Here’s my scenario: I bought a premium 10" 100% Dunlop latex mattress from one of the approved vendors on this site (The Mattress Maker in Brockton, MA) back in summer 2014. You know the drill: felt fantastic in the showroom, better than the other mattresses. However, even after a few weeks adjusting to the bed, I’d wake up with spinal pain right between my shoulder blades (around 1-3 on a pain scale of 1-10). The pain made it difficult for me to bow my head down, and it was quite uncomfortable to touch my chin to my chest, for example.
Thinking the issue was the mattress was too soft (it certainly FELT soft/squishy), I went back to the store and lay down on a firmer latex mattress, and that was simply too firm. I couldn’t commit to going to a firmer mattress as I was only allowed one mattress change, so I just gave up on the latex mattress altogether and bought a cheapo futon to sleep on and now that’s starting to wear out, which makes me believe there must be SOME WAY I can get this premium latex mattress to work for me.
Some other stats: I’m obese (5’7", 230 pounds) and generally sleep on my back and side. Unfortunately, I can’t give ILD stats as the vendor uses a proprietary firmness scale, C1-C5, with C5 being the firmest. For what it’s worth, I looked at my old receipt and it simply said “C4”, which, if memory serves me, means at least the comfort layer is a C4, which would put it on the higher end of the ILD scale, I’d assume.
Subjectively, the mattress feels soft. I’m guessing that I’m sinking down overnight, and a (very) slight valley can be seen in the part of the mattress where I sleep (see red line in photo – the view is from the foot of the bed straight across to the head of the bed). I’ve also observed the edges of the mattress are firmer than the center of the mattress.
My question: would either a 1) new pillow or 2) a latex topper tweak this mattress to remedy the pain/spinal alignment issues? I use a flat regular cotton pillow, but am willing to try a more plush one of a different material if that may help.
If I go the topper route, I’m looking at Brooklyn Bedding’s toppers simply because they offer a 30-day money-back guarantee. But what firmness? Phoenix, do you think a soft (19 ILD), medium (28 ILD) or firm (36 ILD) would be the best place to start? If you don’t know, I could ask Brooklyn Bedding directly, of course. Or do you think a topper wouldn’t work at all given my scenario?
Yes, Mattress Makers is a member here of the site, which means that I think highly of them and that I believe that they compete well with the best in the industry in terms of their quality, value, service, knowledge, and transparency. While we recommend/endorse the site members here, I do try to stay away from the term “approved”, just because it can have the connotation to readers that the site members here are the only businesses available that provide the type of knowledge, service and quality products that I recommend, and for those reading through this thread I want to be clear that there are certainly other quality manufacturers out there who are not members of this site (at least not yet ). I don’t mean to sound as if I am picking on your choice of words, as I know you personally are familiar with this site. My note here is more for the uninitiated who might stumble across our discussion.
I’m sorry that you were having a problem adjusting to your new mattress in your cervical/upper thoracic area. Unfortunately, diagnosing your issues over an online forum is a bit problematic, but I’ll do my best to make some suggestions as I go through your post.
The first place I’d have you start reading is post #2 here, which describes some of the common reasons (but of course not all) for upper back and neck pains. Quite often this is the result of a product that allows the user to sink in a bit too deeply in that region of the body, or a pillow that is too high, or a combination of both, allowing for too much “rounding” or forward flexion (for a back sleeper) while sleeping, and this through the night can cause your body to maintain micro postural contractions in an attempt to maintain a more “neutral” alignment, and this can result in waking soreness. This of course is a general supposition and doesn’t take into account your personal levels of fitness, flexibility, strength, somatotype, sleeping posture and individual preferences which will all have an impact upon your sleep. I thought that before you had these issues because you were sleeping upon your stomach, which can cause the same pains, but through a different set of stresses.
Nothing can replace your own personal testing and experience, and generally this is quite accurate. If you are thinking that this mattress is a bit too soft for you, it is quite possible that this is the case, or at least in the upper comfort layers the padding layers may be too soft for your preference.
Let’s just say you have a higher BMI.
Knowing all of the layers within your mattress would be more important than knowing the actual ILDs when you have the chance to test a product in person. When you are testing a mattress locally then disclosing “comfort specs” such as ILD/IFD isn’t really necessary or an important part of transparency because with careful testing your body will tell you much more about whether any specific combination of layers or components or any specific mattress is a good “match” for you in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences). I would consider ILD/IFD information to be a legitimate part of what many manufacturers consider to be “proprietary” information, but sometimes I agree it is nice to know ILD ranges when making changes to a configurable mattress or when you are considering adding a topper.
We do know from the Mattress Makers site that their different models use 100% NR Dunlop latex, with a thick layer of wool quilted to the ticking. From your previous posts, you stated that your mattress has 2" of C4 over 6" of C3 and 2" of C4 on the bottom, which is a bit of a firmer mattress, and I am guessing that they recommended this based upon the sleeping style that you stated at that time was mostly on your stomach. I’m not sure if back then they were using the Mountain Top latex, which does use the “C” scale. They now list Latex Green on their web site.
Again, I would refer to your overall sensation as the best guidance of the appropriateness of comfort for your needs. If you think the mattress is “too soft” (regardless of whether someone else thinks it is “too firm”), your opinion wins out. Without being in front of your mattress, my best guess would be that the slight dipping seen in the photo would be a result of the quilted wool layer taking a bit of a set where you normally sleep. Wool can compress about 30% or so, and it will remain a bit more lofty in the areas of the mattress (edges) where it has not gone through as much use. While all foams will soften a bit with use, even latex, it would be quite odd for a three-year old latex layer to take excessive body impressions. One of the thing to consider would be the frame/foundation under your mattress, which I can’t tell from the photo. You’d just want to double check that the surface under your mattress is flat and firm and does not dip in the center.
My other thoughts will mimic much of what I stated back in 2014 when you had some similar questions (the thread is here is you wish to revisit it) in that you seem to be describing the need for a bit more “deep support”. But I understand that you are beyond the range for being able to change out for a mattress with a bit of a firmer support core.
[quote]My question: would either a 1) new pillow or 2) a latex topper tweak this mattress to remedy the pain/spinal alignment issues? I use a flat regular cotton pillow, but am willing to try a more plush one of a different material if that may help.
If I go the topper route, I’m looking at Brooklyn Bedding’s toppers simply because they offer a 30-day money-back guarantee. But what firmness? Phoenix, do you think a soft (19 ILD), medium (28 ILD) or firm (36 ILD) would be the best place to start? If you don’t know, I could ask Brooklyn Bedding directly, of course. Or do you think a topper wouldn’t work at all given my scenario?[/quote]
A pillow certainly could assist with upper back issues. You had complained about a similar issue in 2014 which on its face “pointed toward” the possibility of a pillow being too thick for a stomach sleeper. Now as you are sleeping on your side and back, it could be that you have a pillow that is too high, or a mattress that lets you sink in a bit too much, or possibly a combination of both. But these again are generalizations based upon averages.
It could be that you might benefit from a bit of a firmer upper comfort layer, and if that is the case you might wish to consider one of the slightly firmer toppers. I don’t know that these would necessarily provide as much relief to you if you did indeed need a deeper support layer. Being able to return a topper is definitely a benefit and here are a few other online mattress toppers that can be returned.
I know I haven’t provided you a definitive answer to your question, but in this particular case there unfortunately isn’t a way that I can do anything besides make the more general comments that I have here and in my 2014 reply, and none of these comments will replace your own personal results when testing new combinations.
I’ll look forward to learning what you decide to do and hopefully learn of some positive progress.:cheer:
). I don’t mean to sound as if I am picking on your choice of words, as I know you personally are familiar with this site. My note here is more for the uninitiated who might stumble across our discussion.