Help Arranging Layers

Hi rictorjr,

OK ā€¦ that makes sense to me.

There is some information here about zoning in post #11 here that may be useful.

That all makes good sense to me as well :slight_smile:

Iā€™m looking forward to your next ā€œreportā€.

Phoenix

In regards to what jkozlow3 was talking about, with a softer layer (within reasonable thickness as Phoenix said) underneath similar to the PLB latex covered foundations I have to wonder if the physics arenā€™t somehow similar to the construction of an innerspring. In a lot of spring units it seems like the actual design of the spring itself is an hourglass type shape so the coil is firmest in the middle and as weight is applied (in theory) would evenly begin compressing the wider/softer portion of the coils at the top and bottom approaching the firmer tighter wraps in the middle of the coil. Wouldnā€™t softer over firmer over softer latex roughly mimic the same action? (since the upper padding in an innerspring is mostly for comfort, using the springs beneath to provide the support in place of a latex core)

Hi brass,

An hourglass shape has a variable spring rate so as you mentioned it has some initial softness with compression and then will become firmer much more rapidly as the firmer section of the spring kicks in.

Foam is a little bit different because foam materials absorb and distribute more of the compression forces over a wider surface area as the compression forces goes deeper while springs have very little hysteresis (the ability to absorb energy) so the force that goes out the bottom will be distributed over the same surface area as the force that is applied to the top (although of course this also depends on the type of spring and whether it has helical coils that attach the springs together).

With softer layers of foam underneath firmer layers then they will have less effect on how much the foam in the upper layers compresses and the firmer layers will ā€œbendā€ into the softer layers more than ā€œcompressā€ into them. It would be similar to what is called a dominating layer where you have a firmer layer over a softer layer. This allows for a firmer sleeping surface with less of an ā€œin the mattressā€ feeling but still provides some ā€œgiveā€ under the mattress that can help with pressure points. This is one of the reasons that a box spring with springs is often used under an innerspring mattress and is an essential part of the design and performance of the ā€œsleeping systemā€ in terms of PPP. Itā€™s the difference between what I call ā€œsinking inā€ (with the foam surrounding you) and ā€œsinking downā€ (where the upper layers are more bending into deeper layers that are softer and you arenā€™t compressing into the top layers as much).

There is more about this in post #16 here about variable spring rates and in post #2 here about the differences between the response curves of latex and innersprings and in post #2 here and the other posts it links to which talks more about dominant layers. Itā€™s also similar to a mattress that is used on a flexible slatted or tension adjustable base (see post #2 here and post #3 here about box springs, flexible slat systems, and foundations).

All the layers and components of a mattress compress and interact together and will compress to different degrees depending on the layers and components that are both over and under them and these differences in the relative compression of each layer are part of what creates the ā€œfeelā€ and response of the mattress.

Phoenix

I want to thank you for starting this thread; Iā€™ve found it very informative! I just got my new Flobeds latex mattress, and am in the layer-arranging phase of my purchase. Iā€™m going to try out a softer layer on the bottom because one issue I do have is that it feels ā€œdeadā€. I went with Talalay because of the bounce, but I guess I like more spring than the average person (possibly not surprising since Iā€™m coming from a full-motion waterbed). I actually woke up several times on my first night feeling a bit anxious because of the utter lack of movement.

Hi Stardustgirl,

Transitioning from a waterbed can take quite some adjustment but FWIW there are many people who have made the same switch from water to Talalay latex and been very happy with the switch.

It may take some time to get used to a new sleeping system that is different from what you are used to so I would just add a caution that itā€™s usually better to ā€œdo nothingā€ for the first couple of weeks or so (if possible) before making any changes or experimenting with different combinations so that your body has a chance to ā€œcatch upā€ with some of the differences before you start making any further changes.

Phoenix

Stardustgirl,

You may not have a lot of success with a soft layer on the bottom of your Flobed unless you put it outside the mattress (i.e. a 3" topper in a separate zippered cover underneath the Flobed mattress). The reason I say this is that the Flobed design only uses (3) 3" layers + the convoluted layer. To make a softer layer work with the Flobed, you may be sacrificing a lot of support without a 4th 3" layer. For example, you could end up with the following from top to bottom:

Inside the Flobed mattress:

2" Convoluted
3" 19 ILD
3" 32 or 36 ILD
3" 19 ILD

This might end up being too soft and not supportive enough, but you wonā€™t know until you try it. If the above configuration does work, you may need a support layer that is firmer than you would otherwise need. For example, if 6" of 28 would have worked well for you, you may need 3" of 36 instead.

If you added a separate 3" 19 ILD topper beneath the mattress, you could still have a 6" support layer with the Flobed. Just something to keep in mind. But as Iā€™ve learned over the past several months of DIY configurations, theory will only take you so far. There is no substitute for actual trial and error.

Edit: Phoenix posted while I was typing and I definitely agree with what he said. Iā€™ve made changes too quickly on several occasions before giving my body time to adjust. Sometimes you know right away that a particular configuration will simply not work. Other times, Iā€™ve learned that if a particular configuration is ā€œcloseā€ to give it a week or two.

[quote=ā€œjkozlow3ā€ post=39381]

Stardustgirl,

You may not have a lot of success with a soft layer on the bottom of your Flobed unless you put it outside the mattress (i.e. a 3" topper in a separate zippered cover underneath the Flobed mattress). The reason I say this is that the Flobed design only uses (3) 3" layers + the convoluted layer. To make a softer layer work with the Flobed, you may be sacrificing a lot of support without a 4th 3" layer. For example, you could end up with the following from top to bottom:

Inside the Flobed mattress:

2" Convoluted
3" 19 ILD
3" 32 or 36 ILD
3" 19 ILD

This might end up being too soft and not supportive enough, but you wonā€™t know until you try it. If the above configuration does work, you may need a support layer that is firmer than you would otherwise need. For example, if 6" of 28 would have worked well for you, you may need 3" of 36 instead.

If you added a separate 3" 19 ILD topper beneath the mattress, you could still have a 6" support layer with the Flobed. Just something to keep in mind. But as Iā€™ve learned over the past several months of DIY configurations, theory will only take you so far. There is no substitute for actual trial and error.

Edit: Phoenix posted while I was typing and I definitely agree with what he said. Iā€™ve made changes too quickly on several occasions before giving my body time to adjust. Sometimes you know right away that a particular configuration will simply not work. Other times, Iā€™ve learned that if a particular configuration is ā€œcloseā€ to give it a week or two.[/quote]

Thanks for the suggestions! I did try out the S/M/S combo and was really happy with it, even with the layers all being inside the mattress cover. Iā€™ve got the 100% Natural Talalay, which has a 22ILD for their soft layer, according to the FloBeds site so that setup is

2" Convoluted
3" 22ILD
3" 28ILD
3" 22ILD

It looks crazy soft, but Iā€™m pretty small and back when I was looking at the options on FloBeds site (you can get a 4 3"layers version of their bed), I was told Iā€™d not really get any benefit from more than 3 layers at my size.

I currently have it set up as 22/22/28, which Dewey suggested as Iā€™m still needing to tweak that ā€œcushā€ a bit (probably a thin topper will fix that, but thatā€™s a later-on fine-tuning bit). That arrangement is comfy too, but not as springy as the 22/28/22, so Iā€™ll likely go back to that one as it was my favorite. My alignment seems OK with both of those. I donā€™t have any back issues. With the softer layers I can pretty much leap out of bed with no stiffness. With firmer layers it was like I was lying on a plank, and found myself lying on my back stretching out as much as possible to get away from the hard surface (Iā€™m a side-sleeper, so that was an act of desperation) :lol: I was also very stiff and mostly rolled out of bed and moved slowly. I had planned on giving each arrangement a week try-out, but the ones with ā€œfirmā€ (32ILD) made me so uncomfortable that I ditched them right away.

Itā€™s amazing what a change that softer bottom layer makes! I would not have thought of that had I not read it here. Iā€™ve seen it suggested as a way to change the firmness of the layer above it, but for me the bounce / spring / life of it is the key.

Hi Stardustgirl,

Thanks for the update and Iā€™m glad to hear that youā€™ve found a combination that seems to be working well for you (or two combinations).

I think that the softer layer on the bottom may have a ā€œfeelā€ that is more like the waterbed you were used to so itā€™s not all that surprising that you like it although based on ā€œaveragesā€ it would be softer than most people would choose.

I appreciate that you took the time to share your feedback :).

Phoenix

[quote=ā€œPhoenixā€ post=39313]Hi rictorjr,

OK ā€¦ that makes sense to me.

There is some information here about zoning in post #11 here that may be useful.

That all makes good sense to me as well :slight_smile:

Iā€™m looking forward to your next ā€œreportā€.

Phoenix[/quote]

So, Iā€™ve been on the firm core for a week or 2 now. Pressure points seem to be at a minimum. The firmer core makes the top layers seem softer somehow. The ways these layers interact with one another is insane.

I think I have a winner although sometimes I still have a back ache from time to time depending on how long Iā€™m in bed. I may need to get that softer layer. I might get 2 or 3" of 22ILD Talalay to replace the 25 ILD Dunlop as 28 ILD Talalay may be too comparable in firmness. Iā€™m going to wait at least a month and see how it pans out.

[quote=ā€œrictorjrā€ post=40233]

So, Iā€™ve been on the firm core for a week or 2 now. Pressure points seem to be at a minimum. The firmer core makes the top layers seem softer somehow. The ways these layers interact with one another is insane.[/quote]

Agreed - it is absolutely CRAZY how different layers interact. For example, on a 12" mattress (3" x 4), I think having a soft comfort layer (i.e. 3" 15), a medium transition layer (i.e. 3" 24) and a firm core (i.e. 6" 32 or 36) allows the comfort layer to compress more and feel softer (at least ā€œdifferentā€) than having a design where every single layer gets progressively firmer (i.e. 15>19>24>36). Progressive only seems to work to a point - at some point you need something firmer to start pushing back so that you can compress the comfort layer (sinking in) vs. gradually compressing EVERY layer (sinking down) if that makes sense.

I have just about every firmness/ILD a person could imagine in my possession, and to be honest, designing a latex mattress that Iā€™m happy with has been one of the most difficult things Iā€™ve ever done and Iā€™m still not quite there yet (although hopefully getting closer).

Hi jkozlow3,

It certainly makes sense to me!

As you know the ā€œart and scienceā€ of mattress design and theory can often be counter intuitive because there are so many moving parts and variables in how different layering combinations and people interact together that the results of some combinations for some people can sometimes be very surprising.

The ā€œphysicsā€ or ā€œmathā€ behind why a certain combination works well for someone is certainly interesting but can also become overwhelmingly complex and can only take you so far before personal experience (and often trial and error) needs to take over and become the deciding factor regardless of ā€œwhyā€ a combination may work best for any particular person.

All of this can be both frustrating and rewarding ā€¦ but the learning curve never ends and itā€™s never ā€œboringā€ ā€¦ at least for me :slight_smile:

Phoenix

[quote=ā€œStardustgirlā€ post=40217][quote=ā€œjkozlow3ā€ post=39381]

Stardustgirl,

You may not have a lot of success with a soft layer on the bottom of your Flobed unless you put it outside the mattress (i.e. a 3" topper in a separate zippered cover underneath the Flobed mattress). The reason I say this is that the Flobed design only uses (3) 3" layers + the convoluted layer. To make a softer layer work with the Flobed, you may be sacrificing a lot of support without a 4th 3" layer. For example, you could end up with the following from top to bottom:

Inside the Flobed mattress:

2" Convoluted
3" 19 ILD
3" 32 or 36 ILD
3" 19 ILD

This might end up being too soft and not supportive enough, but you wonā€™t know until you try it. If the above configuration does work, you may need a support layer that is firmer than you would otherwise need. For example, if 6" of 28 would have worked well for you, you may need 3" of 36 instead.

If you added a separate 3" 19 ILD topper beneath the mattress, you could still have a 6" support layer with the Flobed. Just something to keep in mind. But as Iā€™ve learned over the past several months of DIY configurations, theory will only take you so far. There is no substitute for actual trial and error.

Edit: Phoenix posted while I was typing and I definitely agree with what he said. Iā€™ve made changes too quickly on several occasions before giving my body time to adjust. Sometimes you know right away that a particular configuration will simply not work. Other times, Iā€™ve learned that if a particular configuration is ā€œcloseā€ to give it a week or two.[/quote]

Thanks for the suggestions! I did try out the S/M/S combo and was really happy with it, even with the layers all being inside the mattress cover. Iā€™ve got the 100% Natural Talalay, which has a 22ILD for their soft layer, according to the FloBeds site so that setup is

2" Convoluted
3" 22ILD
3" 28ILD
3" 22ILD

It looks crazy soft, but Iā€™m pretty small and back when I was looking at the options on FloBeds site (you can get a 4 3"layers version of their bed), I was told Iā€™d not really get any benefit from more than 3 layers at my size.

I currently have it set up as 22/22/28, which Dewey suggested as Iā€™m still needing to tweak that ā€œcushā€ a bit (probably a thin topper will fix that, but thatā€™s a later-on fine-tuning bit). That arrangement is comfy too, but not as springy as the 22/28/22, so Iā€™ll likely go back to that one as it was my favorite. My alignment seems OK with both of those. I donā€™t have any back issues. With the softer layers I can pretty much leap out of bed with no stiffness. With firmer layers it was like I was lying on a plank, and found myself lying on my back stretching out as much as possible to get away from the hard surface (Iā€™m a side-sleeper, so that was an act of desperation) :lol: I was also very stiff and mostly rolled out of bed and moved slowly. I had planned on giving each arrangement a week try-out, but the ones with ā€œfirmā€ (32ILD) made me so uncomfortable that I ditched them right away.

Itā€™s amazing what a change that softer bottom layer makes! I would not have thought of that had I not read it here. Iā€™ve seen it suggested as a way to change the firmness of the layer above it, but for me the bounce / spring / life of it is the key.[/quote]

Stardustgirl,

Your 2" convoluted>3" 22>3" 28>3" 22 sounds very logical to me and I believe itā€™s actually very similar to Phoenixā€™s personal mattress (3" 22 >4" 28>3" 22). Ironically, Iā€™m trying out a similar configuration to yours at the moment as well (although slightly firmer - I may be heavier than you): 3" 15>3" 24>3" 36>3" 19 and I like it more than most of the configurations Iā€™ve tried (dozens and dozens - you have no clue). Iā€™m ~155 lbs and this seems to work pretty well so far, but Iā€™ve only been on this one for a couple of nights. On my ~105 lb wifeā€™s side, Iā€™ve replaced the layer of 36 with a 32, so even closer to your configuration. Per my previous post in reply to Rictorjr, I believe itā€™s important that the ā€œsupportā€ layer be firm enough to allow you to compress the comfort layers vs. just allowing everything to sink down.

One thing Iā€™m realizing is that I donā€™t need more than 3" for a ā€œsupportā€ layer along with the 3" softer layer underneath. The 3" 36 seems plenty supportive. All of my previous configurations had included a 6" base/core layer and most of them had a 3" 19 ILD topper under that. I just assumed that 3" of a firmer support layer would not be enough, but I was clearly wrong. At our weights, 3" is fine. And I know Phoenix will probably disagree with me on this one :slight_smile: , but I find that 6" is far firmer than 3" of the same ILD (for the same reason that 1 folded towel will feel soft if you push on it but a stack of 10 folded towels will feel firm if you push on it). I find that almost any material acts firmer when there is ā€œmoreā€ of it (a thin wood board vs. a thick wood board, etc). For example, there is simply no way that I can sleep on anything with 6" of 36 as the base/core (even with a 3" 19 ILD layer underneath making the total height of the mattress 15" instead of the 12" configuration I have now), but a 3" layer of 36 seems to work well.

Phoenix wrote

Iā€™m happy I found this forum, otherwise it never wouldā€™ve occurred to me to put a soft layer on the bottom in my quest for more ā€œlifeā€ to my mattress. Itā€™s probably not an issue for a lot of people, but youā€™re right - Iā€™m loving the waterbed similarity. I had a full-motion bladder in mine, so not moving is different.

Hey, Iā€™m in good company! :cheer: Iā€™m closer to your wifeā€™s size, but if I remember my conversations from FloBeds correctly, those 4 - 3" layer models were more geared toward larger people (maybe over 200 lbs? I canā€™t remember.) so you finding that 3 3" layers is working sounds like it supports what they were saying.

I totally get that ā€œsinking inā€ vs ā€œsinking downā€ thing. With the firmer ILDs I was sinking in but found the hard surface waiting below the comfort layer to be uncomfortable. With the Medium (28) as my support, I can sink into the soft layer and the Medium gently pushes back without feeling like a concrete slab. I was surprised at how much difference I felt between the Medium and the Firm even though theyā€™re not drastically different.

Iā€™m very happy to discover the soft-on-bottom trick here. It probably saved me endless frustration with rearranging layers and not being able to put my finger on what exactly the issue was. Thanks for posting your experiences! I hope your current combo is The One. :slight_smile:

Yeah, you probably need the 28 since you technically only have a 4.5" comfort layer. The 2" convoluted layer averages 1.5", as they cut 2 convoluted pieces from a 3" layer. Therefore, you were feeling the firmer 32 layer too easily. For us, weā€™ve got 6" in the comfort layer above the firmer 3" core, so we need to go slightly firmer in order to properly compress the comfort layer. Iā€™m positive that my wife would also need/want a 28 ILD layer if we had any less than 6" above it.

Happy to help. And I really hope that this configuration is ā€œthe oneā€ too!

Okay, I need some help. I was going to wait a while but my back seems to feel progressively worse each day. My current configuration is:

3" 19 ILD Nat Tal
3" 25 ILD Dunlop (Latexco duvet)
6" 36 ILD Nat Tal

Iā€™m finding that I just donā€™t sink in enough. Iā€™m about 215lbs. and very heavy in the chest with broad shoulders. Both my hips and chest just need a little more to sink into.

Iā€™m going to get rid of the Dunlop transition layer (put it on my sonā€™s bed) and replace it with 3" of Nat Talalay. The question is what ILD to get? As itā€™s a ā€œtopperā€ itā€™s non returnable. A 28 ILD Nat Talalay feels too comparable to me. I donā€™t want to buy it and find out itā€™s similar to what I already have. So my Options would be:

3" 19 ILD Nat Tal
3" N3 25-29 ILD Nat Tal (similar to the 25 ILD Dunlop in my opinion)
6" 36 ILD Nat Tal

or

3" 19 ILD Nat Tal
3" N2 20-24 ILD Nat Tal
6" 36 ILD Nat Tal

Would the 2nd option be too plush? HELP!!! I need to order this as soon as possible.

Thanks

Hi rictorjr,

I would keep in mind that if your symptoms are lower back pain or discomfort that your mattress may already be too soft for you (considering your weight as well) since these are most commonly symptoms of alignment issues where the comfort layers are too thick or soft.

I would probably consider trying either the 3" of 19 ILD Talalay or the Dunlop directly on the core to see if your back issues show any improvement (even though you may replace alignment issues with pressure issues).

If you are confident that what you need is even softer yet then the next logical step would probably be a 3" 24 ILD Talalay transition layer. This would also be very similar to the PLB Beautiful mattress (see post #2 here) so you may want to do some careful testing on a Beautiful in a store to see how well it seems to work and feel for you.

Since your other layers are also ā€œnaturalā€ Talalay and not ā€œall naturalā€ ā€¦ I would probably go with natural for the transition layer as well since it will be a lower cost than the ā€œall naturalā€ you are considering.

Phoenix

I have tried the 19 ILD directly on top of the med and firm cores Iā€™ve had. I go right through the 19 and hit the core. Iā€™m confident I need softer. Iā€™ll see if I can get my hands on a 24 ILD layer. My bed is 100% natural so Iā€™m trying to stay consistent after making the error of trying to save money by getting the Dunlop layer.

Hi rictorjr,

This would be a pressure issue which is different from an alignment issue. I wasnā€™t suggesting that you only use the 3" layer over the core as a final design but that testing whether it made a difference in your back symptoms and assessing how your symptoms changed would provide a valuable reference point. For example if you found that your back (alignment) issues are better even though they are replaced with pressure issues it would give you some valuable insights into the type of changes that may work best for you.

Having said that ā€¦ if you are confident that you need softer comfort layers then of course thatā€™s the direction I would go.

Based on the specs you listed it sounds like your layers may be ā€œnaturalā€ (which uses a blend of natural and sythetic rubber) rather than ā€œall naturalā€ (which uses 100% natural rubber).

There are some good sources for any type, thickness and ILD of Talalay you may need in post #4 here (KTT Enterprises and Sleep Like a Bear both carry all the LI options).

Phoenix

I have done testing with just about every combo with the layers I had. I definitely needed the softer comfort layer. Since AZ Premium is about 15 minutes from my house I gave Ken a call and picked up an N2 3" Twin XL layer yesterday. I slept like a baby last night and was much more comfortable. I still have mild pain in my mid back on one side. Iā€™m starting to think itā€™s just me. If I do some pushups on my first down stroke something pops in my back on that side. Maybe I need a Chiropractor. Current configuration:

3" 19 ILD Nat Tal
3" N2 20-24 ILD Nat Tal
6" 36 ILD Nat Tal

AZPM lists their 100% Natural in specific ILDā€™s. I think itā€™s just the way they list them. In reality I probably have N1, N2 and N5 respectively. AZPM had the best prices I could find and they are conveniently located near my house.

Thank you for all your help!

Hi rictorjr,

[quote]I have done testing with just about every combo with the layers I had. I definitely needed the softer comfort layer. Since AZ Premium is about 15 minutes from my house I gave Ken a call and picked up an N2 3" Twin XL layer yesterday. I slept like a baby last night and was much more comfortable. I still have mild pain in my mid back on one side. Iā€™m starting to think itā€™s just me. If I do some pushups on my first down stroke something pops in my back on that side. Maybe I need a Chiropractor. Current configuration:

3" 19 ILD Nat Tal
3" N2 20-24 ILD Nat Tal
6" 36 ILD Nat Tal[/quote]

Thatā€™s good news ā€¦ thanks for the update :slight_smile:

OK ā€¦ that makes sense. I believe that Arizona Premium normally carries Radium Talalay which are also rated in ā€œNā€ firmness ratings (for their 100% natural Talalay) but they are different from the ā€œNā€ ratings of LI (you can see Radiumā€™sILDrangeshere).

Phoenix