We slept on the previous configuration for a week. My husband didn’t like it as well as all 3 layers encased in the wool quilted cover. Treating the top layer as a topper was too soft for his lower back, so adding a topper to that configuration for him would not be good. I tried the makeshift shredded latex topper for about 5 days before concluding that it directly on the latex was too soft for my lower back even with less stuffing in it and going back to just the latex for a 2 days until the weekend when I could consider what to do next.
So this weekend I went to Denver Mattress and tried the 14ILD topper on the ichoice to evaluate whether or not exchanging my top later of latex from soft to extra soft might help. It was softer, but latex has enough push back that my knee doesn’t sink in well, even on extra soft. So it was a very useful test. I concluded that I should continue experimenting with toppers that have a more relaxed feel than solid latex. So we rearranged the bed back to s/m/f all inside the quilted cover. For those who are keeping track - the original configuration which my husband has liked best. I put the shredded latex topper on my side to see if it hits the sweet spot of more cushy for my knee and hip joints without letting me sink in so much I have swayback pain. This is the best nights sleep I’ve had so far! Getting very close!
I’m hesitant to buy the lanoodle topper since it is so expensive and isn’t returnable. So today I went to OMF and I bought a 1 inch thick polyfoam topper. It is 1.5lb density and 15ILD - super soft. It is the same material in the pillowtop I’d tried there that was high on the list of mattresses we were considering. And best of all, it was only $50 for a king size. For that price, it was an easy decision to try it next rather than ordering lanoodle. When I brought it home and compared it to the thickness of the shredded latex topper I slept on last night, it was very close. I haven’t slept on it yet, but laying on it briefly today it felt pretty good! And I’m hoping it is thin enough my husband will go right through it and still get the support he needs from the latex. Will report back after we sleep on it for a while.
I’m impressed with your incremental “small changes at a time” approach and the analysis you are making based on each configuration. Getting “very close” is good news
I’m looking forward to the results of the polyfoam topper as well.
Thanks again for keeping us up to date with your process and your results.
I’ve been sleeping on the polyfoam topper for several days now. My initial impression was that it didn’t conform to me as well as the shredded latex. However, I know polyfoam can soften substantially, so I have been knee walking across the surface each day to soften it up and it has already softened quite a bit and is conforming better, although I think the shredded latex still conformed more. The extra 1 inch is making a difference for my knee to sink into and fills the gap under my hip pretty well. I think it could be a shade thicker to fill in the gap completely, so I tried folding over the polyfoam topper to test laying on 2 inches of polyfoam (didn’t sleep that way, just did a quick test as I was setting things up). It was obvious immediately that 2" was too much. So I have narrowed in on exactly how much I need to sink in to the surface. I think that 1 1/2" inches would be perfect for my knee to sink into. It is a fine balance though. With the just the 1" polyfoam on top I have been waking up with lower back sway back pain that seems to have become a bit more each day. So I think that this combination is allowing my hips to sink down too much, although I am liking the surface feel. Before I make any modification to the deeper support layers, which will affect my husband (my layers aren’t split - but still time to exchange for split layers if needed), I am going to retry the shredded latex topper. I didn’t sleep on the shredded latex topper long enough on this configuration to know if swayback pain was an issue because I wanted to find out if he could tolerate a topper at all. Good news on that front, the extra 1 inch of polyfoam didn’t make any difference to my husband! So I’m hoping that the springyness of the shredded latex will be just enough push back on my hips to prevent swayback pain. If that works, then the lanoodle topper expense might be the best thing to do since the the s/m/f configuration with a topper could work for us both. So more incremental progress, learning as I go and more ideas to try…
Just an update on my continuing journey. I tried the makeshift shredded latex topper on the s/m/f configuration. It seemed marginally less prone to swayback pain than the polyfoam topper, the pushback of the shredded latex helped a little. But still, each day was getting worse. So on the weekend we changed the bed so the layers are s/f/m with the wool quilted cover, and I am using the makeshift shredded latex topper. After just 2 days on this configuration, already the swayback pain is diminishing, and the support under the gap in my hip is pretty good from the shredded latex. I will be giving this configuration a longer try, but based on my experimentation, I think that we will probably be doing a layer exchange for a split middle layer so my husbands side will be s/m/f and my side will be s/f/f. We had hoped to find one configuration that worked for both of us, but after trying out many, we have concluded that we might need a split configuration. For those who are considering purchasing, in retrospect, I wish I’d ordered a solid s layer, but split m & f layers. Would have given us more configurations to try without needing to do an exchange while still having a solid top layer.
Phoenix, what difference will having s/f/m vs. s/f/f make do you think? Going to s/f/f only requires exchanging one layer instead of 2. I think that either s/f/m or s/f/f will keep me from having swayback pain. But it seems like the s/f/f might make the side to side difference in the bed more noticeable (which we’d like to minimize). I want the extra support while sleeping, but don’t want to notice a distinct boundary when we cuddle up to watch tv. Anyone with such a split configuration like to comment on if it feels weird to lay in the middle of the bed for short amounts of time?
Even a split top layer can make a difference for some people because it allows for more “fine tuning” configurations on each side of the mattress than having a solid top layer. For example someone that was heavier may choose a medium over soft configuration if they wanted to “firm up” the feel of their sleeping surface (firmer layers tend to feel softer for heavier body types) while a lighter partner may choose to use the softer layer on top.
This would depend on the person themselves and their body type, sleeping style, and where they were in the sensitivity range between “princess and the pea” and “I can sleep on anything”. For many people … particularly if they were less sensitive or were lighter the difference in firmness on the bottom layer would make little difference and for others that were more sensitive or were in higher weight ranges where the compression of the deeper layers were more of a factor it would make a bigger difference. With these types of changes in the deeper layers that affect primary support more than secondary support and/or pressure relief any difference would likely be something you would feel more when you wake up in the morning than something you would feel when you go to bed at night. The only way to really know with any certainty how much difference smaller changes would make for any individual person would be based on their personal experience.
Most of the “feel” of a mattress comes from the upper layers and differences in the deeper layers would make less of a difference when you first go to sleep at night or over shorter periods of time (such as watching TV) than they would over the course of the night. Split firmness levels in deeper layers will also have a much more “gradual” and less defined boundary than the same differences between layers that are closer to the surface because the layers on top of the split firmness would “smooth out” the transition between them. Once again though … different people can be more or less sensitive to smaller differences between mattresses or between one side and another of the same mattress. I think it would be safe to say that for most people the difference in feel would be relatively small (and some may not notice it at all) and those where it would be an issue would be a much smaller minority.
[quote]changes in the deeper layers that affect primary support more than secondary support and/or pressure relief any difference would likely be something you would feel more when you wake up in the morning than something you would feel when you go to bed at night.
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Thanks Phoenix - this is very helpful! I am pretty happy with now with the initial feel when I lay down. The only remaining issue is a small amount of lower back soreness when I wake up from sleeping all night. I’m hoping that going to s/f/f from the current s/f/m will be just enough to get rid of that last lingering bit of waking up discomfort. It also makes me feel better that having the deeper layers vary isn’t likely to be very noticeable over shorter time periods. That’s exactly what I was hoping. Based on this discussion, I am going to move forward with requesting a layer exchange so that my side will be s/f/f and my husbands will stay at the original s/m/f. Thanks again for being such a valuable resource!
Well, it seems that I misunderstood the layer exchange policy. I have reviewed the online verbage, and I think that it is unclear, so I wanted to post so others can benefit from what I learned. I have 3 unsplit king size layers. The layer exchange policy describes exchanges in terms of “layers”. So I assumed that exchanging 1 unsplit layer (e.g. my medium) for a 1 split layer (med/firm) would be 1 layer exchange. However, this is not the case. Sleeping Organic considers each half to be one “layer exchange”. So exchanging my m unsplit layer for a split m/f layer would count as 2 exchanges (the maximum allowed for free). This is disappointing. In light of this, not getting split layers in the first place was certainly a mistake.
I had a quite detailed conversation with one of their representatives about my pain symptoms, and they were not convinced that this exchange alone would solve my pain issue (nor am I). I had figured it would be fine, since it would be a step in the right direction, and I could have one remaining layer exchange in case my surface layer also needed adjustment. But this is not the case. I am going to be in their physical area over the Thanksgiving holiday, and have inquired if I bring in all 3 of my layers, if they can split them. I’m waiting to hear about that and if it will count as a layer exchange, but it will be tricky scheduling wise at the very least as holidays are busy times. So one question - is there any disadvantage to having a glued solid layer split? Will there be a weird area where the glue is that you wouldn’t have if the layers had not been glued in the first place?
I continued to try the shredded latex topper + s/f/m and while it was better than topper + s/m/f, I was starting to have enough increasing lower back pain that I have for the moment switched back to my old bed. I am not willing to put my back at risk while I figure this out. It is interesting seeing how that feels after more than a month not using it. What I’ve realized is that the pillow top is super soft, but only about 2" thick and the underlying springs are quite firm. After only 3 days back on my old bed, all back pain is gone. I think that what I have learned is that my husband benefits fromt the s/m/f progression, but I seem to need an extremely soft surface layer I can sink into, but require that it be quite thin, with firm support underneath.
I’ve concluded that even s latex has too much pushback for me as a solid surface layer. I have ordered a lanoodle pillow to experiment with to find out how different the lanoodles feel from the shredded latex I have already been experimenting with. I’m hoping it will come soon. If that feels great, then I might be better off with a 3+3+2 model like the sleepez 9000 + a lanoodle topper so I can have the more relaxed surface feel and keep the comfort layer thin. I think part of the problem I’m having right now is that I want my surface layer to be soft, but shredded latex topper + 3 inch soft is the softness I want, but too thick. I am also considering a hybrid - buying a 2 layer latex mattress that can function as the core, and then having a local manufacturer build me a polyfoam pillowtop topper. My old pillowtop/innerspring was great for me, so a pillowtop topper over firm latex seems likely to work well for me. The old pillowtop bed we have doesn’t give my husband enough cushion for his shoulder. But if we had a latex core instead of springs, his side could have a medium progression layer.
Who knew finding a bed was so complicated!
So given how far away I am from identifying the correct latex layers I need, I am leaning toward doing a return on the sleeping organic mattress. It is a beautiful mattress, but just might not be right for me. With my new understanding of the layer exchange policy, I think that getting the layers that will work for me might end up being too expensive. It seems like my best bet right now might be to return the bed in person over Thanksgiving to avoid shipping costs, paying only the $99 restocking fee. I know I won’t be making the trip to their area again this year, so if I do a layer exchange and it doesn’t work for me, then I’d end up needing to pay all the shipping costs to return the mattress at the end of the trial period.
Can’t get everything right on the first try I guess. Thanks again for being such a great resource! I’m sure I will find the right solution, just not as quickly as I’d hoped.
I would agree with you that their terminology is somewhat unclear. Many component manufacturers offer a single free layer exchange (outside of some shipping costs) so I can understand what they were trying to express but I think it would be clearer if they were to say something like this …
[quote]1. During the first 90 days you may request a layer swap. We will compile your thoughts about your layer selections and make a recommendation for a different layer firmness. Our layer exchange policies are as follows:
a. We will ship one full layer OR two half layers free of charge (with half layers either shipped at the same time or with separate exchanges) but you are responsible for shipping charges back to Sleeping Organic.
b. An additional half layer OR an additional full layer can be purchased at 35% off the current layer price and you are only responsible for return shipping charges (My Comments: it would be impossible to take advantage of this at all the way it was written if “layer” means “half a layer” and you needed to exchange a full layer that wasn’t split).
Our goal is to create the best mattress possible for your sleep style and will do what ever possible to help achieve your perfect mattress.[/quote]
I also agree with you that when there is a chance that each side of a mattress may need to be layered different then ordering split layers would be the wiser choice.
Now on to the more complex part …
I was a little lost in the sheer volume and complexity of all the information in your topic and your somewhat unusual sleeping position along with your sensitivity to some very “fine” changes makes it difficult to know what would be suitable for you so your circumstances aren’t really “simple enough” to effectively deal with on a forum because these types of much more complex situations generally need more detailed phone conversations and some trial and error to resolve them. Having said that … I did have the time today to take a few hours to look back at your previous posts and do some analysis so I can make a few comments that may be helpful. I thought I’d do a recap first though to make sure I’m understanding the way things have progressed correctly. You also seem to have a very good “handle” on the effect of different changes so I’m not sure if any of this will be telling you anything you don’t already know.
You originally ordered (from bottom to top) Firm Dunlop, Medium Dunlop, and Soft Talalay all in single unsplit layers (according to this post and this post).
On night 7 your “symptoms” on this configuration were “no lower back pain” or pain that appeared to be the result of sleeping in a swayback position but you had some hip pain and it appeared that one side of your hips was unsupported. You also had some knee pain.
My comments: This appears to indicate that you could use some additional softness, thickness, or contouring in your top layer.
Next you tried removing the quilted cover and sleeping directly on the latex with your stretch knit protector over it.
My comments: It seems that this resolved the contouring and secondary support and eliminated the hip pain but ended up being a little too soft for you in terms of spinal alignment and there were some indications of lower back pain (although at this point it was only one night which isn’t really enough to assess any change). It also didn’t seem to provide good alignment for your husband based on visuals. It may have been worth trying this configuration for a little longer because sometimes what alignment “looks like” or only a single nights experience can be misleading and your actual sleeping experience can be a more effective way to assess the success of a combination.
Next you tried using the cover but unzipped in the hopes it would be “in between” the zipped cover and no cover at all.
Your results from this post indicated that you still weren’t sinking in far enough to support the raised hip. It was softer but not contouring enough.
Next you tried (top to bottom) S/F/M with no cover on top and only your protector.
Your results from this post seemed to indicate that at least for one night this seemed to work quite well. A week later though based on this post it didn’t seem to be working as well and still seemed to be too firm for you.
My comments: At this point if this configuration is too firm for you and it since it seems that the S/M/F with no cover is apparently too soft and the S/F/M is too firm (also with no cover) then the main options from here would be to either exchange for a softer comfort layer with XS/F/M or to do some additional fine tuning to this combination with even smaller increments than the normal “single step” changes which would work for most people and this would normally involve using thinner toppers (less than 3"). At this point you have “bracketed” two combinations that are relatively close together (with only the order of the bottom two layers reversed) where one appears to be too soft and one appears to be too firm so “in theory” your ideal would be somewhere in between these two.
To your credit you realized both of these as legitimate possibilities in your same reply which indicates that you seem to have a good understanding of the effect of different changes.
Next you tried experimenting with a home made shredded latex topper made from two pillows.
After sleeping on S/F/M without a topper or cover for a little longer your husband also seemed to feel that it may be “borderline” too soft but I didn’t see any mention of any specific symptoms that confirmed this so it may have only been a more subjective sense of things.
My comments: This sounds like it was just a little too much additional thickness/softness and as you suggested it would be worth considering removing some of the shredded latex as a further test. I also think that your suggestion to “approximate” a 6" mattress with a quilted cover and a separate topper was a good one along with this suggestion as well …
Next you tried using the wool quilted cover underneath the soft top layer (approximating a 6" mattress with a separate topper) and using the shredded topper with a little less latex.
Your results after one day from this post seemed unclear …
After a week of this though it seemed from this post that both of you weren’t doing as well on this combination …
My comments: I’m assuming that the shredded late topper you used here was the thinner 1" to 1.5" version? If this is the case then this combination seems to be a little contradictory to me because if combination #4 was too firm for you then this layering with the same combination except a wool layer under the soft top layer “should” have made it a little firmer yet and it’s somewhat odd that with only the addition of a 1" - 1.5" shredded topper it became too soft after being “two” increments too firm (the original S/F/M which was already too firm and the wool making it even firmer). Was this really too soft for you?
Next you purchased a 1" polyfoam topper from OMF in 15 ILD.
My comments: I’'m not clear about the layering that you were using this on. Was it the S/F/M without the cover or with the cover under the top layer (like #6 except with polyfoam instead of shredded latex)? This one is also a little bit odd as well because in one part of the post you were indicating that you may need some additional thickness to “fill in the gap” under your hip a little better and that 1.5" may be perfect but in another part of the same post you indicated that 1" may already be allowing your hips to sink in too much and causing lower back pain so there were conflicting indications that it may be both too thick and too thin at the same time. Of course it’s possible that an additional 1/2" that filled in the gap under your hip better would help with support and alignment and would solve the lower back pain in which case there would be no conflict (the lower back pain would be coming from the lack of support under one hip and possible twisting).
Next you tried the shredded latex topper on the same configuration as #7.
My comments: You did mention that you used this with the S/M/F configuration but it’s not clear to me if this was with the cover somewhere in the mix or without the cover at all.
Next you tried the shredded latex topper (1.5") on S/F/M with the cover around it
Your results are in this post (the same post as the results for #8 ) and in this post which seemed to indicate that it was very close but perhaps just a touch too soft and that switching the medium bottom layer to a firm bottom layer may make “just enough” difference.
My comments: This sounds very promising but if you did do the layer exchange I don’t know how you would feel with sleeping on a mattress where your side had a topper and your husband’s side didn’t. Did you try the polyoam on this combination?
This is the layer exchange you are currently considering and haven’t tried yet which brings us up to date.
My overall comments.
It may also be worth considering that when you are this sensitive to some very small changes and the range of configurations that works for you is this narrow that your own needs and preferences change to some degree over the course of different days or weeks as you are more or less tired or your body is more or less stressed or circumstances change and this may be a limiting factor as well because a configuration that works well for some or even most of the time may not work as well at other times (see post #45 here) so there may be no perfect solution that works for you all the time.
I you can clarify some of the questions or comments I’ve bolded then I may be able to gain a few insights and add a few additional comments as well (time permitting because trying to analyze all of this is a very complex and slow process).
Phoenix - thank you so much for taking the time to do such a careful review! That is so kind. I’m sorry I’ve been slow replying, stresses in other areas of my life have been piling up. I agree that I may be beyond what can be solved in a forum, and my expectation is not that you can solve my problem for me. But rather, you have equipped me with the tools to find a solution for myself, and I thank you for it. I’ll continue to post my experiences so they can benefit others. I don’t want to be a time sink for you though, any advice you have time to offer along the way is welcome, but I absolutely understand your time is limited. It took me a couple days to get back to my own thread after all!
Thanks for confirming that the Sleeping Organic layer exchange policy is vague.
To answer your bolded questions.
Yes, the thinner shredded latex topper. I too am astounded by how much difference the 1" of shredded latex made for me. That was quite unexpected. I tried it as long as I could tolerate, and the last night on this configuration I actually got up several times in the night to stretch out my lower back before attempting to go back to sleep. I had intended to give this configuration a week, but could not make it that long before the lower back pain was too much. While my hip joints liked the secondary support I got from my bent knee sinking easily into the surface, the overall amount that I was sinking down seemed to be too much for my lower back. Combination #4 seemed to be just a bit in the other direction - my lower back got enough support, but my knee didn’t sink into the surface quite enough. I think it wasn’t so much that it felt “hard” but that my bent knee didn’t like the pushback of the latex. So I suspect it is more about the resilience of the surface layer than “softness”.
Polyfoam topper + s/m/f with the quilted cover on. Configuration #1 + polyfoam topper
Shredded latex topper + s/m/f with the quilted cover. Configuration #1 + shredded latex topper
So the recap is #1 s/m/f with wool cover, 7 nights - husband’s favorite, not enough secondary support for me under hip joint #2 s/m/f with just stretchy protector, 1 night - both of us experienced lower back pain, husband’s posture looked like a u #3 s/m/f with wool cover unzipped, 1 night - Pretty much the same as #1 #4 s/f/m with just stretchy protector, 7 nights - husband experienced lower back pain and expressed dislike of the feel of sleeping directly on the latex, for me secondary support was good under my hip joint, but knee seemed not to like the resilience of latex pushback and I kept trying to twist away from it in my sleep. Lower back pain that was more “out of place” like resulted. Very hard to tell if I had any swayback pain due to the pain from rotation during sleep. #5 s/f/m with just stretchy protector, 2" shredded latex my side only, 2 nights - For husband, this is continuing #4. For me, knee liked the less resilient feel of the shredded latex, but I also had significant lower back pain both swayback, and the residual pain from #4. #6 s/f/m with wool quilted cover between s & f layers. Stretchy protector on top of s and 1" shredded latex topper on my side only, intended to try 7 days, only made it 5. Husband, felt the same as #4. Me, less swayback pain than #5, still a non-trivial amount. #7 s/m/f with wool cover and 1" polyfoam topper on both sides, 4 nights. Husband could not tell the difference between #1 and #7. Me, knee sinks in better than on solid latex, less than on shredded latex. Swayback pain was increasing each night. Oddly, I also was experiencing pain on the outside of my shoulders. #8 s/m/f with wool cover and 1" shredded latex topper my side only, 5 nights. For me, less swayback pain than #7, but still experiencing some. Shoulder pain went away. #9 s/f/m with wool cover and 1" shredded latex topper my side only, 5 nights. Husband likes s/m/f better. Me, first 2 nights swayback pain diminishing, then began increasing again. #10 s/f/m with wool cover and 1" polyfoam topper on both sides, 2 nights. Husband doesn’t really notice the 1" making a difference. For me, swayback pain continued to increase, to the point where I had to get up several times a night and stretch. Also pain in outside of shoulders returned. Still puzzled about that, but seems to be somehow related to the polyfoam topper.
At this point, I had lost my baseline and pain levels and sleep deprivation was making it impossible to continue learning. So I returned to my old mattress to let my body reset. I have been on my old mattress for 7 nights and now am back to no pain in hips or lower back, and am much less sleep deprived.
Thinking back across all of these experiments, I’ve learned several important things
My husband I have different enough needs that we do need a split configuration to both have optimal PPP. This was a surprise, I had expected us to be able to find something that worked for us both.
My odd sleeping position is not compatible with the resilience of a solid latex surface layer, although I enjoy the springyness of latex under a more relaxed topper. Again, this was wholly a surprise to me.
I think the 3" soft layer must be right on the edge of too soft for my lower back, which seems to be the only reason I can think of why adding a 1" topper pushes me over the edge in regard to swayback pain. I have done a few short tests of putting the 3" soft layer directly on the floor, and trying the toppers on top of it. The 3" by itself feels ok, but the addition of either topper feels a bit iffy on my lower back when laying there for half hour or so. I haven’t slept a full night this way, but it was helpful to test how the layer felt in isolation.
One of the things that has taken me by surprise is finding out how sensitive I really am to small changes. My old mattress has served me well for 15 years, and I’ve never experienced mattress induced pain with it. I could of course go back to a innerspring + polyfoam, but while the old mattress was great for me, it isn’t so good for my husband. He doesn’t complain about it, but I’d like to find a solution that works better for him. I think that if we have a split latex core (bottom 6") and a comfort layer that includes a surface modifier to reduce the resiliency of the surface, that this will be achievable. Working out the comfort layer will be a bit tricky, but seems achievable. I’m not out of ideas yet=)
I have decided that I am going to do a return, for several reasons. First, the layer exchange policy isn’t very compatible with the unsplit model I’ve selected and I think that getting to a model that suits me is going to be too expensive with that policy. Second, it seems clear that my body is not liking solid latex as the surface layer, so the mattress isn’t as compatible with my needs as I’d hoped. And lastly, the testing I need to do to figure out precisely what I need is time consuming and interferes with sleep. Sleep deprivation was taking its toll and starting to impact too many other areas of my life. And the time pressure to figure it out before the mattress trial period ran out was just too stressful. So I’m removing the time pressure, will work on reducing stress in other areas of my life, and will return to selecting a mattress when I can once again focus on it. I still have my old mattress which is in an acceptable state, so there is no reason to rush myself.
So I’ll continue my journey by taking a less rushed approach to figuring out what comfort layer I want. The lanoodle pillow I ordered has not arrived yet. When it does, I will make it into a makeshift topper to test. With my testing thus far, I have liked the relaxed but still springy feel of the shredded latex topper I already tried. What I did not like about it was that it is “fiddly”. After 5 nights sleeping on it, the latex moves around inside it so that it is lumpy. That wouldn’t be a big deal if it was easy to smooth out. However, it is quite difficult to flatten out again because the individual shreds stick to each other so much. I’m hopeful that the lanoodles being of uniform shape will be easier to smooth out.
Thanks for the additional information and clarification … and for the concise recap of all the configurations. In looking at things I may have some suggestions that may be helpful.
While it’s true that I do have limited time … I actually enjoy the analysis that can be involved in helping to “solve” some of the more complex issues that can often be involved in more challenging circumstances so when I can I’m certainly happy to help provide any insights to the extent that I can pick up on something that may be helpful. I have to say once again that your clear and concise descriptions and the incremental and comparative approach you are taking is very insightful and impressive and makes analysis much easier.
In my previous reply I mixed up part of #4 with part of #5 in my analysis and my comparison with #6 was comparing your results in #4 (too firm) but was using the layering in #5 (which was too soft) so my misreading using the results of one combination and the layering of another (not realizing that I was mixing them up) was the reason for the contradiction that I “thought” I saw. Comparing your comments and the layering and description only of #5 with #6 the way I should have makes much more sense …
So to clarify my comments that compares #6 to #5 (instead of comparing a mix between #4 and #5 to #6) …
This also appeared to be too soft but was less so than #5 which now makes sense since the cover under the top layer would have resulted in more firmness and the thinner shredded latex topper also would have resulted in more firmness (which was the two “increments towards firmness” I was mentioning). The only surprising thing here was that they weren’t “more” different from each other since I would have guessed that #6 was more “in the range” than it was.
Comments about the polyfoam topper.
In both cases the shoulder pressure that you felt with the polyfoam topper was probably because it would be firmer than the shredded latex topper and it would also be less point elastic than the shredded latex topper and could also affect the contouring of the layers underneath it and allow for less penetration in your lower hip and shoulders which could result in the pressure you were feeling. This would make sense because in both instances where you used it the shoulder pain wasn’t there when you used the shredded latex instead of the polyfoam with the same configuration underneath it. A convoluted polyfoam topper in the range of 1" to 1.5" may work better than the solid topper in your case.
This certainly makes sense to me.
Before you return it though it may be worth considering some configurations with “makeshift” zoning along the lines of the suggestions in post #11 here if you have the time. It would give you a chance to assess the difference that zoning could make (if you try this I would start with center third zoning) which may allow you to use some of the configurations that were slightly too soft but otherwise seemed to work well and may also result in a similar configuration in the same thickness which works for your husband as well. It would also give you a good chance to see how zoning may affect things for future reference.
The combinations that I think would be worth considering for center zoning would be …
s/f/m with wool cover and 1" shredded latex topper on both sides.
This was slightly too firm for your husband without the shredded latex topper and he liked the s/m/f with wool cover better but the additional firmness for him would likely be offset with the thin shredded latex topper.
For you this seemed to be close and was perhaps the closest of the combinations (pain diminishing and then coming back) and with the addition of center zoning it may "push your hips up) into the range that would work for you.
The center zoning may also be fine for your husband if you extend it across the entire mattress. I would consider the center zoning in between the soft and firm layer or alternatively for a slightly smaller effect under the firm layer.
s/m/f with wool cover and 1" shredded latex topper
This may also be suitable for both of you even though this combination is softer but once again you could try the zoning under either your side or both. My comments would be similar to the previous one and it would allow for more secondary support with the zoning once again “pushing up” your hips to alleviate the swayback position.
You bet! I needed it too! Easier to look at all in one spot.
Thanks! Sometimes my methodical nature comes in handy - lol.
Makes much more sense after your clarification.
I actually debated about getting a 1.5" convoluted polyfoam topper when I bought the 1". I’m still trying to reconcile your description with how it felt. I think the part I’m struggling to visualize is that the pain was on the outside of the shoulder (the part that I’d be laying on if I was a side sleeper). It just seems like such a strange place to be sore when sleeping on my stomach. The way I am visualizing it is that the polyfoam was bending around me like a taco shell (of course not nearly so pronounced). Whichever direction my head is facing, I sleep with the arm on that side bend with my hand by my face. Now if I put my arm in that position while sitting upright and push my elbow back a bit farther than it wants to go, then it results in tensing in the muscles in the outer shoulder - right where I was sore. So that taco shell like shape would then be pushing my elbow up. Whereas with the looser shredded latex my elbow was able to sink into more. Does that seem like a reasonable visualization? So convoluted foam might help that by being softer? I did notice when looking at the construction of the OMF mattresses that the foam layer right under the quilting layer is the convoluted one.
I was already thinking about what else I might learn before I returned…and I tried a couple of nap length experiments over the course of the weekend.
I wanted to explore the notion of the 3" soft layer being too thick for me. I had already tried laying on it directly on the floor, and found that I do not bottom out on it.
I tried the 1" shredded latex on top of f/m, leaving the soft out of the mix. I was just folding open half of the mattress, so I didn’t have either the wool cover or the stretchy protector in use. I just put a sheet over the layers and tried laying on it for about half an hour. This was surprisingly comfortable, and actually very close to the feel of my old pillowtop mattress (whose comfort layer is just a bit thicker). My lower back seemed fine, but I was getting a bit too much pressure points on hip bones and rib cage.
So I then tried 1" shredded latex, 1" polyfoam, then f/m, with just a sheet over all. This was quite comfortable. This configuration is slightly softer than my pillowtop bed. I napped this way for about 40 minutes, drifting in and out of sleep. At the end of that time, my lower back was just a bit achy. This gives me a lot of ideas. Maybe 1 1/2" of shredded latex over firm might work well, or maybe 1" of shredded latex over 1" of soft or med latex that is just a bit more resilient than the polyfoam might work well for me.
Unfortunately, I read your reply after I had already returned the shredded latex to pillow form, as I assume the pillows will need returned with the mattress. However, I did do a bit more experimentation with the polyfoam to explore the idea of zoning a bit.
I tried the 1" of polyfoam over f/m, with a sheet on top. This was not too bad, but not as comfortable as the 1" of shredded latex over f/m. My knee doesn’t sink into the polyfoam as well as it does with the shredded latex. But similar to the 1" of shredded latex/f/m, this arrangement was just a shade firmer than my pillowtop bed.
I then doubled over the polyfoam so I had 2" polyfoam over f/m. I layed on it for about 20 min. It was very comfortable, softer than my pillowtop bed. But I started having a bit of lower back aching. So I tried adding in some makeshift zoning. I placed a double thickness yoga mat between the polyfoam and the f layer, just under my pelvis. This made quite a bit of difference. Kind of surprising how much I sink down into the firm layer. I napped that way for about 30 or 40 min. It was definitely an improvement, and I didn’t feel any lower back discomfort in that short amount of time. I also learned a way that might be a better indicator of if a combination is suitable for my lower back. Figuring out what makes my lower back sore is hard to judge, since I don’t feel it until I’ve spent quite a while laying there. But one of the things that has felt weird is the feeling that my thighs aren’t sinking in. But what I’ve come to realize is that I think this feeling means my legs are sinking in fine, but my pelvis and torso are sinking in too far relative to them. Since that’s something I can feel right away, maybe it will help me figure out positions my lower back will like without needing to test each one overnight.
Lastly, I tried 1" polyfoam, wool cover unzipped, s/f/m with the yoga mat between the s & f layers to see if I could tell the difference. I absolutely could feel the difference, and it was an improvement. A bit hard to say how much, since by that point I had my napping quota for the afternoon & was starting to lose perspective. I layed that way for maybe 10 minutes. Not really long enough for a definitive test, but useful to know I could feel the difference. And lastly, I removed the yoga mat and did an immediate comparison - my hips definitely sink down a noticeable amount further.
I’ve gained a lot of good data to think about. I learned that I find a very soft but thin comfort layer over a much firmer layer quite comfortable, and am somehow surprised by how thin the comfort layer on my old bed really is - it always seemed quite plush to me. The zoning experiments made a difference, but I’m somewhat unclear if this indicates I need zoning or if a non-zoned but firmer core like firm/extrafirm rather than firm/med might be what I need. When I have more time, I will likely experiment with folding over the 1" polyfoam to 2" to see how that feels directly on the floor, to find out if my shoulders bottom out, or only my hips.
And it seems that Tuesday my lanoodle pillow will arrive. I’m hoping it will be just before I need to pack up this mattress for return the next day so I can try lanoodles on it for one last data point.
I have spend more hours than I care to admit twisting and contorting my body in different positions trying to “mimic” different types of tension, pain or discomfort that people may experience and to see what types of position adjustments may help. Of course my body is different from others and my various joints may be more or less flexible than others so the same position may not produce the same type of symptoms in me than it does for someone else and in many cases even a small variation in position can make a significant difference in they type of symptoms it produces but it can also lead to insights that can be helpful.
If you move your hand further away from your face you will notice that it will restrict your shoulder more (it’s more difficult to lift up your hand or your elbow) and if you move your elbow lower closer to your body you will find your shoulder has more freedom of movement. Some people will notice something similar when they sleep on their back with their hands behind their heads because the shoulder is outside of its “neutral” alignment when the arms are raised or the shoulders are pushed backwards and is much more prone to circulatory restriction or to nerves being pinched. With thicker/softer comfort layers the torso will also sink in more relative to the lighter arms which can also push the shoulders backwards.
Your explanation sounds very plausible to me with the symptoms you are experiencing and the fact that it happens with the polyfoam and not with the softer shredded latex.
Yes … I would suspect that convoluted polyfoam would be somewhat in between the two.
[quote]I wanted to explore the notion of the 3" soft layer being too thick for me. I had already tried laying on it directly on the floor, and found that I do not bottom out on it.
I tried the 1" shredded latex on top of f/m, leaving the soft out of the mix. I was just folding open half of the mattress, so I didn’t have either the wool cover or the stretchy protector in use. I just put a sheet over the layers and tried laying on it for about half an hour. This was surprisingly comfortable, and actually very close to the feel of my old pillowtop mattress (whose comfort layer is just a bit thicker). My lower back seemed fine, but I was getting a bit too much pressure points on hip bones and rib cage.[/quote]
This would all make sense as well. Stomach sleepers generally need a thinner comfort layers that are “just enough” to provide pressure point relief to pressure points such as the hips, iliac crest, knees, and rib cage and with more than this there is a risk of sleeping in a swayback position with hyperlordosis of the lumbar spine. With your style of stomach sleeping that isn’t quite flat you may need a little thicker comfort layer than would be “normal” to allow a little more sinking in under the side of your body that is in firmer contact with the mattress (and more support under the raised side of your hips) so the 1" shredded topper may not be quite enough but is moving in the right direction (thinner comfort layers over firmer layers underneath them) because it allows the firmer layers to “stop” your pelvis before it sinks in too much. Zoning can also compensate for the tendency of the pelvis to sink down too far and can compensate for comfort layers that would otherwise be too thick.
Your other experiments with thinner comfort layers (but a little thicker than the 1" shredded latex) and with zoning pretty much speak for themselves. They would all be “in the range” of a design that could work “in theory” but with your sensitivity … the type, firmness, and thickness of the comfort layers will play a more important role because small incremental changes seem to make a significant difference for you.
This also makes good sense to me and if it’s a consistent pattern that you’ve noticed then it could save you a lot of “testing time” and be a good “pointer” to suitable configurations.
I think that zoning may not be “necessary” if you have the thickness/softness of the comfort layers and the firmness of the layers underneath them “just right” … but in situations like yours it can also be particularly helpful because they allow more “room for error” in the thickness and softness of the comfort layers with less risk of the pelvis sinking in too far so it would give you a wider range of layering that could work well for you.
Stomach sleepers will often also benefit from sleeping on a thin pillow under the pelvis lower abdomen area as well.
Your ongoing experiments are always very interesting to me and are certainly a great example of the difference that some very small increments of fine tuning can make.
You may have a new career waiting for you in mattress design when all of this is over
lol - I bet you have spent a fair amount of time trying to visualize different issues people experience. Thanks a lot for confirming that my assessment seems like a reasonable one.
This part was where theory meeting practice was kind of surprising to me. I really did not expect how critical it would be to be exact about “just enough”.
Thanks for clarifying. That makes a lot of sense!
Before I returned the mattress, I did receive my cozypure lanoodle pillow so I had time for a short experiment with it. It is significantly softer and less lumpy feeling than the shredded latex in the sleeping organic pillow. Primarily, I think this has to do with the shape of the lanoodles. So for anyone wondering, the shape really does seem to make a significant difference in the feel. Both materials are high quality, and individual pieces of each are very soft, but the lanoodles don’t stick to each other as much since they are all round, so they flow better and don’t clump up so much. Also, I’d say that these smell nicer (not that the other smelled bad) but more vanilla like and less rubbery. I received a queen size pillow by mistake (they credited me the difference - no issue), however it did mean that I had slightly less material to experiment with. I put the lanoodles into a similar folded over sheet as my last makeshift topper, and it was only about 1/2" thick when spread out over the twin size. I moved them so that the head and feet areas had less noodles, so that I could have about 3/4" of noodles under my spine and knees for testing. I tried it both on the f/m layers and on the 1" polyfoam/f/m. I like the feel of the lanoodles better than the other shredded latex. The surface feels less lumpy. Also they were a lot easier to smooth out into a relatively uniform distribution. Regarding lower back alignment, my results were similar to those with the other shredded latex topper.
I think I’ll leave that to you=)
The holiday season is such a busy time, hard to find time to think about this. But I tried another experiment with the lanoodle makeshift topper. It on top of 1" of polyfoam on the floor was not enough cushioning to be comfortable. However, folding over the polyfoam so I had the shredded latex (about 3/4") thick and 2" of polyfoam on top of carpet was very comfortable. I took a nap that way. I had no lower back pain, and it was very cushy for my knee and hips. I was essentially just borderline bottoming out on it. So I think that tells me pretty accurately that 2 3/4" of soft material is about my upper limit for maintaining good lower back alignment.
Now I’m considering what my next step is based on my experimentation. I’ve been looking at Cozypure’s mattresses and am seriously considering them. I had not considered them initially because I had thought that I didn’t want zoning, and I thought that I’d want Talalay. But as it turns out I like Dunlop as my support layers and zoning might be helpful for meeting my husband and I’s mixed needs. The convoluted top layer they have is also pretty unique. I wonder if it might provide a relaxed enough surface layer for me? I’d guess not, but would be really nice if it did. The down side to them is that there isn’t one at all close to me so it is hard to guess how they might feel, and they are not returnable. There isn’t anywhere local that has either convoluted latex or zoned latex to test, so I’m having a hard time deciding what model might be the best fit. The other vendor I’m considering is the SleepEZ 9" model (3+3+2) with a lanoodle topper. The most similar from CozyPure’s lineup is the cush (6" zoned core + 2" convoluted). With both I’d likely want the lanoodle topper, and wonder if the topper plus a 2" comfort layer is going to be too much soft for my lower back alignment. I’m thinking about whether I should order the lanoodle topper first, so I can touch and feel it to better narrow in on how thick of a comfort layer I could pair with it successfully. I also think it is very cool that Cozypure has their beds in a couple hotels - might see if I can arrange a trip to one of those locations for some overnight testing before comitting to a non-returnable purchase.
I used to do some cross country bicycle touring and one of my pet peeves was when the bearings on my bicycle weren’t absolutely “perfectly” adjusted. If they were just a touch too tight then the bearings (especially the wheels) didn’t roll or rotate as freely as I wanted and if they were just a touch too loose then I was never comfortable knowing there was a tiny wobble. Part of the “joy” of riding it was how I felt knowing that every moving part was finely tuned and was working as well and as smoothly as it possibly could.
Your experiences and mattress testing remind me of those times where nothing but a mattress that is “perfectly tuned” to you will do
The consistency of the size of latex particles affect how they “pack down” and settle and if there is a combination of smaller and larger pieces then the smaller pieces will arrange themselves inside the spaces of the larger pieces and the overall result will be a firmer pillow (see post #20 here). The Lanoodles are more consistent in their size and would have more “spaces” in between the pieces and would also be softer than more solid chunks or pieces of latex.
“Floor testing” of layers can provide a very useful guideline but I would also keep in mind that the firmer support layers underneath the comfort layers will also compress to some degree when you lie on the mattress so this would relate more to having a very firm support core that had very little flex underneath your comfort layers (although even an ultra firm support core would still compress more than the floor).
Zoning is certainly one of the approaches that can be helpful for a couple that have different needs and preferences. There is more about this in the first part of post #2 here.
Their convoluted top layer would be softer than a solid layer and would also have “some effect” on how relaxed or resilient the sleeping surface was but the effect wouldn’t be as much as a lanoodles topper or wool quilting.
You have a very narrow range that seems to be ideal for you and because it will depend on the specific firmness of the comfort layer and the support core underneath it and because even the specifics of the convoluting can make a difference (see post #2 here) I don’t think that it would be possible to really know with any certainty outside of your actual sleeping experience.
I’ve been following along with your experimentation as best I can…
If I may - with one of the original configurations (possibly the latex mattress as ordered?), you said that everything was fine, except for the unsupported hollow under the pelvis / upper thigh of the leg that is bent up. From a distance, you seem to be trying to get a perfect configuration for all of the other points of your body (and your husband’s) just to fix this one spot. Is that necessary?
I noticed that a couple of times, Phoenix suggested a small pillow or support under that hip to fill the gap, but I didn’t notice any results from you trying it (and otherwise, you’ve been very thorough!).
The reasons that jumped out at me is:
as an engineer as well, I’ve often had to check that I’m not trying to use convoluted high-tech to address a problem when there is a simple, low-tech fix. (you’ve heard the story of NASA spending $$$ to design a space pen that still works in microgravity, where the Russians used a pencil…) I’m not saying that I’ve avoided that trap, just that I’m aware it’s there…
and, ta-da
2) I have slept the same way you do, and to stop my hips from rotating through lack of support (same problem you appear to be having), I stuck the corner of a thin pillow under there. It seemed to work for me, and I can be prone to back complaints if I’m negligent for too long. I placed the pillow as if it was a body pillow, but it wasn’t long enough to hug, and didn’t extend below my leg, just occupied that space between upraised knee, stomach and my bent elbow. You may be able to get similar results with one of your small, made-up pillows. Adjusted to accommodate movement during sleep, etc.
Now the caveat: I’m not you.
I fully realize that.
But it seems like such an easy test, and unless my eyes glazed over early on ;-), I missed where you tried it.
If I learned anything from doing labs years ago, it’s that getting the full data up front is much easier than trying to “cook” it later (I mean, “revisit” the gaps)
Off-Mattress-Topic, but applicable and related to the posts:
Speaking of testing, I don’t know your professional background obviously, but just in case it’s interesting to you (and you don’t already know the material), given your post thread here, you may enjoy this online course on Design of Experiments (free, self-guided):
Try the “Preview Lectures” button - Weeks 1 & 2 are the most bang-for-the-quick-buck
Among other things, you can now create a testable formula for the “optimal” ginger cookie…or latex mattress?
It also looks like you can click through to the instructor’s profile on that page for more material.
No, I am not affiliated with any of those people, and none of those institutions or people will ever know or try to thank me for pointing you to them. You may not either - be warned, if you’re in the right frame of mind, this course (or others) can consume the next few weeks’ remaining waking hours that mattress-hunting doesn’t.
But at least you’ll be able to define, track and quantify your trials!
This makes perfect sense. I agree isolation testing only provides part of the data. I was having trouble telling how much I was sinking down with all the layers in play, so I found it helpful to figure out what is the maximum amount of sinking down my lower back will accept. Then I’ll look to identify a solution where I am within that tolerance with all the layers, including the support layers in play.
The comparison to wool quilting is really helpful. Wool quilting didn’t add enough of a relaxed feel for me, so it seems likely that the convolution would not either.
MatRest - fair point! I looked back, and did not write down my experience with this on the forum. I did give it a try while I still had the latex mattress, and it does resolve the pain from the unsupported gap. However, from a preference point of view, it was not to my liking. I dislike needing to reposition the pillow every time I reposition. I am kind of a light sleeper, and if I wake up too much when changing position, then I have a hard time getting back to sleep. So I found that either I’d remember to move the pillow and be unable to get back to sleep for a bit, or I’d be sleeping hard enough that I shifted positions without waking up and moving the pillow, in which case it then wasn’t in the right spot to give me support anymore. Thanks for sharing your experience! How did you train yourself to reposition the pillow when you shift positions? Did you have an adjustment period before that felt more natural?
I am an engineer with an uncharacteristic artistic side. It makes me methodical, and in search of elegant solutions. One of the surprises of this journey is that it is difficult to find an equivalent in latex that works for me as well as my current innerspring/polyfoam. If I were single I’d likely just buy another high quality innerspring mattress. It is simple, and works great for my odd sleeping posture without any need for toppers, extra pillows etc. The second surprise of the learning I’ve gained via this great site is what a poor match the current innerspring/polyfoam really is for my husband. All the things that make it great for me as a stomach sleeper, make it a poor choice for him as a side sleeper with wide shoulders. He would likely just put up with the same thing again if it is what I want, but the perfectionist in me feels I can do better=) While difficult to predict since I’m outside the “norm”, finding the right combination seems possible, with a reasonable likelihood that the end result will be elegant.
A: I didn’t. I don’t sleep on my stomach, except for special occasions - i.e. crashed out on the futon somedays. And then it will be at the edge, so my knee can hang over the edge and avoid the twist we’re talking about. If I do sleep on my stomach, it’s that position though, and I also notice that it’s a “deeper” sleep - not necessarily better, just harder to come out of.
I do use a pillow though - under my knees if I’m on my back, or between my knees if I’m on my side. That was recommended for a family member who has “official” back issues, so I adopted it too. I do notice that I’ll wake up in the morning with both legs on top of the pillow if on my side, which can’t be good, but I survive. i.e. I have the same issues with not keeping on the pillow, etc. as you mention, but I sleep a lot sounder, and as long as my back is in a good state, then what I do during the day has more of an effect on it than sleeping. When I first lay down, I look for good positioning so that my hips aren’t tilted and I don’t get compressed on the one side, which does lead to problems. The pillow-between-the-knees alleviates that. So I use the pillow for comfort when I’m first going to sleep, after that it’s out of my hands. Proper stretching and care during the day is key for me. (try physio once or twice to get a good set of exercises you can do at home. Oh, and then do them.)
I don’t envy your search. Trying to home in on the “perfect combination” can be tough. I’m just at the beginning of that now, kind of by accident. I’ll put my questions up here soon in their own thread.
You mentioned perfectionism… Again, as an engineer, you may have seen these, but you can apply this theory to the attempt at perfecting any process, not just automation:
(mouse over the image for more text)
Instead of “time saved”, you can substitute “comfort gained / pain reduced”, and integrate over all future nights for the life of the mattress (a not-insignificant sum), vs. the work involved in finding a perfect mattress compared to a “good enough” topper or similar.
Again, with the joint caveats of:
My current mattress is 15 yrs old and I haven’t started my upgrade process yet.
I’m not you.
This is a classic engineering problem. Marketing has designed a perfect product in theory, and now engineering has to produce it, under the constraints of: availability, budget, and sometimes, reality.
MatRest - thanks for the insight on your pillow use. You are lucky that you only need it for initial comfort, not continued alignment over the course of the night. When I was experiencing lower back pain on the latex matress it was definitely from sleeping, not daytime activities. It stood out because it was highly unusual for me to have any lower back pain. I’m certainly an advocate of exercise and stretching, it is very beneficial. My fitness program is aimed at maintaining long term health and fitness. However, the sleep induced pain was not mitigated by any amount of stretching or exercise. They helped some to loosen up, but I’d just be getting to a point where pain was starting to lessen by time to go to bed again. So over the course of days, pain levels kept increasing. However, since this was highly unusual for me, it was easy to make the correlation to the mattress.
Your links didn’t seem to come through for me. But this was entertaining from an engineering perspective to hear it in these words. The sum of not being in pain for the next 10-20 years is worth a lot of up front research time to me=) Good luck as you begin your search!
Sleeping in the wrong position will cause trouble, but the pillow isn’t a critical factor. (can’t remember if that’s an official term from the Experiments course I mentioned, or not )
I am starting to feel pain from a mattress now though - a too-stiff memory foam sales job…
I’m going to write that up now, before I get distracted again with all the info on this site.
BTW, I fixed the links. I’m still new to this editing system…
