Hi folks, I was wondering if anyone had tips or pointers. Obviously one of the most important features of a mattress is to maintain proper alignment (hips not too high, not too low). How do you check? This sounds beyond basic, but the more Iâve thought about it, the more Iâm stumped. Pictures or diagrams of âproperâ position easily enough show what this means and I understand the concept, but how do I know? I doubt any bed provides exactly âstraightâ alignment, it going to be an âestimateâ. Being not overly old with no real ailments to speak of, I can flex my hips either direction and not âfeelâ it until itâs exaggerated. Right now my mattress is pathetic and so the sag is pretty pronounced - but in terms of a new bed. Try and use a mirror and âseeâ? Lol, sorry for sounding so ridiculous, but I can look at another person and âballparkâ whether they appear to be fairly flat or if theyâre out of alignment but this isnât something I can see regarding myself. Left up to feel, and thatâs not the best measurement in my case since I might feel alright, no red flags, but if there is a posture alignment issue slight to moderate - what I donât feel now after some time might progress to an issue. Is this a 2 person task?
Hi brass,
There are some links to suggestions and guidelines for testing pressure relief and alignment in step 4 of the tutorial post
Phoenix
Ok, thanks. I guess itâs nearly impossible without a partner then. Iâve checked sliding my hand under my lower back, that I can pretty well do myself. Didnât know if there were any tricks of the trade for mostly single sleepers to get an idea (not everyone has a partner handy). I agree about just relying on comfort, going by that alone considering my body can flex a number of ways Iâm sure arenât âalignedâ would still feel âcomfyâ. As others have mentioned, I find myself doing the half stomach/half side position a lot although this might be a habit Iâve developed tolerating my current setup. Back sleeping may become an option once Iâm on something more supportive. Itâs almost comical in a sense how little effort sales people give customers choosing a mattress compared to those selling shoes. Both are important, but the shoe salesman will check and squeeze toes, pressure points, break out measuring devices. Mattress salesman typically say âgive it a whirl. comfy? sign here.â I understand the waking up sore being a sign of bad alignment, although unless a mattress is broke down or âextra firmâ I rarely wake up with soreness. Whether itâs a friend or family members bed or hotel bed which none of them are alike - which tells me unless itâs extreme (at least in the short term) Iâm not picking up on alignment problems which may exist and not be noticeable until years have passed. Someone else mentioned they or their partner developing bad back problems due to years of poor sleep alignment. It made me aware of it, I hadnât really considered that a possibility. Being familiar with people who have chronic back problems, thatâs something Iâd like to avoid if I can.
I think the best insurance is to buy a quality mattress, from a reputable distributor that offers a free layer exchange policy. Make sure the mattress has a zipper and the ability to exchange layers. Make an informed decision based on the information provided here on this site regardless of wether you can test it out in person or not.
A person isnt really not going to know unless you sleep in it for quite some time. It took me over a month to adjust and since, most of my ailments I was experienceing from the old mattress are gone. If the mattress doesnt agree with the person they should come back here and post their concerns, and also ask the sales rep for his advice and exchange the layer if need be. When the mattress begins to fail they should reevaluate it and then replace the layer that is need of replacing.
Really all you can doâŚbasically it is a educated guess, coupled with a relaible and honest distributer. But a person really has to sleep in it to determine it, and they really wont get the full effect until the mattress has broken in.
Hi brass,
It can certainly be more difficult to check alignment when you are alone and donât have someone to help âeyeballâ you (either a partner of a retailer).
While no testing will be 100% reliable ⌠the goal of good testing is to shift the odds of success as much as possible in your favor.
Itâs still possible to do a reasonably good job if you pay careful attention to the signals your body is giving you and if you spend long enough on the mattress. Some of the things that would be important is that your testing âapproximatesâ your sleeping experience as closely as possible so itâs important to wear loose clothing, make sure you are testing with a good pillow, and spend long enough on the mattress that your muscles are completely relaxed. Your muscles will generally take about 10 or 15 minutes or so to relax when you are âgoing to sleepâ and this is when good testing begins and you will be more likely to be able to âfeelâ how your body is doing on the mattress by listening to the more subtle signals and seeing if your muscles can âlet goâ or if they resist relaxing completely to keep you in alignment.
There is also a range of alignment that works for each person (younger more flexible bodies that havenât developed any âissuesâ will generally have a wider range) so the goal is not to have alignment that is âruler straightâ because everyoneâs natural alignment isnât âruler straightâ (just like all feet donât fit a âperfectâ shoe).
If you do well and make a choice that is inside your range ⌠you may still have some initial discomfort or âsymptomsâ on the mattress just because itâs different from what your body is used to sleeping on (just like a new pair of shoes can take a while to become comfortable) and your different muscle memory will feel itâs different from your old mattress (see post #7 here) but if your alignment is good then the symptoms will diminish and disappear vs if your alignment isnât good then any âsymptomsâ can get worse as you spend more time on the mattress (just like a pair of good shoes that has better arch support can be uncomfortable until you get used to better arch support).
So good testing is the best way to âpredictâ your experience on a mattress and have the highest possible odds of success even though it may not be 100% accurate and you may still go through an adjustment period.
Some local retailers I know donât have any exchange or return policy at all because they donât feel good making people who donât return or exchange a mattress pay for the ones who do and have the skills and confidence to help their customers make good choices they have a very high success rate. Of course they may also lose a sale to a customer who is more uncertain that a mattress is a good âmatchâ for them and is willing to pay a higher price for a return or exchange option.
Of course if you are buying online and making a choice based on averages that you canât test in person then of course a good return or exchange policy can become much more important.
I also believe that many years of sleeping out of alignment are certainly one of the factors that can help lead to back issues over the years even if the symptoms donât become obvious right away.
Phoenix
Thanks guys. I can appreciate the perspective of retailers/etailers trying to keep costs down by not fiddling with returns. Itâs something Iâve been keeping in mind while trying to narrow down my options. Iâm sure unless people are just window shopping or something, most would rather not return anything. That was something I expressed to a couple different places, in a perfect world luck would have it Iâd end up with a great mattress, set it up, throw on the sheets and put all this headache behind me. Easy purchase, easy sale, everything going âto planâ. I know some of the potential return scenarios are built into the price but I just look at it as paying for peace of mind. I never make any purchase with the intent of sending it back, but I tend to avoid overstock for the fact they donât accept returns on much if anything regarding bedding. Even if not a âcomfortâ issue, nice to know I can work with someone and get what I paid for and that any manufactured goods are prone to be a bad apple. To at least be able to return if itâs defective.
A little off topic, so maybe this should be a post of itâs own. (I came across an interesting thread but it was older and didnât want to wake up a dead thread). Two poly foams, with the same firmness (ifd) - will they feel differently based on density alone? I ask because thereâs been statements that ifd doesnât affect firmness, a dense foam can be made to feel soft, a low density foam can be made to feel hard. Maybe both are true, in the event theyâre the same firmness maybe then density will play a role. This was related to questions someone had about Brooklyn Bedding/Dreamfoam changing up their layers, reducing some of their core poly foam from 2.2 to 1.5 lbs density. Phoenix said he spoke with BB and it was noted that others like Tempurpedic have also done this with some newer models, that the lower density was actually a good choice because it made for a better âfeelâ. I wouldnât have considered there to be a difference in feel if 1.2, 1.5, 1.8, 2.2 density foams can be made to any firmness without regard to their density. If a higher and lower density foam (poly) in the same ild can feel differently, wouldnât that suggest density is related to firmness? I mean if not firmness/softness feel, what are people feeling differently? I can feel when a couch cushion say is firm or soft (ild difference) and how much I sink in. Iâd think what I was feeling was firm/soft ild, not the actual density of the material (provided surface feel was the same material, cotton duck, velour). Then again I didnât consider myself overweight being around 190lbs and BB and others have suggested nearing the 200lb mark a higher density foam would be more suited to me. Maybe itâs just wishful thinking and denial of needing to go on a diet lol. Kidding aside, I know a higher density is more durable which makes perfect sense considering my somewhat higher than average weight to height ratio - I just wasnât aware of a feel difference.
Hi brass,
That depends on how you define âfeelâ which is very subjective and can vary with all the properties and specs of the foam (such as resilience, point elasticity, cell structure, and others) which are âbuilt inâ to the chemical formulation of the polyfoam (regardless of density).
Assuming though that you are only talking about the firmness/softness of a foam ⌠then the IFD rating for polyfoam is measured by using a 50 sq inch round compressor foot and compressing a 4" piece of foam of at least 15" x 15" (usually 20" x 20") by 25% of its thickness (so a 4" piece is compressed to 3") and after a short waiting period measuring the force needed to keep it compressed. There is 1 lb of force applied first to even out any irregularities in the foam surface.
This means that IFD is an accurate representation of the relative firmness of 4" of a foam material compared to others that are measured using the same testing protocols and that are compressed by one inch. IFD testing will usually also be a reasonable prediction of the relative firmness of a foam in other circumstances or applications as well.
There are also other factors though that can affect how soft or firm a foam feels other than IFD. The most important of these is compression modulus which is the rate that a foam becomes firmer as you compress it more deeply. Foams with a higher compression modulus (also called support factor, sag factor, or comfort factor) will feel firmer when they are compressed more than 25% than a foam with a lower compression modulus. The compression modulus of a foam will also depend on the chemical foam formulation although with the same chemical foam formulation higher density will usually have a higher compression modulus. HR foams or âhigh comfortâ or âhigh performanceâ foams will generally use a chemical formulation that has a higher compression modulus than conventional foam formulations (regardless of density). There is more in post #4 here about the various factors that can affect how firm or soft a foam feels and performs (other than its position in a mattress and the layers above or below it which are not part of the properties of the foam itself).
Any density of foam can be made in a very wide range of IFDâs and density is more connected to durability not firmness but IFD itself isnât the only factor that is involved in how firm a layer of a foam âfeelsâ.
Phoenix
Phoenix, thank you. That I think answered what I was wondering. I know there are tons of unknowns and variables, but when you mentioned the denser version of the same ild would tend to have a higher compression modulus now makes sense. I was thinking if itâs a matter of the methods involved and any density can be made to roughly any firmness, I wasnât grasping how feel would come into play. Would make sense though that a lower density foam of the same ild, if it had a lower sag factor would be more âcushâ since it wouldnât firm up to the same degree with deeper compression. Also makes more sense being recommended to a denser version of poly foam for my relatively heavier weight (considering my stocky/shorter height) - a lighter person wouldnât need as much âsupportâ and my heavier weight range would roughly âfeelâ the same from a denser product. If I sank down deeper into a less supportive layer due to lower density, it might âfeelâ softer/saggier compared to the experience for a lighter built person would feel from the same exact material.
Hey Brass, back to the original point, I had a similar situation in that I am single and had nobody to accompany me on my field tests. I came up with some âoddâ ways of checking alignment, at least for side sleepers, (which I am mostly). First, I took a yard stick with me and when lying on my side I would place the yard stick down my spine, (a bit awkward at first, but after a few test runs was fairly simple). just line up the ends in the middle of the neck and the other end on the tail bone. Then have the salesman take a picture with my phone, and have them press the yard stick so I could more clearly feel where the straight path was. If my back swayed down, I knew there was not enough support, if it swayed up, too much support. Same in looking at the photos. one could draw lines and figure the angles, esp hip displacement. I also wore a compression shirt which clearly outlined every part of my back. (In stores where the salesperson was busy with others, the yard stick under the compression shirt âheldâ it in place pretty well). It was quite easy to see/feel where my alignment was off, which made finding the right support fairly easy, (after checking thru dozens of different types of mattresses). I will say that when I narrowed my choices down, I would lie on a mattress for nearly an hour, (listening to the music I like to fall asleep to on my iPod, which enhanced the relaxing of muscles), to get a final reading.As Phoenix mentioned, once your muscles release, (relax), there is some change. Surprisingly, (or maybe not), there were only 3 finalists which graded a near perfect 100% alignment.
I hope this helps a little. By the way, I do have back issues, and use to wake every morning for years with back pain. My Chiropractor said it was because I continue to run, compressing my spine too much. Well I can honestly say, that after getting my new mattress, I have not awakened one day yet with any back pain! What an amazing feeling! I was in awe the first day for hours as I waited for a twinge or spasm to kick in. Never happened. And I reported this to my chiropractor and he was amazed too. (havenât had to see him either since). Good luck and take the time to get the right mattress. Its not only a big investment, but an investment in your future health.
Curious - what were the finalists and final choice? And, thanks for the tip on checking alignment.
The finalist included 2 Pure Latex Bliss all latex mattresses, (The WBB and the Beautiful), and from the Original Mattress Factory, the Serenity latex, which is a 2 sided mattress with latex comfort layer but used a polyurethane foam support layer. They all provided the right spinal alignment for me, but⌠the Serenity comfort layer seemed a bit on the more firm side to me, not allowing enough cradling effect esp in the shoulder and hips, (Iâm primarily a side sleeper). The WBB was a tremendous âbargainâ, but after my hour long final test, I felt there was a bit too much plushness to it. I could sense a pushing effect between the shoulders and hips when on my side, not enough to alter spinal alignment, (the WBB and the Beautiful both use the same latex support core), but when I moved to a âtop leg over and forwardâ position, alignment did move ~ 1/2 inch. (I surmise this may have been due to the shifting of weight in the hip area). I didnât register any discomfort in this shift, but I did notice when returning to my preferred side position, I kinda rolled out of the cradle very easily. I also sensed a push in my lower lumbar area when lying on my back. The Beautiful was the âGoldilocksâ for me. Perfect alignment, slightly firmer than the WBB, (the web site gives the Beautiful a softness âratingâ of 9, while the WBB is a 10), But still had plenty of cradle for my shoulders and hips. Alignment continued dead on thru the âtop leg over and forwardâ position, and no roll back sensation when returning to original side position, and not a overly noticeable push in the lower back when on my back. The Beautiful was not as much a âbargainâ price as the WBB, (think I remember seeing somewhere the WBB was being redesigned thus places were giving deep discounts), but I wanted to stick to the idea that âa bargainâ does not make one bed âbetterâ than another. And true enough, thus far, I have awakened refreshed, pain free in not only in my back but also shoulders and hips every morning since. (Was beginning to think I was surely headed toward the need for a hip replacement with my old mattress). One slight scare though⌠after getting the bed, it didnât feel as soft as I had experienced in the store, esp in the shoulder area. A quick check with Phoenix reminded me that the foam may need some âbreak-in timeâ along with other factors which could interfere with that soft feeling, (ie: mattress cover, bedding,âŚ). Sure enough, almost 2 weeks now, it seems to be getting to that âstoreâ softness more as I find it more and more difficult to get out of bed every morning. Sorry to ramble on, but Iâm so stoked after the results of combining the great knowledge provided here and the patience of time consuming field testing to find the perfect mattress for me. I hope everyone else finds their perfect mattress too, it really does make a BIG improvement in sleep quality and thus, waking life quality. Carpe Noctam⌠Carpe Diem !