Help me understand progressive

[phoenix]

Hi awoods,

First the easy part

I have reviewed the online verbage, and I think that it is unclear, so I wanted to post so others can benefit from what I learned. I have 3 unsplit king size layers. The layer exchange policy describes exchanges in terms of “layers”. So I assumed that exchanging 1 unsplit layer (e.g. my medium) for a 1 split layer (med/firm) would be 1 layer exchange. However, this is not the case. Sleeping Organic considers each half to be one “layer exchange”. So exchanging my m unsplit layer for a split m/f layer would count as 2 exchanges (the maximum allowed for free). This is disappointing. In light of this, not getting split layers in the first place was certainly a mistake.

I would agree with you that their terminology is somewhat unclear. Many component manufacturers offer a single free layer exchange (outside of some shipping costs) so I can understand what they were trying to express but I think it would be clearer if they were to say something like this …

[quote]1. During the first 90 days you may request a layer swap. We will compile your thoughts about your layer selections and make a recommendation for a different layer firmness. Our layer exchange policies are as follows:

a. We will ship one full layer OR two half layers free of charge (with half layers either shipped at the same time or with separate exchanges) but you are responsible for shipping charges back to Sleeping Organic.
b. An additional half layer OR an additional full layer can be purchased at 35% off the current layer price and you are only responsible for return shipping charges (My Comments: it would be impossible to take advantage of this at all the way it was written if “layer” means “half a layer” and you needed to exchange a full layer that wasn’t split).

Our goal is to create the best mattress possible for your sleep style and will do what ever possible to help achieve your perfect mattress.[/quote]

I also agree with you that when there is a chance that each side of a mattress may need to be layered different then ordering split layers would be the wiser choice.

Now on to the more complex part …

I was a little lost in the sheer volume and complexity of all the information in your topic and your somewhat unusual sleeping position along with your sensitivity to some very “fine” changes makes it difficult to know what would be suitable for you so your circumstances aren’t really “simple enough” to effectively deal with on a forum because these types of much more complex situations generally need more detailed phone conversations and some trial and error to resolve them. Having said that … I did have the time today to take a few hours to look back at your previous posts and do some analysis so I can make a few comments that may be helpful. I thought I’d do a recap first though to make sure I’m understanding the way things have progressed correctly. You also seem to have a very good “handle” on the effect of different changes so I’m not sure if any of this will be telling you anything you don’t already know.

1. You originally ordered (from bottom to top) Firm Dunlop, Medium Dunlop, and Soft Talalay all in single unsplit layers (according to this post and this post).

A recap of your results from this post …

On night 7 your “symptoms” on this configuration were “no lower back pain” or pain that appeared to be the result of sleeping in a swayback position but you had some hip pain and it appeared that one side of your hips was unsupported. You also had some knee pain.

My comments: This appears to indicate that you could use some additional softness, thickness, or contouring in your top layer.

2. Next you tried removing the quilted cover and sleeping directly on the latex with your stretch knit protector over it.

Your results from this post …

Wow - what a difference that makes! It is much, much softer feeling! The latex conforms to my body well, and fills in that gap under my hip. It feels much “cushier” that with the cotton/wool cover. The latex has a much different feel, my husband described it as jello like - kind of jiggly feeling. I had significantly less hip pain this morning when I woke up. However, it may have softened things a bit too much. I also had a small amount of lower back soreness, indicative of swayback. Also, my husband has been loving the original configuration and sleeping like a rock. But this morning, he said that he had some lower back pain (he’s a side sleeper). We’ll see if he can tolerate another night or two on this configuration, as I’d like to try it for a little bit longer. If the stretchy cover continues to be too soft, we could try making our layers top to bottom soft/firm/med to see if this provides us both the alignment support we need and gives me the surface softness I need.

My comments: It seems that this resolved the contouring and secondary support and eliminated the hip pain but ended up being a little too soft for you in terms of spinal alignment and there were some indications of lower back pain (although at this point it was only one night which isn’t really enough to assess any change). It also didn’t seem to provide good alignment for your husband based on visuals. It may have been worth trying this configuration for a little longer because sometimes what alignment “looks like” or only a single nights experience can be misleading and your actual sleeping experience can be a more effective way to assess the success of a combination.

3. Next you tried using the cover but unzipped in the hopes it would be “in between” the zipped cover and no cover at all.

Your results from this post indicated that you still weren’t sinking in far enough to support the raised hip. It was softer but not contouring enough.

4. Next you tried (top to bottom) S/F/M with no cover on top and only your protector.

Your results from this post seemed to indicate that at least for one night this seemed to work quite well. A week later though based on this post it didn’t seem to be working as well and still seemed to be too firm for you.

My comments: At this point if this configuration is too firm for you and it since it seems that the S/M/F with no cover is apparently too soft and the S/F/M is too firm (also with no cover) then the main options from here would be to either exchange for a softer comfort layer with XS/F/M or to do some additional fine tuning to this combination with even smaller increments than the normal “single step” changes which would work for most people and this would normally involve using thinner toppers (less than 3"). At this point you have “bracketed” two combinations that are relatively close together (with only the order of the bottom two layers reversed) where one appears to be too soft and one appears to be too firm so “in theory” your ideal would be somewhere in between these two.

To your credit you realized both of these as legitimate possibilities in your same reply which indicates that you seem to have a good understanding of the effect of different changes.

5. Next you tried experimenting with a home made shredded latex topper made from two pillows.

Your results from this post were somewhat mixed …

I have slept on this on the current configuration for 2 nights. I’m still considering what I’ve learned. My hips liked the extra loft and slightly more relaxed surface, it felt very safe for them when sleeping with one knee bent. The more relaxed surface also had the nice effect that the sheets on top stayed smoother and didn’t wrinkle all up so much. The shredded latex I have is very thin strips of all sorts of sizes from 2" long to tiny crumbs. It does not flow out of the way like I understand the lanoodle would (which I suspect I’d prefer), instead it compresses mostly in place. I was surprised actually by how little it moves around. The picture shows what it looked like after a night of sleeping on it, there is a small body impression, but not that much considering there are no baffles. Since it does not shift aside, it on top of the s layer below is too much thickness of soft material and I had some swayback pain from this configuration. It also was just a bit lumpy feeling which I didn’t really like. But I’ve gained some great data, to continue my fine tuning experimentation.

After sleeping on S/F/M without a topper or cover for a little longer your husband also seemed to feel that it may be “borderline” too soft but I didn’t see any mention of any specific symptoms that confirmed this so it may have only been a more subjective sense of things.

My comments: This sounds like it was just a little too much additional thickness/softness and as you suggested it would be worth considering removing some of the shredded latex as a further test. I also think that your suggestion to “approximate” a 6" mattress with a quilted cover and a separate topper was a good one along with this suggestion as well …

So my husband has liked the original s/m/f with quilted cover best. So I think another good experiment will be to go back to that, and try it with my makeshift shredded latex topper on top and see of that provides me the secondary support I need. Is so then the lanoodle topper might end up being a good solution for us.

6. Next you tried using the wool quilted cover underneath the soft top layer (approximating a 6" mattress with a separate topper) and using the shredded topper with a little less latex.

Your results after one day from this post seemed unclear …

Last night we put the wool quilted cover beneath the s layer. I could notice the firmer deep support from the addition of the wool cover. I’m letting my husband try it for a few days before he makes a judgement about it. Since I already know this configuration will not conform enough for me, I also took about half the stuffing out of my makeshift shredded latex topper so it is closer to what I’d guess is the amount in the lanoodle. It is now between 1 & 1 1/2" tall. Making the shredded latex layer thinner helped. I feel like I had less swayback, although I need a few more days to know if it is none vs. less.

After a week of this though it seemed from this post that both of you weren’t doing as well on this combination …

We slept on the previous configuration for a week. My husband didn’t like it as well as all 3 layers encased in the wool quilted cover. Treating the top layer as a topper was too soft for his lower back, so adding a topper to that configuration for him would not be good. I tried the makeshift shredded latex topper for about 5 days before concluding that it directly on the latex was too soft for my lower back even with less stuffing in it and going back to just the latex for a 2 days until the weekend when I could consider what to do next.

My comments: I’m assuming that the shredded late topper you used here was the thinner 1" to 1.5" version? If this is the case then this combination seems to be a little contradictory to me because if combination #4 was too firm for you then this layering with the same combination except a wool layer under the soft top layer “should” have made it a little firmer yet and it’s somewhat odd that with only the addition of a 1" - 1.5" shredded topper it became too soft after being “two” increments too firm (the original S/F/M which was already too firm and the wool making it even firmer). Was this really too soft for you?

7. Next you purchased a 1" polyfoam topper from OMF in 15 ILD.

Your results are in this post …

My comments: I’'m not clear about the layering that you were using this on. Was it the S/F/M without the cover or with the cover under the top layer (like #6 except with polyfoam instead of shredded latex)? This one is also a little bit odd as well because in one part of the post you were indicating that you may need some additional thickness to “fill in the gap” under your hip a little better and that 1.5" may be perfect but in another part of the same post you indicated that 1" may already be allowing your hips to sink in too much and causing lower back pain so there were conflicting indications that it may be both too thick and too thin at the same time. Of course it’s possible that an additional 1/2" that filled in the gap under your hip better would help with support and alignment and would solve the lower back pain in which case there would be no conflict (the lower back pain would be coming from the lack of support under one hip and possible twisting).

8. Next you tried the shredded latex topper on the same configuration as #7.

Your results are in this post.

My comments: You did mention that you used this with the S/M/F configuration but it’s not clear to me if this was with the cover somewhere in the mix or without the cover at all.

9. Next you tried the shredded latex topper (1.5") on S/F/M with the cover around it

Your results are in this post (the same post as the results for #8 ) and in this post which seemed to indicate that it was very close but perhaps just a touch too soft and that switching the medium bottom layer to a firm bottom layer may make “just enough” difference.

My comments: This sounds very promising but if you did do the layer exchange I don’t know how you would feel with sleeping on a mattress where your side had a topper and your husband’s side didn’t. Did you try the polyoam on this combination?

10. This is the layer exchange you are currently considering and haven’t tried yet which brings us up to date.

My overall comments.

It may also be worth considering that when you are this sensitive to some very small changes and the range of configurations that works for you is this narrow that your own needs and preferences change to some degree over the course of different days or weeks as you are more or less tired or your body is more or less stressed or circumstances change and this may be a limiting factor as well because a configuration that works well for some or even most of the time may not work as well at other times (see post #45 here) so there may be no perfect solution that works for you all the time.

I you can clarify some of the questions or comments I’ve bolded then I may be able to gain a few insights and add a few additional comments as well (time permitting because trying to analyze all of this is a very complex and slow process).

Phoenix