. Wouldn’t softer over firmer over softer latex roughly mimic the same action? (since the upper padding in an innerspring is mostly for comfort, using the springs beneath to provide the support in place of a latex core)

20

Hi brass,

An hourglass shape has a variable spring rate so as you mentioned it has some initial softness with compression and then will become firmer much more rapidly as the firmer section of the spring kicks in.

Foam is a little bit different because foam materials absorb and distribute more of the compression forces over a wider surface area as the compression forces goes deeper while springs have very little hysteresis (the ability to absorb energy) so the force that goes out the bottom will be distributed over the same surface area as the force that is applied to the top (although of course this also depends on the type of spring and whether it has helical coils that attach the springs together).

With softer layers of foam underneath firmer layers then they will have less effect on how much the foam in the upper layers compresses and the firmer layers will “bend” into the softer layers more than “compress” into them. It would be similar to what is called a dominating layer where you have a firmer layer over a softer layer. This allows for a firmer sleeping surface with less of an “in the mattress” feeling but still provides some “give” under the mattress that can help with pressure points. This is one of the reasons that a box spring with springs is often used under an innerspring mattress and is an essential part of the design and performance of the “sleeping system” in terms of PPP. It’s the difference between what I call “sinking in” (with the foam surrounding you) and “sinking down” (where the upper layers are more bending into deeper layers that are softer and you aren’t compressing into the top layers as much).

There is more about this in post #16 here about variable spring rates and in post #2 here about the differences between the response curves of latex and innersprings and in post #2 here and the other posts it links to which talks more about dominant layers. It’s also similar to a mattress that is used on a flexible slatted or tension adjustable base (see post #2 here and post #3 here about box springs, flexible slat systems, and foundations).

All the layers and components of a mattress compress and interact together and will compress to different degrees depending on the layers and components that are both over and under them and these differences in the relative compression of each layer are part of what creates the “feel” and response of the mattress.

Phoenix

21

I want to thank you for starting this thread; I’ve found it very informative! I just got my new Flobeds latex mattress, and am in the layer-arranging phase of my purchase. I’m going to try out a softer layer on the bottom because one issue I do have is that it feels “dead”. I went with Talalay because of the bounce, but I guess I like more spring than the average person (possibly not surprising since I’m coming from a full-motion waterbed). I actually woke up several times on my first night feeling a bit anxious because of the utter lack of movement.

22

Hi Stardustgirl,

Transitioning from a waterbed can take quite some adjustment but FWIW there are many people who have made the same switch from water to Talalay latex and been very happy with the switch.

It may take some time to get used to a new sleeping system that is different from what you are used to so I would just add a caution that it’s usually better to “do nothing” for the first couple of weeks or so (if possible) before making any changes or experimenting with different combinations so that your body has a chance to “catch up” with some of the differences before you start making any further changes.

Phoenix

23

Stardustgirl,

You may not have a lot of success with a soft layer on the bottom of your Flobed unless you put it outside the mattress (i.e. a 3" topper in a separate zippered cover underneath the Flobed mattress). The reason I say this is that the Flobed design only uses (3) 3" layers + the convoluted layer. To make a softer layer work with the Flobed, you may be sacrificing a lot of support without a 4th 3" layer. For example, you could end up with the following from top to bottom:

Inside the Flobed mattress:

2" Convoluted
3" 19 ILD
3" 32 or 36 ILD
3" 19 ILD

This might end up being too soft and not supportive enough, but you won’t know until you try it. If the above configuration does work, you may need a support layer that is firmer than you would otherwise need. For example, if 6" of 28 would have worked well for you, you may need 3" of 36 instead.

If you added a separate 3" 19 ILD topper beneath the mattress, you could still have a 6" support layer with the Flobed. Just something to keep in mind. But as I’ve learned over the past several months of DIY configurations, theory will only take you so far. There is no substitute for actual trial and error.

Edit: Phoenix posted while I was typing and I definitely agree with what he said. I’ve made changes too quickly on several occasions before giving my body time to adjust. Sometimes you know right away that a particular configuration will simply not work. Other times, I’ve learned that if a particular configuration is “close” to give it a week or two.

24

[quote=“jkozlow3” post=39381]

Stardustgirl,

You may not have a lot of success with a soft layer on the bottom of your Flobed unless you put it outside the mattress (i.e. a 3" topper in a separate zippered cover underneath the Flobed mattress). The reason I say this is that the Flobed design only uses (3) 3" layers + the convoluted layer. To make a softer layer work with the Flobed, you may be sacrificing a lot of support without a 4th 3" layer. For example, you could end up with the following from top to bottom:

Inside the Flobed mattress:

2" Convoluted
3" 19 ILD
3" 32 or 36 ILD
3" 19 ILD

This might end up being too soft and not supportive enough, but you won’t know until you try it. If the above configuration does work, you may need a support layer that is firmer than you would otherwise need. For example, if 6" of 28 would have worked well for you, you may need 3" of 36 instead.

If you added a separate 3" 19 ILD topper beneath the mattress, you could still have a 6" support layer with the Flobed. Just something to keep in mind. But as I’ve learned over the past several months of DIY configurations, theory will only take you so far. There is no substitute for actual trial and error.

Edit: Phoenix posted while I was typing and I definitely agree with what he said. I’ve made changes too quickly on several occasions before giving my body time to adjust. Sometimes you know right away that a particular configuration will simply not work. Other times, I’ve learned that if a particular configuration is “close” to give it a week or two.[/quote]

Thanks for the suggestions! I did try out the S/M/S combo and was really happy with it, even with the layers all being inside the mattress cover. I’ve got the 100% Natural Talalay, which has a 22ILD for their soft layer, according to the FloBeds site so that setup is

2" Convoluted
3" 22ILD
3" 28ILD
3" 22ILD

It looks crazy soft, but I’m pretty small and back when I was looking at the options on FloBeds site (you can get a 4 3"layers version of their bed), I was told I’d not really get any benefit from more than 3 layers at my size.

I currently have it set up as 22/22/28, which Dewey suggested as I’m still needing to tweak that “cush” a bit (probably a thin topper will fix that, but that’s a later-on fine-tuning bit). That arrangement is comfy too, but not as springy as the 22/28/22, so I’ll likely go back to that one as it was my favorite. My alignment seems OK with both of those. I don’t have any back issues. With the softer layers I can pretty much leap out of bed with no stiffness. With firmer layers it was like I was lying on a plank, and found myself lying on my back stretching out as much as possible to get away from the hard surface (I’m a side-sleeper, so that was an act of desperation) :lol: I was also very stiff and mostly rolled out of bed and moved slowly. I had planned on giving each arrangement a week try-out, but the ones with “firm” (32ILD) made me so uncomfortable that I ditched them right away.

It’s amazing what a change that softer bottom layer makes! I would not have thought of that had I not read it here. I’ve seen it suggested as a way to change the firmness of the layer above it, but for me the bounce / spring / life of it is the key.

25

Hi Stardustgirl,

Thanks for the update and I’m glad to hear that you’ve found a combination that seems to be working well for you (or two combinations).

I think that the softer layer on the bottom may have a “feel” that is more like the waterbed you were used to so it’s not all that surprising that you like it although based on “averages” it would be softer than most people would choose.

I appreciate that you took the time to share your feedback :).

Phoenix

26

[quote=“Phoenix” post=39313]Hi rictorjr,

OK … that makes sense to me.

There is some information here about zoning in post #11 here that may be useful.

That all makes good sense to me as well :slight_smile:

I’m looking forward to your next “report”.

Phoenix[/quote]

So, I’ve been on the firm core for a week or 2 now. Pressure points seem to be at a minimum. The firmer core makes the top layers seem softer somehow. The ways these layers interact with one another is insane.

I think I have a winner although sometimes I still have a back ache from time to time depending on how long I’m in bed. I may need to get that softer layer. I might get 2 or 3" of 22ILD Talalay to replace the 25 ILD Dunlop as 28 ILD Talalay may be too comparable in firmness. I’m going to wait at least a month and see how it pans out.

27

[quote=“rictorjr” post=40233]

So, I’ve been on the firm core for a week or 2 now. Pressure points seem to be at a minimum. The firmer core makes the top layers seem softer somehow. The ways these layers interact with one another is insane.[/quote]

Agreed - it is absolutely CRAZY how different layers interact. For example, on a 12" mattress (3" x 4), I think having a soft comfort layer (i.e. 3" 15), a medium transition layer (i.e. 3" 24) and a firm core (i.e. 6" 32 or 36) allows the comfort layer to compress more and feel softer (at least “different”) than having a design where every single layer gets progressively firmer (i.e. 15>19>24>36). Progressive only seems to work to a point - at some point you need something firmer to start pushing back so that you can compress the comfort layer (sinking in) vs. gradually compressing EVERY layer (sinking down) if that makes sense.

I have just about every firmness/ILD a person could imagine in my possession, and to be honest, designing a latex mattress that I’m happy with has been one of the most difficult things I’ve ever done and I’m still not quite there yet (although hopefully getting closer).

28

Hi jkozlow3,

It certainly makes sense to me!

As you know the “art and science” of mattress design and theory can often be counter intuitive because there are so many moving parts and variables in how different layering combinations and people interact together that the results of some combinations for some people can sometimes be very surprising.

The “physics” or “math” behind why a certain combination works well for someone is certainly interesting but can also become overwhelmingly complex and can only take you so far before personal experience (and often trial and error) needs to take over and become the deciding factor regardless of “why” a combination may work best for any particular person.

All of this can be both frustrating and rewarding … but the learning curve never ends and it’s never “boring” … at least for me :slight_smile:

Phoenix

29

[quote=“Stardustgirl” post=40217][quote=“jkozlow3” post=39381]

Stardustgirl,

You may not have a lot of success with a soft layer on the bottom of your Flobed unless you put it outside the mattress (i.e. a 3" topper in a separate zippered cover underneath the Flobed mattress). The reason I say this is that the Flobed design only uses (3) 3" layers + the convoluted layer. To make a softer layer work with the Flobed, you may be sacrificing a lot of support without a 4th 3" layer. For example, you could end up with the following from top to bottom:

Inside the Flobed mattress:

2" Convoluted
3" 19 ILD
3" 32 or 36 ILD
3" 19 ILD

This might end up being too soft and not supportive enough, but you won’t know until you try it. If the above configuration does work, you may need a support layer that is firmer than you would otherwise need. For example, if 6" of 28 would have worked well for you, you may need 3" of 36 instead.

If you added a separate 3" 19 ILD topper beneath the mattress, you could still have a 6" support layer with the Flobed. Just something to keep in mind. But as I’ve learned over the past several months of DIY configurations, theory will only take you so far. There is no substitute for actual trial and error.

Edit: Phoenix posted while I was typing and I definitely agree with what he said. I’ve made changes too quickly on several occasions before giving my body time to adjust. Sometimes you know right away that a particular configuration will simply not work. Other times, I’ve learned that if a particular configuration is “close” to give it a week or two.[/quote]

Thanks for the suggestions! I did try out the S/M/S combo and was really happy with it, even with the layers all being inside the mattress cover. I’ve got the 100% Natural Talalay, which has a 22ILD for their soft layer, according to the FloBeds site so that setup is

2" Convoluted
3" 22ILD
3" 28ILD
3" 22ILD

It looks crazy soft, but I’m pretty small and back when I was looking at the options on FloBeds site (you can get a 4 3"layers version of their bed), I was told I’d not really get any benefit from more than 3 layers at my size.

I currently have it set up as 22/22/28, which Dewey suggested as I’m still needing to tweak that “cush” a bit (probably a thin topper will fix that, but that’s a later-on fine-tuning bit). That arrangement is comfy too, but not as springy as the 22/28/22, so I’ll likely go back to that one as it was my favorite. My alignment seems OK with both of those. I don’t have any back issues. With the softer layers I can pretty much leap out of bed with no stiffness. With firmer layers it was like I was lying on a plank, and found myself lying on my back stretching out as much as possible to get away from the hard surface (I’m a side-sleeper, so that was an act of desperation) :lol: I was also very stiff and mostly rolled out of bed and moved slowly. I had planned on giving each arrangement a week try-out, but the ones with “firm” (32ILD) made me so uncomfortable that I ditched them right away.

It’s amazing what a change that softer bottom layer makes! I would not have thought of that had I not read it here. I’ve seen it suggested as a way to change the firmness of the layer above it, but for me the bounce / spring / life of it is the key.[/quote]

Stardustgirl,

Your 2" convoluted>3" 22>3" 28>3" 22 sounds very logical to me and I believe it’s actually very similar to Phoenix’s personal mattress (3" 22 >4" 28>3" 22). Ironically, I’m trying out a similar configuration to yours at the moment as well (although slightly firmer - I may be heavier than you): 3" 15>3" 24>3" 36>3" 19 and I like it more than most of the configurations I’ve tried (dozens and dozens - you have no clue). I’m ~155 lbs and this seems to work pretty well so far, but I’ve only been on this one for a couple of nights. On my ~105 lb wife’s side, I’ve replaced the layer of 36 with a 32, so even closer to your configuration. Per my previous post in reply to Rictorjr, I believe it’s important that the “support” layer be firm enough to allow you to compress the comfort layers vs. just allowing everything to sink down.

One thing I’m realizing is that I don’t need more than 3" for a “support” layer along with the 3" softer layer underneath. The 3" 36 seems plenty supportive. All of my previous configurations had included a 6" base/core layer and most of them had a 3" 19 ILD topper under that. I just assumed that 3" of a firmer support layer would not be enough, but I was clearly wrong. At our weights, 3" is fine. And I know Phoenix will probably disagree with me on this one :slight_smile: , but I find that 6" is far firmer than 3" of the same ILD (for the same reason that 1 folded towel will feel soft if you push on it but a stack of 10 folded towels will feel firm if you push on it). I find that almost any material acts firmer when there is “more” of it (a thin wood board vs. a thick wood board, etc). For example, there is simply no way that I can sleep on anything with 6" of 36 as the base/core (even with a 3" 19 ILD layer underneath making the total height of the mattress 15" instead of the 12" configuration I have now), but a 3" layer of 36 seems to work well.

30

Phoenix wrote

I’m happy I found this forum, otherwise it never would’ve occurred to me to put a soft layer on the bottom in my quest for more “life” to my mattress. It’s probably not an issue for a lot of people, but you’re right - I’m loving the waterbed similarity. I had a full-motion bladder in mine, so not moving is different.

Hey, I’m in good company! :cheer: I’m closer to your wife’s size, but if I remember my conversations from FloBeds correctly, those 4 - 3" layer models were more geared toward larger people (maybe over 200 lbs? I can’t remember.) so you finding that 3 3" layers is working sounds like it supports what they were saying.

I totally get that “sinking in” vs “sinking down” thing. With the firmer ILDs I was sinking in but found the hard surface waiting below the comfort layer to be uncomfortable. With the Medium (28) as my support, I can sink into the soft layer and the Medium gently pushes back without feeling like a concrete slab. I was surprised at how much difference I felt between the Medium and the Firm even though they’re not drastically different.

I’m very happy to discover the soft-on-bottom trick here. It probably saved me endless frustration with rearranging layers and not being able to put my finger on what exactly the issue was. Thanks for posting your experiences! I hope your current combo is The One. :slight_smile: