Help with mattress options

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

Hi Phoenix,

I’ve been testing/researching mattresses for months now and I’m hoping you might be able to help point me in the right direction to get me out of this anxiety inducing shopping experience. A lot of my problem comes from liking something in the showroom after testing for 15 mins a side, and then still not knowing how that translates to the overnight back pain results.

I’ll begin with stats: 158 lbs… 6’0 tall… back and side/stomach positions (blend of side and stomach, legs in figure four position).
Now on to the experiments.

First, after spending quite a while doing lengthy tests at a big box, I found the S&F Lily Rose plush to feel great in store with good spinal alignment while on my side. Took it home, couldn’t sleep on it the entire night without terrible back pain. Added a featherbed topper and that improved things a little so that I could sleep on it and wake up feeling ok. Tried a 3" 3 lb memory foam topper and that improved things even more, though I was still upset that I was paying luxury prices for a bed that had a plush comfort layer and still required a topper just to wake up only a little stiff (not perfect). This was 90 days into it, plenty of time to “break in” if that’s even a thing for mattresses.

Because the memory foam topper seemed like the right direction but not perfect, I thought Tempur-pedic might be a safe bet, and liked the in-store feel of the rhapsody breeze and the cloud supreme. I wasn’t completely wowed/confident in how it would perform, and after reading your articles felt my money was better served with a different option.

Consumer Reports led me to the Costco/Novaform Serafina memory foam mattress bc of very good side and back and longevity characteristics. The first night, it was almost unbearably firm. After 20 days, it’s become a bit softer, but there are times when I wake up and my arms are numb due to pressure points. And I wake up pretty stiff (back pain). I feel I’m conforming to the bed more than I should - my shoulders feel pushed up too much instead of sinking in when on my side. I don’t know if the 3lb on 5lb layers are just too low density or what to do there.

My next plan was to scrap the perfect comfort idea and just get an innerspring that was firm enough to support my spine and add a topper for comfort. The topper I would try would be a 3" 4lb (I assume an improvement over my decent experience with the 3lb). The mattress would be from The Original Mattress Factory. They were a pleasant experience for shopping. I felt the associate was pushing me toward proper spinal alignment and not the super expensive models. My plan was to get the Serenity Latex bc I’ve been reading so many great things about latex. This was the first latex I’d come across, but in store I did not like the feel of it and it didn’t seem to support spinal alignment properly. I was hoping you could recommend a latex that I could try in the Atlanta area or an online store that has a good return policy in case it doesn’t work out. But aside from that, their Orthopedic Adjustable mattress felt pretty good in store and seemed to give great spinal support on the side, though after return visits the associate said my spine looked straighter on the Orthopedic Extra Firm, and that Extra Firm model has less PU foam to wear out. Do you have experience with either of those two? They seem to be the best value innerspring options, though I’m terrified of going with them due to a no return policy.

Sorry for the length, so to recap:
[li]Lily Rose plush felt decent in store but was too firm - felt terrible overnight, memory foam topper helped[/li]
[li]Costco Serafina seems to be too firm, causes numbness[/li]
[li]Original Mattress Factory latex Serenity seemed like a poor choice for spinal alignment[/li]
[li]Should I give latex another shot? Any recommendations for Atlanta?[/li]
[li]Is Original Mattress Factory Orthopedic (Adjustable or Extra Firm) a good choice with a 3" 4lb topper?[/li]

Thanks for all your great advice,
Michael

2

Hi Michael90,

Many of your questions about whether a specific mattress or a mattress/topper combination would be a good match for you can only be answered based on your own actual testing and/or sleeping experience rather than by theory.

If you do decide to start over again with a new mattress … and just in case you haven’t read it already … I would make sure you’ve read the mattress shopping tutorial here which has the basic information, steps, and guidelines that can help you make the best possible choice … and hopefully avoid the major brands such as Stearns & Foster for your next purchase.

Unfortunately there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved for anyone to be able to predict which mattress is the best match for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or theory at a distance (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).

While nothing is 100% perfect or guaranteed … in most cases and for most people the most reliable way to choose a mattress is based on your own careful and objective testing using the testing guidelines in the tutorial post which will usually come closest to predicting your actual sleeping experience than anything else (see post #4 here).

There is also more about the different ways to choose a mattress and the risks involved in each of them in post #2 here.

If you aren’t confident that your testing would be a reliable way to predict your actual sleeping experience in “real life” though then the options you have after a purchase to either make changes to the mattress or to exchange or return it and the costs involved (just in case your sleeping experience indicates that your choice wasn’t as suitable for your body type and sleeping positions as you hoped for) would probably need to be a much more important part of your personal value equation and the “value” of a mattress purchase.

All mattresses will go through an initial break in period and there is also an initial adjustment period for any new mattress as well but this will generally be a month or less although in some cases it can take longer or shorter (see post #2 here)

Without testing the combination together in person before a purchase … choosing a topper that is a good match for both you and the mattress you are using it on can be almost as uncertain as choosing a mattress in the first place because the mattress under the topper can have a significant effect on the thickness and firmness of topper which would be the best match for you and there are hundreds of toppers that can be very different from each other even if they use the same material. Once again … if you aren’t confident that a specific topper will work well for you in combination with your specific mattress then the return or exchange options would become a much more important part of the value" of a topper purchase. Post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to have more information about choosing a topper that can help you use your sleeping experience as a reference point and guideline to choose the type, thickness, and firmness of a topper that has the best chance of success and links to a list of the better topper sources I’m aware of as well.

You can see my thoughts about Consumer Reports in post #2 here and this topic. I would consider them to be a very unreliable source of good mattress advice.

There is also more about the most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase in post #13 here that can help you make more meaningful comparisons between mattresses.

You can see my thoughts about buying a mattress/topper combination in post #2 here. If you can test the combination in person then this can be a good strategy because the upper layers of a sleeping system are usually the weakest link and if this is a separate topper then when it softens or breaks down sooner than the mattress underneath it then you can just replace the topper without having to replace the entire mattress or sleeping system. When you can’t test the combination in person though then this can be a much more risky approach because there would be more variables and uncertainty involved than just buying a mattress that doesn’t need a topper.

The choice of materials in a mattress is always a personal preference and with each type of material you will find people who prefer it over anything else and you will find others that don’t like it at all. There is no better or worse here as long as you make sure that your mattress uses good quality and durable versions of any materials that you tend to prefer.

The tutorial post includes a link to a list of the members here that sell mattresses online (in the optional online step) and many of them make or sell latex mattresses that use different types and blends of latex and with a wide range of designs, firmness levels, options, price ranges, and return or exchange policies.

While I can’t recommend any specific mattresses (for all the reasons that were in the earlier post I linked) … the better options or possibilities I’m aware of in the Atlanta area (subject to the “value” guidelines I linked earlier) are listed in post #2 here. There are certainly enough latex options in the area that you would have the chance to test a wide variety of latex mattresses to see which ones you prefer … assuming that you like any of them at all.

Again … only your own testing or experience can know whether any mattress is a good match for you in terms of PPP but I can certainly make some comments about the quality and durability of the materials. If you can provide the information in this article about any of their mattresses (or any mattress) you are considering there then I’d be happy to make some comments about the quality of the materials inside it and let you know if I can see any obvious weak links in their design.

Phoenix

3

Thanks very much for the quick reply. You’ve given me much to look into here, and I really appreciate it.
Here’s what I could find online about the materials in the Ortho beds from OMF. They don’t state the thickness of the foam, but I remember seeing the adjustable having a thicker foam layer.

“Orthopedic” Innerspring: OMF Exclusive 12 ¾ Gauge Knotted Offset Coil with 6 Turns and a 6 Gauge Border Rod
486 coil count
Fabric Insulator
Polyurethane Foam Topper
Convoluted Polyurethane Foam Topper
Supersoft Polyurethane Foam Topper
Synthetic Fiber or Premium Fiber Pad
Stitched or Quilted Cotton Batting
FR Innerliner or FR Fiber
Quilted Panel Featuring a Premium Damask Fabric Cover
Handles ~ designed not to pull out when turning your mattress

4

Hi Michael90,

The specs they list on their website are incomplete and aren’t particularly meaningful because they don’t include layer thicknesses and foam densities.

You would need to ask them specifically for the specs you need (see this page) to identify any weak links or make meaningful comparisons with other mattresses (that also provide the specs you need).

Phoenix

5

Hi Phoenix,

The links you provided were fantastic. I gave latex another shot and I think I’m leaning in that direction.
I liked the Tucker Mattress Company’s 40 ILD latex, though it might need some topper softening (they make a $300 3" 19 ILD that I will try as a combo once he orders more latex.
I also really liked Natural Sleep. The PLB Pamper (blue model with 40 ILD support core) seemed to provide great alignment and feel good on side and back.
They also had a memory foam called ECO SERIES 2 that had my spine in a perfect straight line on my side, though I think it didn’t feel supportive enough on my back.

Tucker MC latex is $1500 (plus optional topper)
PLB Pamper is offered for $1999.
ECO SERIES 2 is $1500 though I think I’m leaning away due to the back support.
All of these prices are for mattress and foundation set. Are any of these a no brainier or higher quality?

Thanks again for the great advice,
Michael

6

Hi Michael90,

There is more about the most important parts of the value of a mattress purchase in post #13 here that can help you make more meaningful comparisons between mattresses.

The Eco Series 2 is a memory foam mattress and the other two are latex mattresses so the first thing I would do to narrow down your choices is decide on which material you would prefer. There is more about how memory foam compares to latex in post #2 here.

I terms of suitability …

If careful and objective testing indicated that you are in good alignment in all your sleeping positions then this would mean that the support is a good match for you because the most important part of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) is good alignment. There is more about primary and secondary support and their relationship to pressure relief and firmness in post #4 here and in post #2 here.

If the tucker mattress is just a 6" layer of 40 ILD latex then I would make sure you do some careful testing on the mattress (using the testing guidelines in the tutorial post) because this would be firmer than most side sleepers would do well with.

The same would be true for the Pamper which is the firmest mattress in their all latex lineup and it may also be too firm for most side sleepers.

Having said that … if a mattress turns out to be too firm for you when you sleep on it then you can always add additional comfort and pressure relief with a topper but choosing a topper that you can’t test on a specific mattress before a purchase can be somewhat uncertain or risky and in some cases can be almost as difficult as choosing a mattress in the first place.

In terms of durability …

I don’t know the specifics of the materials in the Tucker mattress so I can’t make any specific comments about either of them (unless you can find out the information listed here and post it on the forum in which case I’d be happy to make some comments about the materials inside it).

If you can confirm that the specs listed in post #2 here are correct (and I would want to know the density of the polyfoam support core as well) … then there would be no weak links in the mattress.

The Pamper uses 8" of blended Talalay latex so there would be no weak links in this mattress either.

In terms of value …

Once you have confirmed that all the mattresses you are considering are suitable for you in terms of PPP and that there are no weak links in the designs and you are down to finalists that are between “good and good” … if there are no clear winners between them then your final choice (see post #2 here) would be a matter of “best judgement” based on all the objective, subjective, and intangible parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course along with the options you have after a purchase to make changes to a mattress or to exchange or return it).

Phoenix

7

Hi Phoenix,

I decided that I really liked the strategy of buying a good quality firm mattress with minimal comfort layer (the weak link that wears out fastest) and adding my own comfort layer in the form of a topper. I went with the Mattress Firm Orthopedic Ultra Firm mattress for this reason, and I decided to go with Brooklyn Bedding’s latex topper bc of their great exchange policy. I found this post very informative:

https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/recommendation-for-latex-topper-for-new-side-sleeper-with-upper-back-pain

I went with the 3" medium (28 ILD) latex topper after giving them my height and weight and receiving their recommendation. However, either the thickness or ILD seems to be off for me. I’m having the same problem the above poster had with hips sinking in too much… while at the same time my shoulders feel too raised/pushed up when sleeping on my side. I was waking up more frequently throughout the night and awoke in the morning with back pain as well as pressure on my rib cage. I’m not sure if the solution is to go with only 2" so my hips sink less, or try the firmer density so that my shoulders are able to sink more relative to the rest of my body. Or would memory foam be a better option given the alignment issues from the latex (maybe 3" 4 lb)?
FYI, I’m back to using my hotel collection featherbed topper, which lets me sleep better but still lacks in ideal alignment and pressure relief.

Thanks so much,
Michael

8

I also liked this guy’s review and wonder what your thoughts are:

Good Quality but careful ordering
I’ve had this 3" topper for 1 month now. I got the 28ILD. I am a male, 6’ 2", weigh 230lbs. My bed preference is firm, but I need some pressure relief too though. I found that I was sinking in a bit too much at my hips and it was causing some lower spine pain I think because of spine misalignment. In terms of overall pressure point relief, I think the 28ILD firmness was about right for me, but I am now going to exchange to a 2" topper to see if that supports my hips a bit better to limit the deflection.

As for smell, I did not have any issues at all. When unpacked there is a sweet smell to the topper when I put my nose close up to it, but it is not over-powering. I can’t really smell anything in that room after a month. I know I have had a strong allergic reaction to latex based products before such as a latex based steering wheel cover that had me violently sneezing for an hour, but I had no reaction at all to this topper.

The queen size topper I got was well packed. It’s a bit heavy to move around for one person, especially if you are on the smaller side, but I had no problems myself.

Some advice to others:

a. This is all very subjective of course because everyone is different and we all have different body shapes, weight and firmness preferences. This all has to be taken into account when choosing the correct firmness and thickness of the topper. I wish there were better guides out there that can help. The type of mattress base, whether it is also foam or spring based, the condition of the upper foam layers over the springs, all of that is going to affect the feel of the topper on top.

b. I think it’s best to choose the ILD firmness based on the pressure relief your need. For someone like myself in the 200+ weight range, with a preference towards a firm mattress, I would recommend ILD 28 and above at a minimum. For someone on the lighter like 150 or less, I think softer foam is going to be a bit better like 22 or 24. If you like a more plush feel, then subtract a bit more from the ILD.

c. The thicker the topper is not always better, especially to maintain spine alignment for side sleepers and stomach sleepers. If you get very firm foam to get the proper spine support and you are < 200lbs, it may feel too firm for pressure point relief. For me, I am willing to let the topper bottom out a bit directly below my hips so that my firm spring based mattress will limit the maximum deflection. For lighter people, you can maybe get away with a softer thicker foam, because your maximum deflection will be less. For a woman on the lighter side with a small torso and wider hips proportionally, the 3" topper may be better with a softer ILD foam because maximum deflection will me less because of the lower body weight.

c. Make sure your mattress is in good shape and is firmer than the feel you are trying to achieve. It’s not possible to make a soft mattress firmer really. The same goes for the frame and boxspring. Before trying a topper, make sure nothing is broken and flexing there. If you are above 160lbs, make sure you are using a heavy duty frame to minimize frame deflection. If in doubt about your frame, try bracing it temporarily against the floor underneath the rails at different points to stiffen it and see if it changes the feel of your existing mattress, A topper can’t really fix sag issues with an existing mattress/frame.

9

Hi Michael90,

One of the challenges of choosing a firm mattress and then adding a topper when you can’t test the combination in person is that choosing a suitable topper that is a good match for both your mattress and for you can be almost as challenging as choosing a mattress that doesn’t need a topper in the first place (see post #2 here).

Unfortunately you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved for anyone to know with any certainty which topper would work best for you on your specific mattress so it may take some detective work and trial and error to find the best combination but I can certainly link you to some information that can help to find the “best possible” topper for your mattress.

First of all … post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to has more information that can help you use your sleeping experience on a mattress as a reference point and guideline to help you choose the type, thickness, and firmness for a topper that has the best chance of success.

There is more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress (or a mattress/topper combination) in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between “support” and “pressure relief” and “feel” and in identifying possible reasons for any “symptoms” you are experiencing on your sleeping system as well.

There is also some information about zoning in post #11 here that may be helpful for those that have more “challenging” circumstances or criteria or if you find that your hips/pelvis is sinking in too far but your shoulders aren’t sinking in far enough (and if any shoulder issues aren’t a pillow issue).

Post #2 here also has some suggestions for a mattress or sleeping system that is too firm and post #4 here has some suggestions for a mattress that is too soft which may also be helpful. I would make sure that any mattress protector or mattress pad or any other bedding that you are using on top of your mattress isn’t interfering with the ability of the latex to contour to your body shape (a mattress pad can add to the surface softness but it can also interfere with the ability of the latex to contour to your body shape and have an overall firming effect) and I would also make sure that the foundation you are using under your mattress doesn’t have any flex or sagging that may be contributing to any issues you are having.

Because you can’t change the mattress you are using … the changes you are making will be limited to changes in the upper layers which will affect pressure relief and secondary support because the deeper support layers and components of your sleeping system can’t be changed so you won’t be able to correct any “symptoms” that are caused by the mattress underneath your topper so “best possible” may be the most realistic target when the type of changes you can make are limited to the top layer.

The choice between memory foam and latex would be a preference choice not a “better/worse” choice and there is more about the differences between them in post #2 here.

If I was in your shoes I would probably be leaning towards a softer topper to “allow” your shoulders to sink in a little more relative to your hips/pelvis but of course this may also increase the risk of alignment issues (back pain) when you sleep on your stomach as well and I would tend to try some of the other suggestions in the posts I linked (including zoning) before exchanging your topper if for no other reason that to see how they change your symptoms and experiences and what you can “learn” from them about a configuration that may work better for you.

Phoenix