Still cannot figure out how to start a thread so I am going to post here. Bought the Arizona Mattress Ultimate Hybrid in Plush. I am a stomach and side sleeper, 5’7" and weigh 130lbs. I am glad I bought the plush because it is pretty firm. I actually like it and the support except for when I sleep on my side, it hurts my hips and I think it is the coil system. I emailed Arizona Mattress Co. and they recommended purchasing a soft talalay in either all natural or blended (they leaned towards the natural since it is softer). My concern is that it will make it too soft then. The reason I am fearful of this is because before we purchased the Ultimate Hybrid my husband and I drove quite a distance to a Savvy Rest store to try out latex. They had latex toppers on some of their beds and they seemed way too soft that we sunk right in. I am not sure what they were but they were VERY soft. I don’t want to feel that way. Just want a little bit more cushion for my hip but still enough firmness for sleeping on my stomach. Also, do I need a cover or will it fit inside my existing mattress cover? I know their bamboo/cotton cover seemed to firm up the latex. So basically, I am wondering what topper I should put on. Talalay? Natural? Blended? Dunlop? Firmness?
Just to add to this, I think the Savvy Rest topper was all natural and was 3 inches (from what I see on their website). I know the Arizona Mattress topper recommended to me was 2 inches.
Hi Jill71rdh.
It looks like you are in the latest stages of finetuning your mattress and your experience with SavvyRest’s toppers is helpful … they offer two 3" toppers both Talalay (NR) and Organic Dunlop and it looks like you tried their very soft vitality topper which I wouldn’t recommend for a prone sleeper. You may wish to review the guidelines in this Sleep Positions Article so that you avoid hyperextension in a swayback position that can cause back issues. You are correct the difference between a 2" and a 3" comfort layer can be quite dramatic and also depends on a person’s weight, shape, and sleeping positions. Side sleepers will notice it more (they are more likely to go “through” a thinner comfort layer) and feel more of the properties of the layers below it. The thinner a layer is … the more you will feel the properties of the layers below it. Thickness and softness are connected and a thicker topper will “act” softer for most people.
I would certainly follow Ken’s advice and select a 2" latex (or even less) instead of the 3" especially in combination with the plush version of the Ultimate Dreams and your stomach sleeping postition which would need a firmer sleeping surface. Also In your case being a thinner and lighter body type, you could also do better with thinner and softer comfort layers than heavier body types. The topper will add to the comfort layers that are already part of the mattress. You can read some of the topper guidelines in post #8 here that may be useful as a guide.
Yes you would need a separate cover for your topper. While Ultimate Dreams’ cover is zippered it wouldn’t accommodate the insertion of extra 2" latex layer (UD has a 12" cover encasing 8" pocket coil, 3" latex comfort layer and the remaining 1" accounts for quilted wool/bamboo cover).
Dunlop would feel firmer and it is denser than its Talalay counterpart in the same ILD. Blended latex (such as 70% SBR and 30% Natural latex or NR) is not as elastic and resilient as Natural latex and not as stretchy. SBR or blend is more abrasion resistant and can be made more resistant to aging degradation, NR is more expensive than SBR. It really all comes down to your preferences and particular needs. The decision of “what” to choose in terms of either a mattress or the balance between comfort/pressure relief and support/alignment that may be suitable for a specific person is always up to the only person who can feel what they feel on a mattress and best left to personal testing and your own experiences or more detailed discussions with Arizona Premium. Overall you seem to be on the right track with adding a bit of plushness to your mattress but being careful to not compromise the support you need for your prone sleeping.
I’ll be interested in learning about your final decision.
Phoenix
What I don’t understand is that the mattress already feels to firm and it is a plush (so 3 inch soft talalay on top of the coils) so how would adding 2 more inches of soft talalay not just feel the same? Especially if the topper is put in a bamboo/wool cover like the mattress (which seems to firm it up more) ?
I also just noticed that Ken recommended the blended as it is softer than the natural. Maybe that will help when it is put inside the cover?
Hi Jill71rdh
Softness and thickness are related and work together. All else the same, a thicker mattress will “act” softer for most people. In your current configuration with the 3" soft Talalay comfort layer, it is possible that you are feeling through and bottoming out to the firm support layer below. By adding 2" to the existing 3" you will have 5" of foam to “travel” through before feeling the firmer layer below so it will isolate you a little more from the firmness of the layer below.
Opening the cover and testing your mattress without it will also help determine which type of firmness you are experiencing. This is because there are several “species” or types of soft and firm … as the same words are used to describe all of them even though they mean different things and different people may be more sensitive to one or the other. There is the soft/firm that describes the surface “feel” of a mattress or the “hand feel”. There is the soft/firm that describes the upper layers and the pressure relieving ability of the mattress and how well it forms a pressure relieving cradle that re-distributes weight. There is the soft/firm that describes the firmness of the support layers and how far the heavier parts of the body sink down. Finally, there is the soft/firm that describes the more subjective overall feel of the mattress. Some people use the same words to describe very different perceptions or the “species” of softness and firmness that they are most sensitive to. All of them are different. So when people talk about the softness or firmness of a mattress … it’s important to know “which” softness or firmness they are talking about (hand feel, pressure relieving softness/firmness, deep support softness/firmness, or overall perception) because the “overall impression” is not really specific enough to know what is happening when you lie on a mattress.
If the cover is taut then it will subtract from the overall plushness, if it is a little looser or stretch knit then it will feel a little plusher. Layers closest to your skin can have the most dramatic impact upon your comfort. Depending upon the thickness and the weave and the blending of other materials, a cover can be stiff or barely noticeable. Quilting wool into the covering will give it a bit more rigidity and some extra comfort, but it will tend to be on the slightly firmer end of the spectrum, especially as time goes on, as wool does tend to compress. This would, of course, depend upon the amount of wool used and how tightly it is quilted to the material. I wouldn’t try to fit 5" of foam into a cover that is designed for 3". You would need to purchase either a stand-alone topper, which means it is already within its own cover…or … you can order a bare latex layer and replace your existing mattress cover with a thicker one that can accommodate the additional layer.
This is correct and while natural latex would be slightly more “springy or buoyant” and more “supportive” the blended (or synthetic) would generally feel a little softer and be slightly more pressure relieving and would allow for slightly more sinking in and cradling, but again as described above the cover will also influence the overall feel.
Phoenix
I cannot for the life of me figure out how to start a topic! I have no green button that appears to start a topic.
@LisaL0115 - As explained in #2 of the first post here: you can either start a new thread in one of the Expert Member forums or simply find a related thread and add your post to it.
Will the blended have a smell? Or be of lesser quality? I want the best quality. I know Ken said it will be slightly softer but I kind of wonder because I spent the money on the all natural for the mattress, so wouldn’t I be downgrading by putting a blended topper on it? And since I have the bamboo/wool cover on my mattress should I stick with that or get their cotton cover. I sweat at night so I want the coolest but I also use a waterproof cover on top. I just know the plush ultimate hybrid mattress with the bamboo/cotton cover is too firm and I am pretty sure it is the coils. I don’t understand how I can be sinking in when I only weigh 130lb. but I wake up with pain. I will go by what Ken and you both suggest for the 2 inch size but am still torn with getting the blended or natural as well as which cover.
Hi Jill71rdh.
Your assessment is correct that the pain you are experiencing is mainly due to sinking through and reaching the coils. Quantum ® Edge Steel Perimeter in the Ultimate hybrid is zoned with 14 g coils for the top and bottom sides of the spring unit and with 17 g coils in the center third. The lower the gauge number the thicker the wire and the firmer the coil. Even though the coils in the center third of your spring unit are 17 gauge because they have a narrower diameter it acts firmer than a 14 g zone of the larger diameter coils. The people in the industry I’ve talked to approximate that the 17g narrower diameter would be roughly the equivalent of a 13.5 g of conventional diameter coils which will be firmer. At your 20.5 BMI, the higher coil firmness under your hips, combined with the plush comfort layer (20-24 ILD) and with your side sleeping is most likely resulting in the hip area pressure points and pains you are experiencing. When sleeping on your side you will exert the same force on a smaller area, which means that you will exert greater pressure, therefore, sinking deeper and bottoming out on the firmer coils below. (Think of the difference in footprint depth when wearing sandals vs shoes with high hills) This is why you do not have pains when sleeping on your back.
There is more about the many variables that can affect the sleeping temperature of a mattress or sleeping system in post #2 here that can help you choose the types of materials and components that are most likely to keep you in a comfortable temperature range. In very general terms … the materials, layers, and components of a sleeping system that are closer to your skin will have a bigger effect on airflow, moisture transport, and temperature regulation than materials, layers, and components that are further away from your skin and softer mattresses or foam toppers will tend to be more “insulating” and for some people can sleep warmer than firmer versions of the same material.
If you choose one of the types that have a thin membrane which is waterproof but allows water vapor to go through … it will be less breathable and can add to the sleeping temperature of the mattress because it can’t disperse the water vapor as easily as a wool or stretch knit cotton protector and can “negate” some of the effect of the layers below it and add to the insulation effect instead of the ventilation effect. People choose these because they are thin and can have less effect on the feel of the mattress and can have a high level of protection against liquid spills but the tradeoff is that they can raise the temperature. Those who want water resistance (not waterproof) but a more breathable mattress protector that is much more temperature controlling and effective for all but the worst spills would choose wool and then others who want something more breathable yet that has little effect on the feel of the mattress but that only absorbs moisture (from normal sleeping) but may not provide great protection against accidents (unless you remove them quickly) and doesn’t “resist” liquids would choose cotton.
The smell intensity (if any percieved) is more subject to the individual’s sensitivity to odors, and it varies by how much the latex has been aired out; Odor fades out to the point that it is not noticeable. There is more about the smell of latex in post #2 here bu,t in most cases it is reduced to levels below what people will notice in a few days to a few weeks but this can also depend on how acute your sense of smell is and on how sensitive you are to a particular smell. There is also more about the odor of new materials in post #3 here that may be helpful.
In terms of quality … blended and natural latex are equivalent, the cell structure is the same and even the firmness difference is not meaningful for the same ILD ratings … the blended Talalay is most often used because it can create a more durable foam … especially in the softer versions or ILD’s. Talalay that uses 100% natural rubber is also available and is more elastic than a blend but may not be as durable as the blend in softer versions (lower ILD’s). There is more about 100% natural and blended Talalay in post #2 here. Your own experience and preferences are always the most important factor in choosing between them. I’d run everything by your personal value equation and what is most important to you.
Phoenix
I know I am asking a million questions but I am frustrated that I had finally made a decision about a mattress (the ultimate hybrid in plush) and find that I still wake up sore. Obviously it is much much better than my other mattress, which helps my sleep quality, but I still get some pain. As I stated before, I fall asleep on my stomach. Through the night I end up on my side a lot (which is where I feel the hip and shoulder pain), but not to throw a further wrench in my decision making, I notice that I wake up on my back lots of times. So basically I am all over the place. When I purchased the mattress in plush, I went by Ken’s (from Arizona Mattress) recommendation for plush due to my size/weight , stomach sleeping & having tried a Saavy Rest mattress (traveled a bit to get there). He again recommended the plush in a 2inch topper when I messaged him about sleeping on my side. Will sleeping on my back change which firmness I should get? Their soft is ILD is 19. Also, you said the natural would be more springy and supportive while the blended would offer more pressure relieving. Which is better for pain in hip and back? Support or pressure relieving? Or are the natural and blended so close that it won’t make much difference? If that is the case, I will go with blended as it is more durable for a top layer.
Hi Jill71rdh.
You bring up a good point that it would be unrealistic to expect that there would be a “magic bed” that can be perfect for all sleeping positions. (I wish there was!) Those who sleep in multiple positions have the challenge to assess for themselves and learn to discriminate between the effects of the firmness choice for any given sleeping position as it relates to themselves. It is true that sometimes it can be difficult to untangle the mixed body messages and feelings as they relate to mattress needs and preferences, but you are already seeing a clear improvement and with a few more experiments you could get a clearer picture, or at least have an educated guess as what you can realistically expect.
I’d start by determining which is your primary sleeping position (that you sleep in most of the night). It would be quite difficult if not impossible to find the “sweet spot” that matches all 3 sleeping positions …. many people in your situation seek to train themselves switch away from prone sleeping and sleep only on the back and/or side.
Switching to a different sleeping position will certainly change the requirements for any component and for the overall mattress. It would probably be easier and better for you if you could gradually transition from a prone sleeping position to a side and/or sleeping position. As you may be aware, stomach sleeping is the worst posture for your lumbar region, regardless of your core strength. Those that don’t have a firm enough sleeping surface to keep them in good alignment could end up in a hyperextended swayback position which can cause back issues. Your combination sleeping makes it even more difficult to deal with (than when you slept prone only) since the 3 different positions have different basic support/comfort requirements. It is important to have a topper that does not subtract from the support and firmness you need when sleeping prone but that adds enough comfort to address the “hip and shoulder pressure pains” you are currently experiencing when sleeping on your side. Also, you’d need to assess the thickness of your pillow under your head when sleeping upon your side, as this often has to be a bit thicker than what you would have been using when sleeping upon your stomach. For your stomach and side sleeping position (hopefully, you’ll train yourself to gradually switch to a side sleeping position) you may wish to review the guidelines in this Sleep Positions Article so that you avoid hyperextension in a swayback position that can cause back issues.
[quote]Their soft is ILD is 19. Also, you said the natural would be more springy and supportive while the blended would offer more pressure relieving. Which is better for pain in hip and back? Support or pressure relieving?
Or are the natural and blended so close that it won’t make much difference? If that is the case, I will go with blended as it is more durable for a top layer.[/quote]
There is no one material better than the other it all depends on the many variables involved in the choice (body types, sleeping styles, preferences, physiology, age, health conditions, sensitivities, special circumstances etc) to use any formula, specs (either yours or a mattress), or “theory at a distance”. Different sleeping positions are part of what determines how deep a cradle you need and how thick the comfort layer should be. This, in turn, affects the type of support layers that will be appropriate. The layers underneath this comfort layer can help with pressure relief for those who change positions and with thinner upper layers or can be primarily focused on preventing you from preventing your heavier parts from sinking down too far with thicker comfort layers. Of course, your weight and body profile will also make a difference in how far you tend to sink in and how deep a cradle you need in your mattress so for more on your “statistics”, and how they can affect your choices you can read this article here.
As I mentioned in my previous post …. there is no meaningful difference in terms of firmness between the blended and natural for the same ILD ratings from the same manufacturer and process. Different test results show only slight variations between NR vs blended for same ILD and I have not found any scientific evidence to support that one is softer than other… this depends on the type of SBR that it is compared to and on the additives that are used in compounding. The general consensus is that NR is bouncier and springier than blended and that the blended/’SBR is more durable.
I am afraid that the comments above can serve only as pointers and can give some of the general facts that you’d need to know but the experimenting necessary to assess the causes/effects of any of your choices are incumbent upon you because nobody can feel what you feel on a mattress/toper combination nor do they have your specific needs or preferences and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique only to you.
Phoenix
I had to go with my Mom tonight to a matress store to help with getting parts for her adjustable bed. While she was waiting I laid on some beds. I have the Ultimate Hybrid in plush and am trying to get a topper because it is too firm. Well I realize now that I miss the sinking in feel of a memory foam. The beds I laid on were the Serta idirection foam mattresses and it felt so comfortable. I am not sure about putting a memory foam topper on as I get hot but love the feel. I was told I need a 1 or 2 inch topper to soften things up. Is there a latex topper with a memory foam feel? Or a cooler memory foam topper?
@Jill71rdh - Since you have the Ultimate Hybrid from Arizona Premium Mattress, they sell toppers made of a product called Puralux which is a latex product reportedly with the slow recovery feeling and comfort properties of memory foam. On their site they only show it available in 3" toppers but you could inquire as to whether it might also be available in other thicknesses. Hope this helps!
I ordered the Ultimate Hybrid in Plush. It is too firm and I toss and turn all night long. I sleep on my stomach to go to sleep but willsometimes end up on my side. I am pretty much all over the place but believe my main sleep position is stomach. I only weigh 130 lbs so I can’t see how I am sinking into the top layer to the springs but I assume that is what is going on. The latex alone feels soft but I think the cover firms it up. I believe it is made from bamboo. I had made another post about this but can’t find it and was recommended to get a topper from 1 to 2 inches. I was always used to memory foam so I guess I was used to sinking in more. I went with what Arizona Mattress recommended (the plush) after I gave them all my info and I am assuming they suggested that for me as it is softer than the Puralux? I am beginning to wonder if I should have gone with the Puralux but it is outside the time limit for exchange. Anyways, I guess my only option is to get a topper but I am confused on what topper to get. The Puralux is very expensive and also 3 inches. I don’t want to add too much more height. It is 24 ILD. The topper that was recommended was the 2 inch plush they have. I believe it is 19 ILD which would be softer but I am not sure how the 2 compare despite the ILD because one is slow recovery. I have not read many reviews on the Puralux. If I go with the 2 inch soft topper I also wonder if I should get a cover as that firms it up. Won’t it feel the same as what I am feeling now since it is what I already have? Should I just try the topper alone under my sheets? I kept thinking I would adjust but I have had it since June.
Hello Jill71rdh,
Sounds like you have quite a bit going on as you try to soften your Ultimate Hybrid from Arizona Premium (AZP) Mattress Company. As a trusted member, the staff at AZP should be best equipped to address your questions and concerns. In some ways, you are moving towards having a DIY mattress, an area that AZP specializes in. That said, we can give you some independent insights to the some of your questions.
- Will the cover firm up a soft Talalay latex topper? In many instances, yes it will. Slightly, and it does depend on the cover material as well as how “snug” it is in encapsulating the latex. The bamboo fabric cover you mention should be very comforting, however, if it is quilted, then it will dampen the feel of the latex.
- Puralux Talalay and blended/natural Talalay will have a different feel even at the same ILD. Puralux is the trade name AZP uses for Talalay Global’s slow recovery latex and “has the slow response of memory foam, but with the cooling aspect of latex” according to AZP.
- AZP sells 2" latex layers, as components as well as toppers. As a returning customer, especially one who is struggling with their Ultimate Hybrid mattres, AZP may be open to producing and selling you a 2" version of Puralux. It never hurts to ask.
In summary, we recommend you reach out to AZP to work with you on finding the solution you need.
Sensei
Hi Phoenix
I recently purchased a DIY Queen Mattress from Arizona Premium Mattress. I am a 5’11 male, 170lb side sleeper. I have been sleeping on it about 2 weeks and the layers I went with are below.
3" 19ILD Talalay latex
3" 28ILD Talalay latex
8" zoned pocket coil by Legget and Pratt
It seemed a bit firm at first and I had some pain in my pelvis and shoulders. I bought a Cuddle down bedding bamboo mattress pad and that seemed to soften it up. After adjusting my pillows I finally got it to where I was comfortable with enough support. I noticed that after 2 weeks my lower back started hurting because there was not enough lumbar support. I switched to the other side of the bed and that side was firmer like the other side was originally, which is what i need for back support.
So my question is, Is this because the mattress softens up over time? I knew it would soften up a little bit, but i did not expect it to be so much to where i was not getting the lumbar support I needed.
My other thought is I am using a Zinus metal box spring over the wood slats on my bed frame. The wood slats on the bed frame do have support in the middle, but they are 5 inches apart and I wanted the extra height. The slats on the zinus foundation are only 3/8 an inch wide, but they are 3 inches apart. I don’t have the space in my condo to try the mattress on the floor like it was suggested in other posts.
Any suggestions or insight would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Matt
Hi mnn4532.
Congratulations on your new mattress purchase from Arizona Premium! 
As with all our Trusted Members here I have no doubt that they will not hesitate to help you find the best combo and thickness/softness they have available that works for you. It usually takes a bit of trial and error and a bit of time that the body needs to adjust, but I am glad that you’ve had the foresight to chose something that allows for fine-tuning.
While side sleepers need a deeper and/or softer comfort layer to allow for more contouring and pressure point relief how far each part sinks in has to do with how much weight it carries and the surface area that carries the weight, At your 24 BMI and being a side sleeper It may be that a 14" + mattress with 6" > comfort (3" soft + 3" medium and added pad) is not supportive enough to keep your spine in neutral alignment which would cause the pains that you started to experience after 2 weeks. l generally suggest that any changes to the softness/firmness are done gradually allowing for a little more generous adjustment period (you to the mattress and the mattress to you) The break-in and adjustment period for any new mattress or sleeping system as the mattress loses any of it’s “false firmness” and the cover stretches and loosens a little and the materials settle and your body gets used to a sleeping surface that is different from what it is used to (see post #3 here ). This would typically be a few weeks but it can be shorter or longer depending on the specifics of the person and the mattress (higher density materials can take longer) and it can be surprising to many people how much their sleeping experience can change over the course of the first month or so. Once you are past the initial break-in and adjustment period then any further foam softening or “virtual impressions” will tend to be more gradual and happen over a longer period of time (although this wouldn’t happen so much with latex).
Latex, in general, is the most durable foam material and at your BMI it would not be softening/sagging in any meaningful way with only 2 weeks of use, if anything this it would come from the quilting layers or the base layer under the mattress or in many cases what it is called "softening " is really what I call “virtual impressions” which are the result of choosing a comfort level that is too soft. You can see some more detailed comments about this inpost #2 here .
Over the last two weeks, your body adapted to the new sleeping surface and attempted to find a new balance and compensate for any possible misalignment so I’d recommend that you do a bit more experimenting and perhaps remove some of the softer layers such as the added padding and see if the pains subside. This will give you good hints if the cause of your lumbar pain is too much softness/thickness in comfort layers. Trust your instincts, test specifically for alignment when you are fully relaxed and your muscles have “let go” and as always use the knowledge and guidance of the manufacturer themselves. I agree with you that before this you’d first need to give your foundation a thorough check-up to eliminate this as a possible cause.
The metal frame you own would be sturdy enough to support the weight of the mattress and sleeper(s) on it but it is not clear enough how the wood bed frame combined with the 4" low profile metal frame would work together. I generaly don’t trust two foundations on top of each other in terms of stability or flex but this would certainly allow you to get closer to the total height you want. If possible, I’d try to rule out any issues and I’d lift the wood frame against the wall somehow and try the mattress on the metal bedframe
I’m looking forward to your comments and the results of your experiments once you’ve had the chance to try a few more configurations.
Phoenix
Update:
I was having pretty bad lower back and shoulder pain so I decided to remove the 3 inch 28ild latex layer so I was just using the 3 inch 19ild latex over the zoned pocket coils. This has been much better for my lower back and is giving me the lumbar support I need, however I still have some shoulder pain. I feel like I may need to fine tune it with a 1 inch transition layer of medium latex foam because I can really feel the zoned lumbar support of the pocket coils and it feels a bit unnatural. I believe this may also help with the shoulder pain. Overall though, it is much better. I don’t think I was sinking in far enough with the previous configuration to give my back the support it needed.
As far as the shoulder pain I feel like my shoulders sink right through the 3 inch of 19ild latex to the coils which is creating my shoulder pain. I did measure from my armpit to the widest part of my shoulder and it was just less than 4 inches. Do you think a 1 inch medium transition layer would help with this? I’m not sure what to do with the shoulder pain because I was not sinking through the latex with a 6 inch comfort layer and that made the shoulder pain worse.
I am also going to try sleeping on just the 3 inch 28ild over the pocket coils to see how that feels. I will update once I have a chance to give this a try.
Thanks
Matt
Hi mnn4532.
Thank you for the update! I’m glad things are moving forward and that your sleeping experience is improving. You are certainly heading in the right direction and will get a few extra clues from trying the 3" 28ild over the pocket coils. This could be just enough to be supportive but to help with the shoulder pressure point relief. If this is still not enough then you could try adding another 1" or 2" layer or a mattress pad but I’d allow a few good nights of constant results before deciding and give your body a chance to recalibrate itself to the new sleeping surface.
I’m looking forward to any additional updates you have the chance to share and hopefully, some of the suggestions will work out well for you.
Phoenix