How to look for and find the best mattress ... for YOU! ***READ FIRST***

[EBKinCA]

Posted this in another thread but wanted to post it here too…by the way we bought: L&P S Cape adjustable base and an Ergo Silhouette Marseilles. Would love your thoughts on these items.

I just want to thank you all so much. My mom has had some health issues that made her need an adjustable bed. My mom is used to buying her appliances/beds at Sears and promptly bought there, as she has been so uncomfortable for so long…just wanted to get it done. Something about the quick purchase didn’t sit right with me, I had heard some kind of reviews before. So last night I looked all over the place, researching reviews, and ended up on this site. My mom has a lot of allergies, and needs good support for her back. It would have been so upsetting to all of us if (a) the new bed made her health issues worse (b) she had to deal with the customer service issues if/when she decided to return the bed later on ( buying through a retailer like Sears). She has enough to deal with as it is.

We followed links on this board to a couple of retailers here in Southern California (orange county) and visited them today, tried out beds the way you all recommended… They were so knowledgeable and helpful! I feel like we dodged a bullet thanks to you all. Cancelled the Sears order. We’re going to end up paying more, but the peace of mind and quality of the product will be worth it for my mom.

I made sure to tell the store that we were referred to them by this site.

Thanks again.

[phoenix]

Hi Just Right,

Thanks for the feedback and it’s great that they were willing to provide you with ILD information regardless of it’s “real life” value.

The Leafwing and the Goldleaf would have a very similar feel and performance because the 2 ILD difference (assuming that the Goldleaf uses 2" of 19 ILD in the top 2" instead of what latex International calls “soft” which is 24 ILD) would be below the threshold that would be discernible for most people and would also be within the natural ILD variations across the surface of a Talalay latex layer as well. Also assuming that the polyfoam core was the same IFD (firmness in polyfoam) in both then the extra inch also wouldn’t make any significant difference either for most people.

I also found the source of the latex used in the Jamison mattresses. It is Latex International (www.latexfoam.com/). They have a great website and they seem to be top notch in every way latex.

Latex international is one of two main manufacturers of Talalay latex in the world (the other is Radium in Holland) and their bended Talalay is certainly is a high quality material. They are the biggest supplier of Talalay in North America while Radium has larger presence in Europe although both compete in both markets.

I’m very pleased with Jamison and just hope our visit tomorrow can put my stinging sinuses worry to rest so we can buy some mattresses already!

I’m curious as well about the source of your stinging sinuses but this would be more typical of a reaction to memory foam or even polyfoam VOC’s and offgassing for those who were more sensitive than it would be to latex.

I’m looking forward to hearing about your next round of mattress testing experiences

Phoenix

[brownies2]

So, I’ve been taking into consideration all the factors that are recommended. I contacted The Mattress Expert (recommended for Philadelphia area) with the following message:

Message: Hi just need help choosing a mattress. Husband(43 years/ 210lbs) suffers from multiple bulging discs in his lower back and I (40 years/150lbs)experience stiffness from neck/shoulder injury. I am tired of mattress shopping in stores and just want to make the best decision with our money.
Thanks, Janet

To which he replied:

Hi Janet,
Best Buy…and, our most popular mattress/topper combo.
The Stearns & Foster Heidi in luxury firm with a 2" soft Talalay latex topper.
This combination produces firm, but not hard support that his back needs from a mattress that will support his weight. The 2" soft latex topper provides long term pressure point relief and comfort. It’s a great feeling bed. Here are the links. You can order on line. Delivery is free and there’s no sales tax.

http://www.mcssl.com/store/1ae662ee01d74b47b0655c675367c3/stearns-foster-luxury-collection/stearns-foster-heidi-luxury-firm-tight-top

http://themattressexpert.com/all-about-latex.html

Thanks, Pete
1-877-631-5490
Visit Our Websites:
www.themattressexpert.com …Our Mattress Site

These are the specs for this mattress:

Stearns & Foster Luxury Collection, Heidi, Luxury Firm

Level H

PRODUCT SPECIFICATIONS

QUILT:
FlameGuard™ Fiber
1" Hypersoft® Poly Foam
.5" oz Fiber
1" Hypersoft® Poly Foam

COMFORT LAYERS:
1" High Density Poly Foam
1" High Density-High Performance Poly Foam

COIL UNIT:
Individually wrapped Titanium Alloy Double Tempered Steel Coil Unit, 825 Coil Density (Queen Size Count)

COIL GAUGE 13.75

EDGE SUPPORT: 2.5" Foam Encasement™

BASE INSULATOR: 1.5 oz. Resilium®

BOXSPRING: LTD.™ Deflection

MATTRESS HEIGHT: 13"

I had read about how the comfort layer of this mattress is not good quality but was wondering if you had any advice to offer concerning best mattresses to alleviate discomfort of bulging discs. Obviously alignment and support is key but The Mattress Expert seemed to think that an all latex mattress would not be the best option but rather purchasing a latex topper on top of a firm mattress.

Just trying to make sense of it all

thanks

[phoenix]

Hi brownies2,

I should make clear that most of the retailers in the various lists around the forum are only “possibilities” that are dependent on your ability to find out the quality of all the layers and materials in a mattress … not “recommendations”. Whether I purchased a mattress at any of them would depend entirely on their ability to provide this information so I could make meaningful quality and value comparisons with other mattresses. Without this you are making a completely blind purchase. The only mattresses there I would consider are the ones where they can provide the quality details of every layer.

As you can see here (one of the links in the “read first” post) … I also don’t suggest even considering any major brand mattress or any mattress where they won’t disclose any meaningful information about the materials in their mattresses and which are lower quality and value than many other options you have available.

The Stearns and Foster specs you were given don’t provide the most important information of all which is the density of the foams they use and without this the specs have no meaning because they don’t allow you to identify the weak link of the mattress (which as you noted is the likelihood that the comfort layers will soften and break down too quickly). I would never consider a mattress which had 4" of polyfoam in the top layers that were likely lower quality and which would be the first part of the mattress to soften and impress.

Phoenix

[Just_Right]

Hi Phoenix,

Well, good and bad news.

The good news is we got to test the Jamison Goldleaf side by side with the Leafwing.

There are some pictures of the Goldleaf’s construction and mattress surface design coming to you by email. I tried attaching them here and got the fatal error message again. I made them all much smaller than 2 MB each but no dice.

Both my wife and I liked the Goldleaf better than the Leafwing. We both thought it was softer. Its also less expensive than the Leafwing. I think the Leafwing was a little cooler to sleep on than the Goldleaf, doubtless owing to the GL in the top layer of the Leafwing. I couldn’t make up my mind whether the coolness was an advantage or not. I think a hot sleeper would find the GL valuable.

I also had a further email from the Jamison rep saying that the top two layers of the Goldleaf are both ILD 19.

The bad news is that I got the stinging sensation in my sinuses again and I’m sure it was coming from something on or in those two mattresses. I took a good long series of breaths through my nose while close to the surface of the Goldleaf and could feel (not smell, just feel) something entering my sinuses that was not my friend. Again, after we left the store the stinging began. I’m sure that a night spent on one of those mattresses would give me a raging sinus headache.

:sick:

We could buy one for my wife because she had no problems with either mattress. But further reading suggests that what I’m ‘smelling’ is fire retardant sprayed onto the mattress cover. So,I don’t want her exposed to those chemicals either.

Its too bad because they have gone to a lot of trouble to make a very attractive cover.

To be reasonable, I probably need to abandon Jamison as a potential mattress solution.

However, all is not lost. Big progress has been made here. I have learned the characteristics of a mattress that will make me happy. Now I need to see if there is another manufacturer out there that has a similarly constructed mattress - but is also driven to free their mattresses of as many out-gassable chemical residues as possible.

Maybe this one would do: 9" SkyBed® Natural Latex from http://www.habitatfurnishings.com/latex_mattress.html. It uses wool as the fire retardant layer and they have a one year free trial (except for return shipping). I might ask for a sample to see if it smells.

[phoenix]

Hi Just Right,

The pictures were over the 2 MB forum limit for posting images which is why you were getting the error. I resized them and added them to your post

The bad news is that I got the stinging sensation in my sinuses again and I’m sure it was coming from something on or in those two mattresses. I took a good long series of breaths through my nose while close to the surface of the Goldleaf and could feel (not smell, just feel) something entering my sinuses that was not my friend. Again, after we left the store the stinging began. I’m sure that a night spent on one of those mattresses would give me a raging sinus headache.

That’s unfortunate. I’m not sure what you could be reacting to but it could be something you are particularly sensitive to in any of the materials in the mattress including any glue that is used.

We could buy one for my wife because she had no problems with either mattress. But further reading suggests that what I’m ‘smelling’ is fire retardant sprayed onto the mattress cover. So,I don’t want her exposed to those chemicals either.

Since Jamison is answering your questions it may be worthwhile to ask them what they are using as a fire retardant. I tend to think that it’s probably not a “spray” (and is probably a viscose/silica based inherent material which I would consider to be “safe”) but of course this is possible as well. It could also be some kind of treatment used for the cover fabric.

Its too bad because they have gone to a lot of trouble to make a very attractive cover.

Yes … it would be a shame because I agree that the cover is very attractive.

Maybe this one would do: 9" SkyBed® Natural Latex from www.habitatfurnishings.com/latex_mattress.html. It uses wool as the fire retardant layer and they have a one year free trial (except for return shipping). I might ask for a sample to see if it smells.

A forum search on Habitat (you can just click this) will bring up many posts with my comments and more information about them. While they do use good materials (latex) in their mattresses … they are not the best “value” IMO and they don’t offer any options to fine tune their mattresses after a purchase. They are also a different design from the Jamison’s you have tested.

If you are looking in the direction of an online purchase … you will find a list of the members here that sell online in post #21 here where you will find better value and better options for choosing a design and fine tuning the feel and performance after a purchase as well.

Phoenix

[Just_Right]

Hi Phoenix,

I have been checking the online offerings of the companies you link to in post #21.

There is some interesting stuff out there.

However, so far, no one I’ve talked with knows the ILD of the “7” Marriott High Resiliency Ultra Premium Core" that resides inside the Goldleaf.

So, no one can give me an informed recommendation on the mattress they have that would be most similar. Not even people who offer a good deal of flexibility in many layers.

I’ve written to Jamison and asked the local dealer. So far, no answer there either.

Any suggestions?

Thanks.

[phoenix]

Hi Just Right,

ILD information is not really a part of transparency because it’s a “comfort spec” which has nothing to do with quality. Many manufacturers choose not to disclose it for good reason because it’s can be a legitimate part of a proprietary design.

In this case … you would just have to assume it is “somewhere in the range of firm” and use a rough approximation based on how it feels to you or use a support layer that would be fairly “standard” for your height and weight based on “averages” for the mattress you were considering.

Phoenix

[Just_Right]

Hi Phoenix,

I’m still looking for the ‘all latex’ mattress that will closely match the Goldleaf by Jamison.

There are two or three somewhat promising possibilities, mostly more expensive than the Goldleaf. In every case, I’m looking at a mattress with core and comfort layers of latex, a natural fire retardant like wool and a natural cover like cotton or bamboo. All in the hopes that such a mattress will not out-gas fumes that irritate my sinuses.

But, what if such a mattress still bothers my sinuses - or is just too expensive?

What do you know/think of/about enclosing a mattress in a gas tight ‘fabric’. Is there such a thing? Does it damage the mattress inside it? What are the other pros and cons?

If the all latex route doesn’t pan out (either because of cost or out gassing), I might still be able to get a better night’s sleep by encapsulating the Goldleaf. Or, if I buy an all latex mattress and eventually find that it too bothers me - same thing.

Thanks.

P.S.

So far, the far off, online folks with the best potential (for me) have not been agreeable to sending me sample materials from their mattresses. (One has offered to let me visit their factory and personally take the samples back home.) I think they are all scared of dealing with someone who has chemical sensitivities. What if, they think “Maybe this guy won’t be able to live with our mattress. He’d be stuck. Shipping back is very expensive. We don’t want an unhappy customer.”

Not an unreasonable way to think.

[phoenix]

Hi Just right,

What do you know/think of/about enclosing a mattress in a gas tight ‘fabric’. Is there such a thing? Does it damage the mattress inside it? What are the other pros and cons?

I don’t think this would be a good idea at all because it would prevent the mattress from breathing and could have a big affect on temperature and humidity control and would probably be uncomfortable as well. The only “gas tight” material I know would be clear non toxic polyurethane plastic (not vinyl) that was in the range of 5 mil or thicker.

Although anything is possible … my guess is that it’s not likely to be the latex that is affecting you and the odds are higher that you would be affected by any glue or polyfoam or other potential irritants in the mattress than the latex.

It may be worth testing some other latex mattress to see if your experience is the same.

If you are concerned though (and you would have good reason to be given your experience) I would make sure that any mattress you purchase has a good refund policy so that if for some reason your experience indicates that the mattress is affecting you that you have the ability to return it. This may not be an option available locally but it is available with many online purchases which may be a good option to consider.

Phoenix

[dpastor]

Not sure if this is the right forum. Can you recommend NYC stores, preferably Manhattan - or NJ like Paramus? Before I went on my biz trip, I had it narrowed down to a few choices. One issue is that I really like the Cloud Supreme - but dh is tall and heavy, and it seems like that might not work. But I had tried a few firmer choices and didn’t like as much. Maybe if we both went to a store and tried them together.

Any advice on stores or a compromise mattress? I have hip issues and can no longer take a firm mattress.

[phoenix]

Hi dpastor,

The New York list is in post #2 here and the there is a more categorized list with a few more detailed descriptions of some of them in the Northern New jersey list in post #7 here.

I’m happy to speak to the quality or value of a mattress or of course point the members here in the direction of better options in terms of retailers or manufacturers but as you can see in mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here there are too many variables and unknowns for me to suggest specific mattresses or comfort choices based on “theory at a distance”. Your own careful and objective testing will be a much more accurate guideline to find what is most suitable for you.

The first part of post #2 here also has some information that may be helpful in situations where the needs and preferences of a couple are very different,

Phoenix

[Just_Right]

Hi Phoenix,

I just read a disturbing piece about the fire barriers used in even “organic” mattresses:

http://www.strobel.com/wool_burns.htm

:ohmy:

They say there is no natural fiber, including wool, that can withstand the blow torch test now mandated by law. Consequently, all mattress manufacturers ‘fib’ about the naturalness of their fire retardant layer. In reality, they all must add or use chemicals to meet the fire standard and that none of those chemicals are safe for humans.

:sick:

And, there is no legal requirement to disclose the chemicals that are being used.

Sounds like I need a doctor’s prescription so I can get a mattress without those chemicals.

I don’t smoke so I’m not going to catch the mattress on fire myself.

What are your understanding and opinions on the subject?

Is there a particular chemical + fiber that you think is least harmful to the sleeper?

Thanks.

[phoenix]

Hi Just right,

There is some good information on the Strobel site but also some very inaccurate and misleading information as well that is more about fear mongering and selling mattresses than it is about providing accurate information to consumers.

Their information about wool fire barriers as well as viscose/silica inherent fire barriers are examples of some of the “bad” information.

You can read more of my thoughts about their site and the information there about wool (and fire barriers in general) in post #2 here and post #2 here and post #2 here (and the links it contains). Quite frankly I think their wool information is ridiculous and they lose much of their credibility with me when they post information like this.

Phoenix

[Just_Right]

Hi Phoenix,

Thanks for the clarifying comments and links. I’m a little less scared, I guess.

:unsure:

You are right. The Strobel web site does have a deliberate fear factor sales pitch built in.

:evil:

As I followed your links, I didn’t see much about rayon as a fire barrier. What would you know or extrapolate about a “1 oz” fire barrier made of 80% rayon and 20% polyester? (Assuming no chemicals have been added.)

Thanks

P.S. I just found your link on amorphous silica rayon (rayon/silica): https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/silica-safety

Wonder what the 20% polyester adds/does in an 80/20 blend.

[phoenix]

Hi Just Right,

Rayon is a type of viscose fiber that is made from cellulose (from wood, bamboo, eucalyptus, and many other cellulose sources). Where you read “viscose/silica” in the information it is interchangeable with rayon/silica.

Wonder what the 20% polyester adds/does in an 80/20 blend.

Polyester would generally be added for cost reasons (its cheaper) and also to change the feel of the fire barrier to make it more lofted, softer and pliable.

Phoenix

[Just_Right]

Hi Phoenix,

It appears very likely that the 7" polyfoam core of the Jamison Goldleaf has an ILD of 28. That, plus the two layers of 2" ILD 19 Talalay provide the comfort and support that I like.

I have a proposal from a mattress company for an all latex mattress, that would have a feel similar to the Goldleaf. It would use Latexco Dunlop as follows: 6" ECO core at 26 to 28 ILD, a 3" duvet at 22 to 25 ILD and a 1" ILD of 15 to 19. I have not tested this proposed mattress since it would be a custom design.

This proposal seems a little firm, going just by ILD. But, there are other variables like Dunlop in place of both polyfoam and Talalay, Latexco instead of Latex International, probably better quality (denser) latex in the Dunlop than in the Talalay and then the duvet which apparently has a different feel from a ‘solid slab’ of latex.

From these ‘specs’, can you guesstimate how close the proposed mattress might be to the Goldleaf in comfort and support?

Thanks.

[phoenix]

Hi Just Right,

It appears very likely that the 7" polyfoam core of the Jamison Goldleaf has an ILD of 28. That, plus the two layers of 2" ILD 19 Talalay provide the comfort and support that I like.

That would surprise me if it was 28 (I would have thought it was firmer) but I really don’t know.

This proposal seems a little firm, going just by ILD. But, there are other variables like Dunlop in place of both polyfoam and Talalay, Latexco instead of Latex International, probably better quality (denser) latex in the Dunlop than in the Talalay and then the duvet which apparently has a different feel from a ‘solid slab’ of latex.

ILD by itself can be very misleading because it is only one of many factors that determine the softness/firmness of a material. Others include compression modulus, point elasticity, and the thickness of a layer and all of these interact together to create the “feeling” of softness that people feel.

ILD comparisons between different materials are also not particularly valid. The method used to test ILD with polyfoam is different than with latex (polyfoam ILD ratings are generally firmer than the same ILD with latex). Even with latex there can be differences between how ILD is tested and even if the method is the same … Dunlop and Talalay have a different compression modulus (Dunlop gets firmer faster than Talalay with deeper compression) and ILD is only equivalent if you sink into the layer exactly 25% (which is the depth of compression where ILD is tested). Beyond this … Dunlop will generally feel firmer than Talalay with the same layer thickness and ILD.

Although Dunlop is a denser material than Talalay … they have a different cell structure and I would call them equivalent in terms of quality/durability. Generally blended Talalay is in the same price range as 100% natural Dunlop.

As you mentioned the “pillows” in the Duvet latex would make it feel a little softer than it’s ILD alone may indicate.

From these ‘specs’, can you guesstimate how close the proposed mattress might be to the Goldleaf in comfort and support?

While the quality of the materials are certainly good (better than the Goldleaf with latex vs polyfoam in the support core) … there are to many differences in design and materials for me to even guess at how they may compare in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, Personal preferences) for any particular person. The comparison would also vary depending on body type and sleeping style (and which layers each person tended to “come to rest” on and/or feel the most). I think the only way to know for certain would be your own subjective comparisons based on your actual experience.

Failing that you would really be dependent on the manufacturer and their experience and knowledge of their own materials and mattresses along with their confidence that the two designs would approximate each other. If you are considering a mattress that you haven’t tested in person then the exchange options that are available to you if you don’t make the “ideal” choice may also be an important consideration.

Phoenix

[Just_Right]

Hi Phoenix,

It appears very likely that the 7" polyfoam core of the Jamison Goldleaf has an ILD of 28. That, plus the two layers of 2" ILD 19 Talalay provide the comfort and support that I like.

That would surprise me if it was 28 (I would have thought it was firmer) but I really don’t know.

I was expecting 36 for the Goldleaf core, based on other feedback that I have had from several mattress people. The 28 number came from Latexco, after the mattress company gave them all the particulars about the Goldleaf. Maybe they meant 28 in Dunlop which might be translate to a firmer number in Talalay or polyfoam?

If you are considering a mattress that you haven’t tested in person then the exchange options that are available to you if you don’t make the “ideal” choice may also be an important consideration.

There’s the rub. It will be very awkward if the custom mattress doesn’t feel right. The mattress company will have expended time and money and I will probably have pre-paid for it. Then, there is the cost of shipping. I don’t think this custom mattress will be easily “adjustable” - no zipper for one thing. And, they don’t have any standard designs that would work for me.

I hate conflict and I also hate to put someone else in an awkward position.

This mattress company has been around a long time and has no complaints registered at the BBB. In general, I think they know what they are doing.

I’m hoping to visit them tomorrow and talk about all this. Maybe by seeing/hearing how I react to one of their standard mattresses they will be able to ‘calibrate’ my preferences enough to be extra confident about the design of the custom model that they propose.

Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful comments. You are a great help to those of us who are wandering around in Mattress Land, lost, dazed, doubting the existence of a mattress that will work for them.

[jenlwitt]

Thank you for all this information! I live a very far drive from any mattress store, but am in desperate need of a new mattress. The information you have provided has been very helpful and has helped me make some important decisions! Ordering a new mattress soon!