Help me understand progressive

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
10

Hi awoods,

There really isn’t a lot of prior work you will need to do because you already know they are knowledgeable and transparent and most of the testing will be done when you go there.

My standard opening “line” when I call a retailer or manufacturer is “can I talk with someone about your mattresses?” I would then tell them you are traveling a fair distance and wanted to maximize the time that you had available there so could you give them a little bit of information about you and the mattresses you have tested and liked so that they can help you narrow things down a little bit before you visit them. I would then tell them what you are looking for (along the lines of what you posted here) and see if you can set a time to go there that the person you talked with will be on the floor so you can deal with them when you are there (and not have to start at the beginning again).

I would keep things very general and leave the specifics for when you go there.

Phoenix

11

Thanks very much for the advise on what to discuss over the phone! I will figure out a time I can visit, then give them a call.

12

I was able to go out to Fox yesterday to try in person. They really are great to work with! Very informed and attentive to what I was looking for, but did not rush us as we tested. Their showroom is big! They had approx 60 different models available for testing! I got overwhelmed before I tested as many as I’d like, but thanks to Trina’s guidance, I think we tested the ones that were most inline with our goals. It is great that they are so willing to educate you on what they have!

Some of the things I learned were:

  1. A doctor’s note provided to them will allow them to omit the fire barrier. They use boric acid, and I really do not want that in my mattress. So if I make my purchase there, I will absolutely go to my doctor and get a note.
  2. I really like the feel of a small amount of polyfoam in the quilting layer over the latex. They use 1 1/2" in the quilting layer. I still feel the latex has good spring and conforms well, but it smooths out the bouncyness just enough to eliminate that “bouncy castle” sort of feel so that motion transfer isn’t as noticeable.
  3. The quilting pattern is important to me. Hadn’t realized that before. But as I’m a stomach sleeper, I realized that since I use a very thin, or no pillow, I don’t want a quilting pattern that will place one of the quilting low spots right under my face.

We selected an innerspring model and a latex model we liked best. I would give the edge to the latex model, but my husband would give the edge to the innerspring. There is a 2K price difference between them, so it will be important for us to think carefully about it.

The two we liked were

100% Natural latex model

  • Quilting layer with 1.5" polyfoam
  • 2" 24 ILD, 4lb Talalay comfort layer
  • 6" 38-41 ILD, 4.8lb Talalay core

Innerpring model
2" soy based foam
1 1/2" latex (I think the 24 ILD, but this was the last bed we tried and I was on overload)
Fabric encased Pocket coils with a polyfoam border on the edges of the bed (like on their website video)

I think the one thing I was bit disappointed about with my visit is that they had no 3 layer latex models, and there were not any options to customize the level of softness of the latex in the all latex model. That is the only configuration it comes in. I was really hoping to learn a bit more about my preferences for different latex firmness options and how they interact.

For me, I think I might have preferred the comfort layer to be just a bit softer so I sink in just a little more, but this was very close, and I got good support. For my husband, he said he was comfortable on his side but looking at his alignment, I think his spine would be better aligned if it sank in another inch (as it was on various polyfoam pillowtop models we tried that were far to soft for me, but which he preferred). I wonder if on the all latex he might have been bottoming out on the comfort layer and hitting the firm support layer with his shoulder similar to what Halifax (who sounds of similar build) was experiencing in post #11.

He said that the pocket-coil mattress felt softer to him, and looking at his alignment on his side, I think his shoulder sank in a bit better than on the all latex model. So although the pocket coil model had the same thickness of comfort layer, maybe he was able to “borrow” comfort from the support layer a bit better. Does that seem reasonable?

So brings me back to the opening question of this thread on progressive models. I would love to have tested an all latex 3 layer model that had soft/med/firm layers to see if that configuration is better for his shoulder.

I’m also interested in your assessment of why Fox uses a 2" comfort layer instead of a 3" layer? I know that cost would be one reason, but it seems like offering a 3" comfort layer option would be nice. I suspect that if the model we tried had a 3" comfort layer, my husband would have liked it more. When I asked about customization, Trina indicated the only thing they could customize on the latex model was omission of the fire barrier, and selection of the quilting pattern. This is disappointing, as part of what attracts me to a local manufacturer is what I had hoped would be the ability to slightly tweak a model that is “almost” until it is “perfect” for the individual. I’m very hesitant to go with the pocket coil mattress, as I don’t want that much polyfoam (that outer surround) and the pocket coil fabric gives dust mites an additional place to live. But I would hate to pay so much for the all latex version, only to find out the comfort layer is too thin, or too firm. While adding an additional latex topper could help either of those issues, a lot of what I like about this model is the quilting layer on top of the latex, which would no longer be on the surface if I added a topper. So close…but not perfect, so the price tag makes me quite hesitant. If I decide this is my top choice, I will definitely go back and lay on it for 15-20 minutes again before I decide for sure.

Doing a bit more reading of others posts here, I learned today that there is a Savvy Rest dealer in Winter Park that is only a few miles from me. I think my next step will be to go there so I can experience a 3 layer latex model and spend some time figuring out what combination I like best, then compare that to the latex model that Fox offers.

Thanks again for all the wonderful knowledge this site brings together to help people on their individual journeys!

13

Hi awoods,

Thanks for taking the time to share some great feedback and comments about your experience at Fox Mattress … I appreciate it :slight_smile:

You are certainly doing some good testing and research which is good to see. It’s interesting to see some of the things that you discovered such as your preference for covers that are quilted with polyfoam or that one of you prefers an innerspring support core because there are many people that share the same preferences but in some cases they would look right past them because they start their research with preconceived ideas about what is “best for them” regardless of what their testing may tell them and personal experience always “trumps” theory.

This certainly sounds possible or even probable but that also doesn’t mean that someone else with a similar body type or sleeping positions will have the same experience because weight distribution and relatively small differences in body shape or the surface area of each part of the body that comes into contact with a mattress can be just as important as weight and make a surprising difference and there are also hundreds of variations in sleeping positions that can result in one person having a very different experience on the same mattress than someone else that “seems” to be very similar based on height and weight. I tend to take a more “bottom line” approach based on actual experience because there can be so many unknowns and variables involved in trying to explain “why” someone has a certain experience or feels what they feel on a mattress that it can be a never ending process to narrow down the “why behind the what” and it can become so complex that it leads to information overwhelm or “paralysis by analysis”.

You would need to ask them this but in most cases a manufacturer will carry a range of mattress designs that they believe would provide the range of options and choices that would be suitable for the majority of customers in their market and wouldn’t tend to make designs that they believe wouldn’t sell as well, that they believe would be a design flaw, that would increase the cost of the mattress outside of the target budget range, or would only be suitable for a smaller percentage of their customers. A mattress that uses a 2" comfort layer can be “functionally similar” to a mattress that uses a 3" comfort layer depending on how it interacts with the other layers and components in the mattress (including the cover) so there is no “magic” in having a specific thickness in one of the layers in a mattress because it’s the specifics of the design of the mattress as a whole that makes the difference.

I’m looking forward to hearing about the rest of your research and of course finding out what you end up deciding.

Phoenix

14

I’m happy to help contribute to the site - I’ve learned so much from others experience sharing. I’ll post again with impressions after my next round of testing.

I agree that one person’s experience is not necessarily a good predictor. What caught my eye about Halifax’s issue was that he loved his mattress to start, but then over a longer period of time started having shoulder issues. I am already concerned that the comfort layers on that specific mattress are not thick enough for my husband’s shoulder, so I’m very interested if Halifax resolved his issue. Hopefully he’ll post an update.

Thanks for your assessment of my guess about why the pocket coils felt better to my husband. With pocket coils, there are 2 things that might not work so well for me. One is possible increased offgassing from the polyfoam surround and pocket coil glues, since I know I’m sensitive to offgassing. The other is the possible increase in dustmites due to the pocket fabric. Do you have opinions on either of these? Have you had anyone experience increased offgassing and/or dustmite issues with pocketcoils vs other types of innersprings? I think next time I talk with Fox I need to ask if they have a model that has the same comfort layers, but uses a non-pocket type of innerspring so we can test it for comfort.

And I will wait to ask Fox about the comfort layer thickness until after I do some further local testing of latex to find out if a thicker comfort layer feels better to us.

15

Hi awoods,

While it may turn out to be true that you need a thicker comfort layer … the “comfort zone” or what I have sometimes called the “critical zone” isn’t the same thing as the thickness of the layers on top of the mattress and will have more to do with the relative firmness of the top few inches of your mattress combined (regardless of the thickness of any individual layers). There is more about this in post #4 here. If it did turn out that your shoulders don’t sink in enough to provide good pressure relief then this would be a case where adding a topper can provide any “fine tuning” that would be necessary if you don’t have any other “fine tuning options” such as a thicker top layer, a softer top layer, a different quilting pattern in the mattress cover, or other options such as a different pillow or a different mattress protector that can improve the pressure relief under the shoulders.

There is more about dust mites in post #2 here but in order for dust mites to multiply and thrive they need a source of food and a source of moisture. Their food comes primarily from skin flakes and a mattress protector (or in some cases a mattress encasement for those that are much more sensitive and/or have known dust mite allergies) would greatly reduce the amount of skin flakes that enter your mattress and “feed” the dust mites. The other is a source of water which they “drink” by absorbing moisture from the air or environment around them. Since coils are more breathable and have higher airflow than foam and ventilate well … they would be less likely to retain the moisture levels that are needed by any dust mites in the mattress. Although it’s true that pocket coils that have fabric pockets will have less ventilation than innersprings that don’t use fabric pockets … it’s unlikely that ventilation would be an issue with any type of innerspring (see post #2 here).

In terms VOC’s and offgassing of the foam surround … the large majority of people would be fine with polyfoam that was either made in North America and/or was CertiPur certified. For the very small minority that were more sensitive to any specific VOC’s than CertiPur tests for (you can see the testing limits here*) because of unusual sensitivities such as MCS (multiple chemical sensitivities) or other health conditions … then they would probably also be sensitive to polyfoam used in their furniture as well and may be better off to avoid polyfoam altogether.

ADMIN NOTE:*Always check CertiPur site for the latest guidelines available

That’s a good idea but again … I would keep in mind that the “critical zone” and the depth of a pressure relieving cradle will also depend on the type, firmness, and thickness of the comfort layer along with the softness of the next few inches of materials or components underneath it. If a mattress you test has a thicker or softer comfort layer but uses firmer layers or components underneath it then it may not be a good reference point for comparison because it could still feel firmer to you than a mattress that uses a thinner comfort layer.

Phoenix

16

Thanks for the input on comfort layer thickness. I definitely agree that many other complex factors are interacting. I

I already use a full encasement for my mattress, box springs and pillow, and wash all bedding with bleach weekly. That keeps my dust mite allergy under control on most days, but not all. so I may lean away from pocket coils just to try and gain any slim advantage I can, since I know I need it.

Very interesting to read through the certipur test details. So many variables there! But I think I will look for a model that holds a certification for any polyfoam in it.

17

Hi awoods,

You can see the foam manufacturers that are CertiPur certified here*. All the major US foam manufacturers are CertiPur certified so if the foam in a mattress is made in the US it would almost certainly be CertiPur certified.

ADMIN NOTE: *Removed 404 link|Archived Footprint: certipur.us/pages/for-industry/find-a-foam-supplier/

Phoenix

18

Today we went to a local Savvy Rest dealer to try out the Serenity latex. Having the middle transition layer makes a big difference for us in terms of comfort and support. To recap, I’m 5’6", 130lb and a stomach sleeper. My husband is 6’, 190 and a side sleeper with broad shoulders. We tried out several configurations, and we both liked the same one best!

Both our favorite is:
Soft Talalay
Med Dunlop
Firm Dunlop
It is great for his shoulder to sink in enough, and I think (but very hard to tell from 15 min) that it has enough support for me. No obvious support issue with an in store test.

Other configurations we tried were

2nd favorite (definitely enough support for me, but a bit too firm for him)
Soft Talalay
Firm Dunlop
Firm Dunlop

I thought this would be my first choice “by the numbers”, but it turned out to be too soft for either of us.
Soft Talaly
Medium Talalay
Firm Dunlop

We also tried changing the top layer to a medium, and we both found this configuration too firm.
Med Talalay
Med Dunlop
Firm Dunlop

It was great to be able to try out Dunlop to find we liked the feel of it. And I learned that I like the feel of the cotton quilting layer better than either the thin knit stretch types or a polyfoam quilted layer that we tried at other places.

So we’ve decided we want a 3 layer latex, now I’m considering Savvy Rest against online models. I am leaning toward the sleeping organic leaf. I will call tomorrow to get their advice on the closest match to the Savvy Rest model we liked. While price is a consideration, my main reasons for buying on line are that Savvy Rest doesn’t allow returns. I have a lot of allergies, and on the off chance I have a sensitivity to latex that I find out after the fact, I will feel better if I know that a return is possible. I am also allergic to wool, and I really liked the feel of the Savvy Rest quilted layer from a comfort standpoint, but it was slightly itchy to me. I think I still want to try out a cotton/wool cover, hopefully the wool will be sufficiently covered by dust mite encasement, sheets etc. But again if that turns out to be an allergy problem, I like that sleeping organic offers a cotton alternative, whereas Savvy Rest does not.

So I have 2 questions:
1 - Any comments on the similarity/differences between the latex Savvy Rest uses vs what Sleeping Organic uses? Do you know if the latex manufacterers are the same?
2 - Any comments on the quality/style of the sleeping organic mattress cover compared to the Savvy Rest? Does it have a similar feel? Does it fit nice and tight like the Savvy Rest?

19

Hi awoods,

Savvy Rest uses either GOLS certified organic Dunlop made by CoCo latex or 100% natural Talalay made by Radium in their mattresses.

Sleeping organic uses either 100% natural Dunlop or GOLS certified organic Dunlop (the 100% natural is the default and the organic is available as an upgrade) or 100% natural Talalay. Their Dunlop comes from Sri Lanka so it would likely be made either by Arpico or by Latex Green (both of which are in Sri Lanka) and both of these are very comparable to each other and to CoCo latex in terms of quality. I’m not sure who makes their Talalay (if I had to guess I would say Radium) but it would also be either closely comparable or the same as Savvy Rest in the same ILD range.

If you are comparing molded 100% natural Dunlop made by different manufacturers and they are the same density then they would be closely comparable in terms of firmness as well. There is also more about the differences between organic Dunlop and 100% natural Dunlop in post #6 here but the main difference is the certification itself … not the feel or performance (again if both are the same density/firmness).

They both use organic cotton and wool but I don’t have any personal experience with either one of them so you would need to talk with them about the more detailed specifics of each of their covers (type and thickness of cotton, type of zipper, type and amount of wool, how the bottom and top of the cover are finished etc). You can see a few comments about the Savvy Rest cover here and here. They would both be relatively “tight fitting” but I don’t know if one would be any tighter than the other.

Phoenix

20

My search is going slowly as other aspects of my life take priority…anyhow…thanks a lot for the great information!

I called Sleeping Organic, and talked with Chris. He was very helpful - knowledgeable and patient answering questions without any high pressure sales techniques. A very enjoyable conversation.

I learned that their Dunlop is made by Latex Green and their Talalay is made by Radium. I asked him for a specific recommendation based on our in person experience trying the Savvy Rest. He had specific ILD numbers on hand that Savvy Rest uses, and mentioned that he keeps samples of the Coco latex they use around for accurate comparisons. How great is that! He said that the soft Talalay they use might be slightly firmer than the one Savvy Rest uses, but overall a configuration of Soft Talalay/Med Dunlop/Firm Dunlop in their model should be very comparable to the SR I tried in person. After describing the two SR configurations we like best, he recommended we go with Soft/Med/Firm rather than Soft/Firm/Firm. He didn’t think that at my weight the Med middle layer would be problematic for stomach sleeping, and he said that most of the layer exchanges he sees are from people returning firmer layers for softer ones.

He also had great information about their covers, and could compare them specifically to the SR. He said that SR uses 1.5lb of wool per yard, and he uses 2.2 lb per yard - so a bit more. They have sourced a 100% organic cotton knit to use as the ticking, and are changing over from a 80/20 blend with polyester. They are also changing to using metal zippers instead of plastic. With those changes, he felt the cover would be very similar to the Savvy Rest, and its level of snugness should be similar. I also asked about the possibility of a non-wool cover, as I have allergies to wool. He said that the wool is very rarely an issue, and if I wanted to order the wool cover and it turns out I do have an allergic reaction, they can do a cover exchange for an all cotton version.

So I think that I am going to order from them. I am also considering SleepEZ. SleepEZ’s price is a bit lower, but I think that the ability to get a quilted non-wool cover if I need it as well as the location of Sleeping Organic are going to tip the balance for me. I expect I will be in the Charleston area over the holidays this year, so if I order prior to the holidays and have some time to evaluate the configuration of my initial order, if it turns out I think I’ll need a layer exchange, I would be able to go by their showroom in person over the holidays to try out a variety of configurations to inform my exchange choice. Those two “peace of mind” features are worth the slightly higher price for me.

I have ordered the West Elm Boerum bed frame, and am waiting for it to arrive. Once it does I will place my mattress order - very exciting!

21

Hi awoods,

Thanks for the comments and the update … I appreciate it!

It sounds like you have done some great research and are close to making a decision.

As you know … I think highly of both Sleeping Organic and SleepEZ and both of them are members of the site and if you have talked with both of them then you certainly won’t go wrong with either one as a final choice :slight_smile:

I’m looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding.

Phoenix

22

Thanks so much for all your help Phoenix! I made my decision, and placed my order this evening. I went with Sleeping Organic, and ordered the “Leaf” with Soft Talalay/Med Dunlop/Firm Dunlop. Can’t wait to get it!

23

Hi awoods,

Thanks for letting us know what you ended up deciding … and as you know I think you made a great choice!

Congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:

I’m looking forward to your feedback once you’ve received it.

Phoenix

24

My new mattress came yesterday - I took a series of pics while assembling

Boerum bedframe from west elm

Mattress cover - very high quality material. The zipper is very solid and metal. The top and sides are quilted, and the bottom is more canvas like. The top zips completely off. The wool does have a “sheepy” smell to it. We hung it on a clothes line for most of the day before assembling. The smell does seem to be fading - hopefully it will dissipate completely. I am allergic to wool, but so far, have not felt any itchyness through the cotton cover. In contrast, I thought laying on the Savvy Rest mattress in the store was itchy.

Bottom layer - firm dunlop. It was very hard to get this piece positioned in the cover. The latex seems about 2 inches too big for the cover side to side. But we did better positioning the later layers, so I think this was more technique of assembly than an actual issue.

Next layer - medium dunlop. Kind of hard to tell which way on the layer should be “up”. Defaulted to making the labels right side up.

478×640 47.6 KB

Top layer - soft talalay. One of the things I was surprised by was that the non-split configuration was 2 separate pieces that had been glued together. You can see the seam in the top layer here. Is this normal? I expected one solid piece. Not really a big deal, just wasn’t what I expected.

Cover all zipped shut.

Dust mite encasement. Hard to work it onto the mattress - but got there in the end.

Mattress protector next (European Sleep Design stretch cotton)

All made up!

I’ve slept on it for one night, and my initial impression is that it is quite a bit firmer than the s/m/f Savvy Rest that I tried. I really wanted my first night’s sleep to be great. But it just wasn’t. I didn’t sleep all that well, had a hard time getting comfortable as it felt a bit too “hard”. An odd feeling, I didn’t feel an specific pressure points, just an overall sensation of not cushy. Mainly an issue with getting to sleep, I didn’t wake up with any pain anywhere, so that’s good. Support was excellent. Hopefully I just need a bit of time for the mattress to go through initial break in and softening, and for my body to adjust after being accustomed to a pillowtop innerspring. Bit nervous tho…as the first night wasn’t that magic success one hopes for. But I’m not going to make any changes and just give my body some time to adjust.

25

Hi awoods,

Thanks for the update and feedback and for the pictures (here and in your other topic about the sleep design protector) … I appreciate it :slight_smile:

Your setup looks great and you certainly made some good choices.

This is a fairly normal experience fitting the bottom layer into a tight fitting cover.

This is also normal for Talalay latex. The molds that are used to manufacture the latex are mainly twin XL (with some queen sizes) and anything bigger than twin (or a few queen sizes or full size that have been cut from a queen) will have a glue seam (see post #2 here).

Once again … this is also very normal. Latex is a very different material and it can take a little time for the mattress to break in and for your body to get used to a new sleeping surface and this is more the rule than the exception when you purchase a mattress that is different from the one that you are used to sleeping on (see post #3 here).

Not waking up with any pain or discomfort is a very good sign :slight_smile:

Phoenix

26

I’d be interested in comments about the bed frame if you want to share. What do you think of the quality, is the finish nice, once together does it seem solid and any other observations you have about the bed or the seller.

27

To the OP, yes, I would also be interested with your experience with both West Elm frame (and slats) and Sleeping Organic. I’m in a similar process (just put order for frame with West Elm) and was planning to go with Sleeping Organic once the frame delivery date is set.

And also your mattress protector, we have a newborn, and feel it’s necessary to protect the mattress a little more as (small house) the baby will be on the mattress a lot.

28

Thanks Phoenix for the encouraging words and confirming that what I’m experiencing is normal:) Night 2 was marginally better. I could fall asleep easier, but would wake up about every 2 hours. But unlike the first night I didn’t lay there a long time trying to get back to sleep when I did wake up. So that seems positive.

ekim & blackrider, the west elm frame is very nice. The mango wood is absolutely gorgeous! The finish is dark, but not so dark that it hides the beautiful wood grain. The slats are nice and sturdy and have a ribbon they are stapled to at equal intervals, so you don’t have to fidget with spacing them evenly. The frame as a whole Is quite sturdy, but the mounting hardware and pre drilled holes were not perfectly aligned, so my husband struggled a bit to put together. If you are not handy, it is worth having the in home setup. Also we had one minor problem, one of the mounting brackets had a broken weld. When contacting the company, they offerered to do an exchange of the entire bed frame! Apparently they can’t get individual replacement parts. So check all the hardware when you unpack it. In the end, we decided to just take the broken bracket to a local welder and have it fixed rather than go through the hassle of an exchange. The matching nightstands are back ordered, so still waiting on them.

Sleeping Organic has been great - very knowledgeable and no pressure on the phone. Really listened, and answered my specific concerns. Everything arrived promptly, and well packaged. I’m very happy with my vendor choice.

The mattress protector is great for me, I just want body oil and unlikely spill protection for adults. It isn’t water proof though, so something to be aware of with a baby. The material looks absorbent enough for my needs, but my priority was on breath ability over waterproofness.

29

Thanks OP for your attention. With the mattress protector, I noticed that you jumped from weighing Sleeping Organic vs Savvy Rest to ultimately going with European Sleep Design. Can you share that process, or anything interesting that led to that decision? I believed you mentioned concern about wool, so that probably knocked Sleeping Organic out. ESD permits washing and drying with the hot setting, which should come in handy with the dust mite concern.

Around how much was the ESD mattress protector? I looked on the website and it wasn’t obvious. I was looking at the mattress pad at CozyPure (among others).