We’ve been shopping for a new mattress for too long. Way too long. We have been to a number of big name brand retailers and then we found R&S Mattress’s stores here locally and took a lay on their latex beds and we like the notion of knowing what’s in the bed and being able to tell what we’re actually paying for.
We’re kind of trying to decide between their Mallory which is a hybrid, 4" of talalay latex on top of a coiled spring system, and the Bliss that they sell in store which is different than the one they sell on the website. It has 2 3" layers of talalay and then a 6" layer of soy based foam (is that the same as polyfoam of some kind?) and unlike the one on the website it doesn’t have a removable top comfort layer.
They have a $100 off coupon on their website right now which will bring the Mallory to $850 and the Bliss to $1700. What I’d like to know is what kind of durability can I expect to get out of these mattresses. If they’re both going to last 5 years than I’ll be able to figure out how much I’m spending a year and decide if I like the Bliss that much more per year than the mallory, etc. Or if the coils will last longer than the soy polyfoam as a support core, then that makes the mallory last longer with approximately the same comfort level before we have to replace it, then that might make it significantly cheaper, see? I’d like to be able to at least quantify the difference in feel so I can tell if it’s really worth it or not to me financially to spend the extra $900 on the Bliss
So does anybody have either of these beds and can tell me how long roughly I can expect them to last with about the same feel after our initial break in period? It doesn’t have to precise, all of these things are back of a napkin calculations, anyway
Yes … it’s polyfoam that has replaced a small percentage of one of the two main petrochemicals used to make it (the polyol) with a soy oil based alternative. You can read more about “soy based” polyfoam in post #2 here. I would compare it and other “plant based” polyfoams to conventional polyfoam of the same density in terms of durability.
There isn’t any formula that you can use to assign a number of years that you will sleep well on a mattress because there are so many variables involved including the type of materials, your body type and sleeping style, and where you are inside the “range” of a mattress that is suitable for you in terms of PPP. If you are close to the threshold of a mattress that is too soft for you then even a small amount of foam softening may put you outside the range of a mattress that is suitable for you while if you have plenty of “room” for foam softening before a mattress loses the comfort and/or support that is suitable for you then it will last much longer. There is more in post #4 here and the posts it links to about the many factors that can affect the useful life of a mattress relative to each person.
Depending on your weight and sleeping style … the top 5" - 6" or so of a mattress will be the most important factor in the useful life of a mattress and the support core will have much less to do with durability than the comfort layers. Since the top 4" of both mattresses is latex which is the most durable of all the foam materials they should both last you much longer than 5 years (and double that would be a more reasonable expectation) although I would give the edge to the Bliss which has 6" of latex on top.
The most important part of the “value” of a mattress purchase would be how well it matches your unique needs and preferences in terms of PPP because no matter what the cost or quality of a mattress, if you don’t sleep well on it then it would have little value to you. This is where careful and objective testing using the testing guidelines in the tutorial post is important when you are testing local mattresses.
After suitability … then durability would be the next most important part of the “value” of a mattress purchase but based on your descriptions neither one would have a weak link in the materials (you can see the guidelines I would use in post #4 here).
Finally after suitability and durability, then the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price) would also be a significant part of the “value” of a mattress purchase.
Hey, thanks for the links to the other places on the forum where you discussed this. Super helpful info.
[quote]Depending on your weight and sleeping style … the top 5" - 6" or so of a mattress will be the most important factor in the useful life of a mattress and the support core will have much less to do with durability than the comfort layers. Since the top 4" of both mattresses is latex which is the most durable of all the foam materials they should both last you much longer than 5 years (and double that would be a more reasonable expectation) although I would give the edge to the Bliss which has 6" of latex on top.
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So, the Mrs. likes to sleep on her stomach, but ends up on her side a lot of the time, and I’m a back predominant, but also I often end up as a side sleeper. Neither of us is super big, both of us are 5"7 and 155 lbs + 180 lbs.
They didn’t know the specs on the Mallory that they sell in store but I called back and they told me it’s 28 ILD Talalay latex on the top layer, and then a 1" layer of HD foam and then the coils. So while the Mallory didn’t necessarily feel significantly stiffer to us than the 19 ILD apparently it was a couple of notches higher up their firmness scale.
Another question I have is how soft the softening of the latex gets; I’ve seen mentioned in a few places here that in the lower ILDs latex tends to have lower durability; does that mean that a 19 ILD will get softer than a 28 ILD latex layer? i.e. after the break-in the 19 will end up as a perceived 14 where as a 28 might end up as a percieved 26? Also, do the softer ILDs of latex end up softening quicker than the firmer ones? i.e. the 19 ILD break-in period to it’s resting plateau would happen after 2-3 weeks where as a 28 ILD foam would take 4-5 weeks to break in fully to the 26?
The “quality specs” of a mattress are important to know so you can assess the durability and useful life of a mattress and make meaningful comparisons to other mattresses (see post #4 here) but the “comfort specs” of a mattress such as ILD aren’t important at all because with a local purchase, careful and objective testing using the testing guidelines in the tutorial post will tell you much more about whether a mattress is suitable for you in terms of PPP than a comfort specs such as ILD which is only one of many specs that contribute to the feel and performance of a mattress and really don’t mean much in “real life” for most people that don’t have extensive experience in the industry (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).
There is more about the factors that can affect the durability of a mattress in the post I linked in my last reply and the other posts it links to but softness is certainly a durability factor in any foam material (because you will compress softer materials more than firmer materials). While softer foams are less durable than firmer foams of the same type … latex is the most durable type of foam in general and will maintain it’s original properties longer than other types of foam that are in the same softness range.
Foam softening will tend to be greater under the heavier or more “protruding” parts of the body that compress the foam more deeply so foam materials will soften unevenly (which is why foam softening can lead to the loss or comfort and support) but a 19 ILD latex isn’t likely to soften enough that it would be equivalent to a 14 (which would be a loss of ILD of over 25% but a loss of 7% (from 28 to 26) is certainly possible. Even a brand new latex core can have a difference across the surface that is more than this. ILD is never exact and it isn’t likely that anyone would feel any difference in two materials that were only 2 ILD apart different. Latex international for example tests the ILD of a core in 9 different places and a typical blended latex core can easily have a difference of more than that between the highest and the lowest ILD in each of the 9 testing positions on the same core.
A typical “break in” period happens in conjunction with the individual adjustment to any new sleeping surface and the body’s “relearning” of muscle and sleeping memory and will typically be in the range of about 30 - 90 days or so (depending on the specific design of the mattress and the body type, sleeping style, and sensitivity of the person sleeping on it). After this the “feel” of a new mattress will tend to be more stable and foam softening tends to be much slower and more gradual. I don’t know of any way to isolate the effects of one or the other since they happen simultaneously so for some people they both seem to only take only a few days while for others it takes longer.
I didn’t know that the ILD could vary across the surface of a piece of latex. That’s fascinating. Do you have a link to more info on how they test for ILDs? I’m just curious how it all works.
So would the break-in/break-down happen more quickly for 19 ILD than for 26 ILD? And does 19 ILD count as “lower ILDs” for deteriorating more quickly?
Post #6 here has more information about ILD’s in general. There is a video here for Latex International which shows their ILD testing (at 3:00) and one for Radium here (click step 9) which shows their ILD testing. Thisimageofalabelalsoshowsanhttps://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/0https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/1https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/2https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/3https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/4https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/5https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/6https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/7https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/8https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/966/36ILDblendedold_2014-04-23.jpg]This0average35ILDandis"rated"ashttps://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/0https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/1https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/2https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/3https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/4https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/5https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/6https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/7https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/8https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/9theyusefortheirblendedTalalay).
The length of the break in and adjustment period isn’t specific and will vary from person to person and mattress to mattress. 19 ILD would be in the range that 100% natural Talalay would likely be less durable than blended yes
Okay, this past weekend, we got a chance to try out Brooklyn Bedding’s Enchantment at an R&S Mattress, and we liked it, though I like the softer feel of the bliss more than the Enchantment. The Bliss they sell instore you’ll recall has 3" of 19 ILD Talalay, 3" of 24 ILD Talalay and then the 6" Soy based polyfoam on the bottom. The Enchantment has 3" of 24 ILD Talalay on top, then 3" of 28 ILD and then the 6" of polyfoam.
Of course, now I’m worried that the Enchantment is too stiff because I’m kind of in love with the soft feel of the bliss, but my wife is worried the bliss will soften too much or will be bad for our backs when we wake up because it’s too soft
I have one more question and an added data point for you, Phoenix.
Question:
Why is the mallory which has 2" less latex and then replaces the foam in the Enchantment with coils so much cheaper (it’s like an $800 difference)? I would think that all the metal in the coils would be way more costly than polyfoam, but maybe I don’t understand the underlying polyfoam raw costs?
Data point:
We also tried out Mattress Dealzz here in Utah. I’ve seen you post about them a couple of places on the forum and I thought I’d let you know what the guy told me about their latex beds. They have some that are coil support cores with just a couple of inches of latex on top for the comfort layers and then they have some which are all latex (and they have quite the setup of layers; he showed me a nice spreadsheet which gave them all, they have firmer lumbar support strips with higher ILDS across the middle etc.). He said they get them from Southerland and Englander but he couldn’t remember which one came from where (coils from Southerland and Latex from Englander or vice versa).
Anyway, thanks again for all your help and for the awesome resource.
I don’t know their wholesale cost for different components or materials but it would come down to the cost of construction and all the raw materials in the mattress along with any difference in margin (which is usually fairly similar between mattresses in the same budget range made by the same manufacturer). The wire that is used to make coils isn’t a particulary costly material (and it isn’t a “solid” material like polyfoam) although some innerspring designs are certainly more complex to make and more costly than others.
He probably meant that the mattresses are manufactured by either Southerland or Englander since neither one makes their own coils to my knowledge and they definitely don’t pour their own latex (and neither one would supply individual components).
Thanks for your update … and I’m looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding.
Hey there, sorry for the confusion; yes he definitely meant the mattresses, not the coils or latex itself. Southerland and Englander (and maybe other people?) make mattresses for the MattressDealzz company brand line is what he said. He just could remember if the ones that have a support core made with coils come from Southerland or Englander and vice versa for the ones with support cores made of foam.
Just bit the bullett and bought the bliss from R&S Mattress. It should get here in the next couple of days and we’ll report back.
I’d like to be able to at least quantify the difference in feel so I can tell if it’s really worth it or not to me financially to spend the extra $900 on the Bliss 