Help Arranging Layers

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

Hi all,
I have learned a lot of information lurking on this site. After going through 3 beds in about a 3 year period I finally found MU and jumped into Latex.

I purchased an Eastern King from Arizona Premium Mattress with a soft/medium split core and 3" 19 ILD topper. I have the medium as I am 5’11" 215. Wife has the soft at 5’3" 135. My medium side seemed too firm and my wifes was way too soft ( I was hammocking). I was still having back problems so I threw another layer on.

I purchased a 3" 25 ILD Dunlop (cheaper) Latexco duvet mold topper. Currently the bed has:

3" 19 ILD Nat Talalay on top
3" 25 ILD Dunlop
6" 28 ILD (Soft) and 6" 32 ILD (Med) cores

The bottom 9" is in the mattress cover.

After adding the topper I seem to prefer her side over mine (still seems too firm pressure wise and still waking with a mild back ache). Now before I do my layer exchange I’m wondering:

A: Will the medium latex on my side soften up over time?
B: Should I just do the layer exchange even though everything I’ve read says a soft core is no good over 200lbs even though I prefer it?
C: Should I swap the 19 & 25 ILD layers and try that?

Thanks

2

A few thoughts…

  1. 28 ILD is probably not a firm enough support core at your weight - not with 6" of softer latex on top of it anyway!

  2. A 25 ILD Dunlop (if the ILD is accurate which it probably isn’t since ILD in Dunlop isn’t very reliable) is probably the rough equivalent of a 32 ILD Talalay when compressed 65% (which it would be near the top of the mattress). This isn’t very soft for a comfort layer. You might try a combo of 19 over 22 (Radium) or 19 over 24 (Latex International) Talalay instead. Are you a side sleeper? You didn’t say. My suggestion would probably be too soft at your weight if you’re not.

  3. Going too soft on the support core in an attempt to soften the surface of the mattress is tricky and can be a step in the wrong direction based on my DIY mattress experience. You need to get the comfort layer right and then figure out how firm your support needs to be (or vice versa) - this can be a tricky balance to achieve however!

  4. With 6" of soft stuff on top you might need a 36 ILD core at your weight. Keep in mind that the recommendations made by Arizona Mattress are with only a 2-3" comfort layer on top of the core - not 6"! With only a 2-3" comfort layer, you can get away with (and will probably need) a softer core in order for the mattress to not feel too firm. Based on my experience, for each 1-2" you add to the comfort layer (above about a 3" starting point), you need to increase the firmness of the core by approximately 1 level (i.e. go from 32 ILD to 36 ILD) to keep the overall “feel” somewhat similar. I’m still going back and forth between 32 ILD and 36 ILD for my bottom 6" and I only weigh around 155 lbs. This is with 6" of soft stuff on top however. If I have less than a 6" comfort layer (i.e. 5"), I definitely need the softer 32 ILD core, as 36 ILD is too firm at my weight as a side sleeper. If I have less than a 5" comfort layer (i.e. 3-4"), I actually seem to need a 28 ILD core (which is what’s currently on my 105 lb wife’s side) in order for the mattress to not feel too firm for me. Everyone’s experience will be different in this regard, and this is certainly not a universal truth, but I’m only listing my experience in hopes that it might help point you in the right direction.

  5. Yes, the core will soften slightly over time, but if you’re not comfortable on it after a few nights, it’s not going to soften dramatically (don’t hope for this, as it won’t happen).

  6. Finally, I have found that I cannot sleep on ANY latex mattress that doesn’t have a layer of soft foam on the BOTTOM. Think of it like a 2-sided mattress (but it’s technically not symmetrical/flippable). The soft latex on the bottom COMPLETELY changes the feel and EVERY configuration I’ve tried without it feels too firm to me. I got this idea from the Pure LatexBliss beds which are offered with a soft latex foundation consisting of 4" of 19 ILD latex underneath the mattress. In lieu of the pricey PLB foundation, I simply use a 3" 19 ILD topper underneath my mattress (outside of the encasement and on top of the slats). This makes the bed MUCH, MUCH more comfortable and “springier” feeling. Again, I couldn’t use any configuration without this layer, and I’ve tried every combination a person could ever try (mimicking the PLB Beautiful, World’s Best Bed, and many, many more). This is only my experience - yours may vary.

Hope this helps!

3

Hi rictorjr,

[quote]I purchased an Eastern King from Arizona Premium Mattress with a soft/medium split core and 3" 19 ILD topper. I have the medium as I am 5’11" 215. Wife has the soft at 5’3" 135. My medium side seemed too firm and my wifes was way too soft ( I was hammocking). I was still having back problems so I threw another layer on[/quote].

In most cases … the “cause” of lower back issues is in the softness of the support core (a softer support core will allow the heavier parts of your body such as your hips/pelvis to sink down too far) and/or the thickness and softness of the comfort layers (which can “allow” the same heavier parts of your body to sink down too far before being “stopped” by the firmer layers) so your description of your more subjective perceptions (seemed too firm) seems to contradict your actual experience (still having back problems) although it would depend on the type of back problems you were having and their location.

I agree with jkozlow3 that the best way to “fix” a mattress that has a support core that your symptoms indicate is too soft would be to change the support core to a firmer version rather than adding a topper which is generally used to improve pressure relief (not to firm up the support). If the cause of any issues you are having is a support core that is too soft then adding layers on top of the mattress isn’t usually an effective solution because you would be making changes to the wrong layers and “pushing” the softer layers that used to be on top of your mattress deeper into your sleeping system which can have the opposite effect than what you are hoping for. If anything these types of issues (lower back pain or discomfort) would be more likely to be “fixed” by reducing the thickness of the comfort layers (so you are closer to the firmer layers underneath them) or by using a firmer support core but of course this also involves a tradeoff because the mattress could also be a little less pressure relieving.

If a mattress is too firm and needs some additional pressure relief but provides good alignment then this is where a topper can be effective and in this case adding a topper that is “just enough” in terms of thickness and firmness is generally the most effective solution so that there is less risk of compromising the support and your alignment on the mattress. Post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to can help with choosing the thickness and firmness of a topper that has the best chance of success.

There is more about some of the different “symptoms” that people may experience on a mattress and some of the possible causes for them in post #2 here and the posts it links to that may help you with the detective work that may be necessary to identify the types of changes and tradeoffs that may be most effective for you.

Probably not enough to make a significant difference … and I wouldn’t “wait for it” to happen.

There are no “rules” that apply to all people so a mattress design that doesn’t work for the majority of people can work well for the minority of people even if it doesn’t match “theory”. If your sleeping experience indicates that your wife’s side works well for you in terms of PPP and you have tried it for long enough that you are confident that it’s an ideal configuration and that your experience isn’t an anomaly that will change over a longer period of time then there would be no reason not to exchange the layers on your side to match hers.

It would certainly be worth trying and if nothing else comparing your specific experience and “symptoms” on this combination relative to the other combinations you have tried can provide some useful pointers about the configuration that may work best for you.

I would certainly try all the options you have available before making any further changes or exchanges and I would also have a more detailed conversation on the phone with Arizona Premium so you can discuss your experience with them in more detail and take advantage of their knowledge and experience to help you decide on the type of changes that would have the greatest chance of success.

The first step though is to identify the most likely cause of any symptoms you are experiencing on a mattress so you don’t just follow a “trial and error” or “random” process and make well thought out changes to the design that have the highest odds of success based on the specific symptoms you are experiencing. When you have tried a second configuration for long enough to be confident that what you are experiencing is likely to also be your experience in the longer term then I would carefully assess the specific difference in between the two configurations in terms of comfort/pressure relief and support/alignment and which symptoms were reduced or which became worse so you can use the comparison as a pointer to identify the specifics of any further changes that may be necessary to bring you closer to your “ideal” configuration.

Phoenix

PS @ jkozlow3,

I’d never asked about the ILD of the 4" layer in the PLB foundation but 14 seemed fairly low to me so I confirmed today that it’s 19 ILD which is still on the soft side but would certainly make a difference in the “feel” and performance of the mattress and also means that your 3" 19 ILD topper under the mattress may be closer than you thought.

4

[quote=“Phoenix” post=38876]

PS @ jkozlow3,

I’d never asked about the ILD of the 4" layer in the PLB foundation but 14 seemed fairly low to me so I confirmed today that it’s 19 ILD which is still on the soft side but would certainly make a difference in the “feel” and performance of the mattress and also means that your 3" 19 ILD topper under the mattress may be closer than you thought.[/quote]

Good to know! I was told 14 ILD by a retailer at one point many months ago (but not from my more recent and reliable source which I never did confirm with). I’ve updated my post to reflect the correct ILD (and I also added some other thoughts above). I noticed that you updated the PLB Blue Specs thread with this info and the WBB specs as well. :slight_smile:

I really do think there’s something to having a softer piece on the bottom. That’s probably why you like your 2-sided mattress so much Phoenix. Softer latex on the bottom completely changes the feel, and in my opinion, definitely for the better! It’s a springier and softer feel, but I still have plenty of support from the firmer 6" core. The mattress just feels “dead” without the soft piece at the bottom. That’s the best way I can describe it. The wife agrees, and she’s definitely less of a mattress “enthusiast” (polite way of saying “nut”) than I am!

5

Thank you both for your responses. I am a side sleeper. With the 19ILD on top of the 32 (med) core I was going right through the 19 and resting firmly on the 32. It felt like lying on the ground and wasn’t very comfortable. That’s what led me to another comfort layer in the first place. I don’t think a firmer core is the answer for me. Also, my hips and shoulders did not sink in hardly at all causing my hips to over rotate and aggravate my back. My wife’s side WAS way too soft and my spine was dipping causing pain.

Adding the 25 ILD Dunlop topper has firmed up her side a little, and seems to have softened my side but not enough. I am 3 nights into sleeping on her side and my spinal alignment is correct and I’m comfortable. Since that is what matters most I am going to buck conventional theory and exchange for the softer core in lieu of trying an endless number of configurations. I can always play around later if need be. Thanks guys!

6

That sounds wise. The only advice I might give you is to give it a few more nights just to be sure. In my DIY quest for the perfect mattress I’ve noticed that my opinion sometimes changes (sometimes for the worse) at around the 1-1.5 week mark. Just a thought. Of course, I suppose your wife is probably sleeping on your firmer side in the meantime which is probably not making her terribly happy right now either. Catch-22.

Endless configurations = a nightmare and many thousands of dollars! (not to mention stacks and stacks of latex throughout the entire guest bedroom) :oops:

7

Hi rictorjr,

I would add a ditto to jkozlow3’s comments including the suggestion to sleep on a configuration that seems to be working for you for a little longer because things can change over the course of the first couple of weeks as your body adjusts to a new configuration and has a chance to “catch up” to the changes you have made.

IMO as well … personal experience always “trumps” theory.

Phoenix

8

Update:

On my wife’s softer core I have now woken up 2 days in a row with lower back pain. I was so hopeful it was right for me. I feel like I’m on a cloud, completely weightless and fall asleep very quickly. While it is more comfortable I may have to sacrifice some pressure relief for alignment and go back to my side of the bed. I’m wondering if my initial discomfort on my side was due to the quick jump in ILD with little transition.

I’m going to move the 25ILD Latexco Duvet topper to the top and put the 19 ILD Nat Talalay back in the casing and see what happens. with the Dunlop as the middle layer it makes the transition at the split almost gradual so it seems that the softer side of the bed is smaller. It may not be soft enough though.

If that doesn’t work I’ll try JKOSLOW’s suggestion of moving one of the softer layers underneath the core, probably the 25 ILD Dunlop.

I’ll keep you posted!

9

OUCH! That was huge mistake. My back is killing me. My wife said my alignment looked good but I’m questioning her judgement. The 25 ILD Dunlop is not nearly as plush as the 19 ILD Talalay. Also the 19 below the 25 allows the 25 to dip where my hips are.

Im going to try the 25 under the core inside the casing and move the 19 back to the top outside the casing.

In the event that doesn’t work out I’ll go back to more tradional progressive layering I started with. I guess I’m just tired of rebuilding this bed to try the different configurations. My wife thinks I’m crazy. It must be nice for her to be able to sleep on anything.

10

Hi jkozlow3,

Yes … I updated both specs in the PLB Specs thread. I was told at one point by PLB that their WBB used the 21 ILD in the top layer but there were several people who had mentioned that they were told it was 14 ILD so I confirmed that they (and you) were correct and the ILD of the latex foundation as well.

Every layer in a mattress has an effect in combination with all the other layers so it would certainly be part of the reason why my mattress feels the way it does. Having soft latex on the bottom has a definite effect on the feel of a mattress. It allows for some softness under the mattress which provides some “give” (similar to a coil mattress that uses a box spring or a latex mattress that uses a tension adjustable slatted base) but the “give” is less contouring than if the same layer is on top. It’s what I call the difference between “sinking down” vs “sinking in”. With a two sided construction (or a similar design) it’s usually a good idea to keep the bottom “soft” layer less than around 3" or so because when you go thicker than this it can have a higher risk of compromising alignment (although of course personal experience always “trumps” theory). You will find that most manufacturers are very wary about building a two sided mattress that uses comfort layers on both sides that are too thick both for durability reasons as well as alignment reasons which is one of the reasons that a one sided design can provide more flexibility in design with a more “progressive” approach to layering. Whether this approach is for the better or not always depends on the person and some people prefer a more progressive layering where the mattress feels more “solid” and “stable” (or what you call “dead”) with the firmest layer on the bottom.

One of the fascinations with mattress design and theory for me is that it’s a such a great combination of art and science and that combined with the differences between people and their unique needs and preferences and the ongoing introduction of new ideas and materials means that the learning curve and fascination never ends (at least for me). Some of the most interesting conversations I have are the ones that go on for hours with mattress manufacturers that are working on different designs (or discussing current designs) and talking through all the tradeoffs in feel, performance, materials, design, target markets, and cost that will eventually lead to a new mattress. It’s a huge industry and the more you know … the more you realize there is to know.

Phoenix

11

Phew… the change is complete. It feels much better. Only time will tell. I currently have the bed as follows:

3" 19 ILD natural talalay (on top of the casement, under the matress protector)
6" Split cores natural talalay 28 ILD hers / 32 ILD his
3" 25 ILD dunlop

It sounds strange but the matress feels different with that softer layer on the bottom. Maybe not so much on her side as the layers are comparable ILD wise but so far my side is certainly different. You guys are on to something with this. I’ll post an update in a few weeks provided I don’t make any additional adjustments.

Happy 4th of July!

12

Hi rictorjr,

That’s good news … and hopefully the improvement will remain over the course of the next week or two.

One other thing that may also be worth trying (but only if it’s necessary) would be to use the 32 and 19 inside the casing and put the 25 ILD Dunlop on the bottom outside the mattress cover. A separate layer will have a more independent response and can “act” softer than the same layer inside the cover (similar to a pillowtop design) so if you are still feeling too much of the firmness of the 32 ILD core with your current configuration “through” the topper then having the 19 ILD layer inside the cover may help with the transition between your top two layers and you would still have the extra “give” under the mattress with the separate Dunlop topper on the bottom.

I’m looking forward to your feedback on your new configuration :slight_smile:

Phoenix

13

[quote=“Phoenix” post=38993]
One of the fascinations with mattress design and theory for me is that it’s a such a great combination of art and science and that combined with the differences between people and their unique needs and preferences and the ongoing introduction of new ideas and materials means that the learning curve and fascination never ends (at least for me).
Phoenix[/quote]

Yeah, my DIY approach has certainly been interesting and I also find mattress design a bit fascinating as well. Having just about every possible ILD available in both 2" and 3" thickness (for the comfort layers) and having 28, 32 and 36 ILD split 6" cores (2x3" - not 6" thick) REALLY allows one to fine tune to their heart’s content and realize how subtle changes can lead to big differences. For me, my DIY project was more about the satisfaction of knowing that my final design could not be improved upon once I had tried every desired configuration and learned how the various layers interacted with each other. That, and I knew my wife would want a core that was approximately 1 level softer than what I ended up with on my side since she’s about 50 lbs. lighter than me and only weighs around 100 lbs (which makes most latex mattresses feel too firm for her).

14

Great news! Yeah, I definitely prefer the feel with the softer layer on the bottom. It’s a more “lively” and “springier” feel. That’s the best way I can describe it anyway.

15

Well, the 25 ILD on the bottom certainly gave it a different feel. Almost as if it nullified the transition between the 19 ILD top and 32 ILD core. However, I was waking up with my arms asleep depending on what side I was sleeping on.

I needed the thicker comfort layer. So, to alleviate the strange issue of a progressive transition side to side with the layers like this:

3" 19 ILD natural Talalay (on top of the casement, under the mattress protector)
3" 25 ILD Dunlop
6" Split cores natural Talalay 28 ILD hers / 32 ILD his

I cut the 25 ILD topper into 2 pieces and re-layered again this way. My pressure issues seem to have been relieved but my hips are still sinking in too much and I’m having lower back pain.

Time to eat some crow, I’m trying to get a layer exchange done for my side and going to the firm 36ILD core. Hopefully this will resolve my issues. If not I’m contemplating changing out the 25ILD Dunlop layer on my side and getting a 28ILD Talalay layer in 2 or 3" for my side only. The Dunlop definitely has a weird feel compared to the Talalay as a comfort layer. Almost like inserting a taut rubber sheet in the middle of the layers.

Do you think 3" will be too much to add. I’ll then have a 6" comfort layer… Trying to tweak this is definitely frustrating. I feel like I’m living the princess and the pea. My wife hardly can tell when I change anything unless it’s drastic. I feel every wrinkle in the sheet.

I appreciate your feedback.

Thanks

16

Hi rictorjr,

This is not an unusual comment when you use Dunlop in between Talalay layers because of the differences between the two types of latex (see post #7 here) and while any combination of layers can work well or be a preference for some people … it would be more common to use Dunlop either in the bottom layers or on top (depending on different people’s preferences) rather than in between Talalay layers.

I’m not clear on the difference between this and the combination in your first post which appears to be the same. I thought you had already tried the 3" layers with both of them on top.

It’s not really possible to know until you sleep on it because of all the variables involved and your sensitivity to smaller changes but a 3" layer of @25 ILD Dunlop and a 3" layer of @28 ILD Talalay will be “somewhat” similar in terms of firmness but because of your experience with 6" of “softer stuff” on top which didn’t seem to work for you in either combination it may be worth considering a little less thickness in the transition layer to keep you closer to the firmness of a higher ILD support core.

I would probably only make one change at a time as well so that you can evaluate things “one step at a time” rather than trying to figure out the combined effect of two different changes (the 3" layer and the support core firmness) which can be more difficult to assess.

Phoenix

17

Phoenix,

The only difference is that I’ve split the Dunlop layer as the side to side transition was weird. It made the soft side only soft on about 2/3’s of her side and then it got firmer towards my side. I did try this combination and it was best for pressure relief but I was mostly trying my wife’s “soft” side at that point because it was so comfortable I wanted it to work. Realistically my alignment was bad so I went back to my “firmer” side, which still seems to too soft for my hips. I might even consider zoning if I collect enough different layers… I can’t seem to find a happy medium between my shoulders and my hips.

With the Dunlop on the bottom the 3" 19ILD on top is not enough for me, that’s why I reverted back. Two days of dead arms waking up was enough. My plan for now as you’ve suggested is to get the firmer core and use what I have to make adjustments (if needed). Then down the road if necessary maybe I’ll switch out the 3" 25 ILD Dunlop for a 2" 28 ILD Talalay. The 2" is cheaper and I don’t want to be buying latex forever!

Thanks!

18

Hi rictorjr,

OK … that makes sense to me.

There is some information here about zoning in post #11 here that may be useful.

That all makes good sense to me as well :slight_smile:

I’m looking forward to your next “report”.

Phoenix

19

In regards to what jkozlow3 was talking about, with a softer layer (within reasonable thickness as Phoenix said) underneath similar to the PLB latex covered foundations I have to wonder if the physics aren’t somehow similar to the construction of an innerspring. In a lot of spring units it seems like the actual design of the spring itself is an hourglass type shape so the coil is firmest in the middle and as weight is applied (in theory) would evenly begin compressing the wider/softer portion of the coils at the top and bottom approaching the firmer tighter wraps in the middle of the coil. Wouldn’t softer over firmer over softer latex roughly mimic the same action? (since the upper padding in an innerspring is mostly for comfort, using the springs beneath to provide the support in place of a latex core)

20

Hi brass,

An hourglass shape has a variable spring rate so as you mentioned it has some initial softness with compression and then will become firmer much more rapidly as the firmer section of the spring kicks in.

Foam is a little bit different because foam materials absorb and distribute more of the compression forces over a wider surface area as the compression forces goes deeper while springs have very little hysteresis (the ability to absorb energy) so the force that goes out the bottom will be distributed over the same surface area as the force that is applied to the top (although of course this also depends on the type of spring and whether it has helical coils that attach the springs together).

With softer layers of foam underneath firmer layers then they will have less effect on how much the foam in the upper layers compresses and the firmer layers will “bend” into the softer layers more than “compress” into them. It would be similar to what is called a dominating layer where you have a firmer layer over a softer layer. This allows for a firmer sleeping surface with less of an “in the mattress” feeling but still provides some “give” under the mattress that can help with pressure points. This is one of the reasons that a box spring with springs is often used under an innerspring mattress and is an essential part of the design and performance of the “sleeping system” in terms of PPP. It’s the difference between what I call “sinking in” (with the foam surrounding you) and “sinking down” (where the upper layers are more bending into deeper layers that are softer and you aren’t compressing into the top layers as much).

There is more about this in post #16 here about variable spring rates and in post #2 here about the differences between the response curves of latex and innersprings and in post #2 here and the other posts it links to which talks more about dominant layers. It’s also similar to a mattress that is used on a flexible slatted or tension adjustable base (see post #2 here and post #3 here about box springs, flexible slat systems, and foundations).

All the layers and components of a mattress compress and interact together and will compress to different degrees depending on the layers and components that are both over and under them and these differences in the relative compression of each layer are part of what creates the “feel” and response of the mattress.

Phoenix