How to look for and find the best mattress ... for YOU! ***READ FIRST***

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
127

Hi Phoenix,

Iā€™m still looking for the ā€˜all latexā€™ mattress that will closely match the Goldleaf by Jamison.

There are two or three somewhat promising possibilities, mostly more expensive than the Goldleaf. In every case, Iā€™m looking at a mattress with core and comfort layers of latex, a natural fire retardant like wool and a natural cover like cotton or bamboo. All in the hopes that such a mattress will not out-gas fumes that irritate my sinuses.

But, what if such a mattress still bothers my sinuses - or is just too expensive?

What do you know/think of/about enclosing a mattress in a gas tight ā€˜fabricā€™. Is there such a thing? Does it damage the mattress inside it? What are the other pros and cons?

If the all latex route doesnā€™t pan out (either because of cost or out gassing), I might still be able to get a better nightā€™s sleep by encapsulating the Goldleaf. Or, if I buy an all latex mattress and eventually find that it too bothers me - same thing.

Thanks.

P.S.

So far, the far off, online folks with the best potential (for me) have not been agreeable to sending me sample materials from their mattresses. (One has offered to let me visit their factory and personally take the samples back home.) I think they are all scared of dealing with someone who has chemical sensitivities. What if, they think ā€œMaybe this guy wonā€™t be able to live with our mattress. Heā€™d be stuck. Shipping back is very expensive. We donā€™t want an unhappy customer.ā€

Not an unreasonable way to think.

128

Hi Just right,

I donā€™t think this would be a good idea at all because it would prevent the mattress from breathing and could have a big affect on temperature and humidity control and would probably be uncomfortable as well. The only ā€œgas tightā€ material I know would be clear non toxic polyurethane plastic (not vinyl) that was in the range of 5 mil or thicker.

Although anything is possible ā€¦ my guess is that itā€™s not likely to be the latex that is affecting you and the odds are higher that you would be affected by any glue or polyfoam or other potential irritants in the mattress than the latex.

It may be worth testing some other latex mattress to see if your experience is the same.

If you are concerned though (and you would have good reason to be given your experience) I would make sure that any mattress you purchase has a good refund policy so that if for some reason your experience indicates that the mattress is affecting you that you have the ability to return it. This may not be an option available locally but it is available with many online purchases which may be a good option to consider.

Phoenix

129

Not sure if this is the right forum. Can you recommend NYC stores, preferably Manhattan - or NJ like Paramus? Before I went on my biz trip, I had it narrowed down to a few choices. One issue is that I really like the Cloud Supreme - but dh is tall and heavy, and it seems like that might not work. But I had tried a few firmer choices and didnā€™t like as much. Maybe if we both went to a store and tried them together.

Any advice on stores or a compromise mattress? I have hip issues and can no longer take a firm mattress.

130

Hi dpastor,

The New York list is in post #2 here and the there is a more categorized list with a few more detailed descriptions of some of them in the Northern New jersey list in post #7 here.

Iā€™m happy to speak to the quality or value of a mattress or of course point the members here in the direction of better options in terms of retailers or manufacturers but as you can see in mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here there are too many variables and unknowns for me to suggest specific mattresses or comfort choices based on ā€œtheory at a distanceā€. Your own careful and objective testing will be a much more accurate guideline to find what is most suitable for you.

The first part of post #2 here also has some information that may be helpful in situations where the needs and preferences of a couple are very different,

Phoenix

131

Hi Phoenix,

I just read a disturbing piece about the fire barriers used in even ā€œorganicā€ mattresses:

http://www.strobel.com/wool_burns.htm

:ohmy:

They say there is no natural fiber, including wool, that can withstand the blow torch test now mandated by law. Consequently, all mattress manufacturers ā€˜fibā€™ about the naturalness of their fire retardant layer. In reality, they all must add or use chemicals to meet the fire standard and that none of those chemicals are safe for humans.

:sick:

And, there is no legal requirement to disclose the chemicals that are being used.

:angry:

Sounds like I need a doctorā€™s prescription so I can get a mattress without those chemicals.

I donā€™t smoke so Iā€™m not going to catch the mattress on fire myself.

What are your understanding and opinions on the subject?

Is there a particular chemical + fiber that you think is least harmful to the sleeper?

Thanks.

132

Hi Just right,

There is some good information on the Strobel site but also some very inaccurate and misleading information as well that is more about fear mongering and selling mattresses than it is about providing accurate information to consumers.

Their information about wool fire barriers as well as viscose/silica inherent fire barriers are examples of some of the ā€œbadā€ information.

You can read more of my thoughts about their site and the information there about wool (and fire barriers in general) in post #2 here and post #2 here and post #2 here (and the links it contains). Quite frankly I think their wool information is ridiculous and they lose much of their credibility with me when they post information like this.

Phoenix

133

Hi Phoenix,

Thanks for the clarifying comments and links. Iā€™m a little less scared, I guess.

:unsure:

You are right. The Strobel web site does have a deliberate fear factor sales pitch built in.

:evil:

As I followed your links, I didnā€™t see much about rayon as a fire barrier. What would you know or extrapolate about a ā€œ1 ozā€ fire barrier made of 80% rayon and 20% polyester? (Assuming no chemicals have been added.)

Thanks

P.S. I just found your link on amorphous silica rayon (rayon/silica): https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/silica-safety

Wonder what the 20% polyester adds/does in an 80/20 blend.

134

Hi Just Right,

Rayon is a type of viscose fiber that is made from cellulose (from wood, bamboo, eucalyptus, and many other cellulose sources). Where you read ā€œviscose/silicaā€ in the information it is interchangeable with rayon/silica.

Polyester would generally be added for cost reasons (its cheaper) and also to change the feel of the fire barrier to make it more lofted, softer and pliable.

Phoenix

135

Hi Phoenix,

It appears very likely that the 7" polyfoam core of the Jamison Goldleaf has an ILD of 28. That, plus the two layers of 2" ILD 19 Talalay provide the comfort and support that I like.

I have a proposal from a mattress company for an all latex mattress, that would have a feel similar to the Goldleaf. It would use Latexco Dunlop as follows: 6" ECO core at 26 to 28 ILD, a 3" duvet at 22 to 25 ILD and a 1" ILD of 15 to 19. I have not tested this proposed mattress since it would be a custom design.

This proposal seems a little firm, going just by ILD. But, there are other variables like Dunlop in place of both polyfoam and Talalay, Latexco instead of Latex International, probably better quality (denser) latex in the Dunlop than in the Talalay and then the duvet which apparently has a different feel from a ā€˜solid slabā€™ of latex.

From these ā€˜specsā€™, can you guesstimate how close the proposed mattress might be to the Goldleaf in comfort and support?

Thanks.

136

Hi Just Right,

That would surprise me if it was 28 (I would have thought it was firmer) but I really donā€™t know.

ILD by itself can be very misleading because it is only one of many factors that determine the softness/firmness of a material. Others include compression modulus, point elasticity, and the thickness of a layer and all of these interact together to create the ā€œfeelingā€ of softness that people feel.

ILD comparisons between different materials are also not particularly valid. The method used to test ILD with polyfoam is different than with latex (polyfoam ILD ratings are generally firmer than the same ILD with latex). Even with latex there can be differences between how ILD is tested and even if the method is the same ā€¦ Dunlop and Talalay have a different compression modulus (Dunlop gets firmer faster than Talalay with deeper compression) and ILD is only equivalent if you sink into the layer exactly 25% (which is the depth of compression where ILD is tested). Beyond this ā€¦ Dunlop will generally feel firmer than Talalay with the same layer thickness and ILD.

Although Dunlop is a denser material than Talalay ā€¦ they have a different cell structure and I would call them equivalent in terms of quality/durability. Generally blended Talalay is in the same price range as 100% natural Dunlop.

As you mentioned the ā€œpillowsā€ in the Duvet latex would make it feel a little softer than itā€™s ILD alone may indicate.

While the quality of the materials are certainly good (better than the Goldleaf with latex vs polyfoam in the support core) ā€¦ there are to many differences in design and materials for me to even guess at how they may compare in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, Personal preferences) for any particular person. The comparison would also vary depending on body type and sleeping style (and which layers each person tended to ā€œcome to restā€ on and/or feel the most). I think the only way to know for certain would be your own subjective comparisons based on your actual experience.

Failing that you would really be dependent on the manufacturer and their experience and knowledge of their own materials and mattresses along with their confidence that the two designs would approximate each other. If you are considering a mattress that you havenā€™t tested in person then the exchange options that are available to you if you donā€™t make the ā€œidealā€ choice may also be an important consideration.

Phoenix

137

Hi Phoenix,

I was expecting 36 for the Goldleaf core, based on other feedback that I have had from several mattress people. The 28 number came from Latexco, after the mattress company gave them all the particulars about the Goldleaf. Maybe they meant 28 in Dunlop which might be translate to a firmer number in Talalay or polyfoam?

Thereā€™s the rub. It will be very awkward if the custom mattress doesnā€™t feel right. The mattress company will have expended time and money and I will probably have pre-paid for it. Then, there is the cost of shipping. I donā€™t think this custom mattress will be easily ā€œadjustableā€ - no zipper for one thing. And, they donā€™t have any standard designs that would work for me.

I hate conflict and I also hate to put someone else in an awkward position.

This mattress company has been around a long time and has no complaints registered at the BBB. In general, I think they know what they are doing.

Iā€™m hoping to visit them tomorrow and talk about all this. Maybe by seeing/hearing how I react to one of their standard mattresses they will be able to ā€˜calibrateā€™ my preferences enough to be extra confident about the design of the custom model that they propose.

Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful comments. You are a great help to those of us who are wandering around in Mattress Land, lost, dazed, doubting the existence of a mattress that will work for them.

138

Thank you for all this information! I live a very far drive from any mattress store, but am in desperate need of a new mattress. The information you have provided has been very helpful and has helped me make some important decisions! Ordering a new mattress soon!

139

Hi Just Right,

I think this is a good idea because it will give you a reference point that would be very useful to be able to more accurately predict the effect of any changes from the mattress you test.

The fewer and the smaller the differences from a mattress you test, the better the odds of being able to predict the feel and performance of any customized version. Once you start making multiple or larger changes to a mattress you have tested it becomes much more difficult to predict how all the layers and components will interact together compared to the one you tested.

My tendency would be to use one of their mattresses as your reference point (rather than the Goldleaf) and then customize from there because your ā€œsubjective memoryā€ of what the Goldleaf felt like in comparison to another mattress may not be particularly accurate (unless you are testing them very close together in time and preferably side by side). They would also have more experience in the effect of customizing one of their own mattresses than they would in trying to match a mattress made by another manufacturer (unless they have personal experience with the Goldleaf).

Phoenix

140

Hi jenlwitt,

Iā€™m glad the site could help you ā€¦ and Iā€™m looking forward to hearing about what you end up choosing :slight_smile:

Phoenix

141

Hi Pheonix,

Your website has been very informative. I have been shopping for a mattress for my daughter all week and I am still undecided with which route to go. She is moving into a bed from her crib. I am looking for a mattress that will support her natural alignment through the years. I am also looking for a mattress that is healthy - no off gassing. The size needed is twin, I am on a budget unfortunately so that is also a concern. I tried out a latex mattress at mygreenmattress.com but wasnā€™t impressed, it was 1inch latex over springs. I like the idea of latex, but didnā€™t like the feel. I have also tried out the Simmons Beautyrest recharge Woodlands Firm, it has the individual inner coils with 5/8" Comfort Foam, 1" High Performance Pressure-Relieving Foam, 1/2" GelTouch, and 1/2" Energy Foam. I feel it is comfortable now but I worry about the foam breaking down over time. I am also looking at the miForma Relax, with Eco memory foam, it is an open cell foam. It felt cool while laying on it, but not sure if it would conform to my daughters body as she is only 30 lbs. Any advice you can offer would be appreciated. I am in the western suburbs of Chicago, IL., any local shops you can refer to me would be appreciated.

Thanks

142

Hi gamom,

Hopefully youā€™ve read the first post of this thread and the guidelines it links including this article. As you can see, the Beautyrerst (and any mattress where the quality of the materials isnā€™t disclosed by the manufacturer) is a mattress I would avoid.

There are a number of threads in the forum about mattresses and children which have good information and links to some good choices. The better ones are linked in post #2 here.

I would tend to avoid memory foam for young children (for the reasons mentioned in some of the childrenā€™s threads)

Children have different needs than adults and need firmer mattresses than adults so I would avoid buying a mattress that is soft enough for you (or even comfortable for you).

My Green Mattress / Quality Sleep would have some very good options that would work well Pure Echo Natural which has innersprings and natural fibers and no foam at all (which is among the most natural and breathable mattress types available). The innerspring/latex mattress you mentioned may also make a good choice for a child. They are also very knowledgeable and would give you good guidance about which of the choices they offer would be most suitable.

The list of better options in the Chicago area is in post #2 and #4 here but if I was in the Chicagoland area I would make My Green Mattress / Quality Sleep my first and probably my last stop. As you probably know they are a member of the site and are among the best quality/value in the country.

Phoenix

143

Hi Phoenix,

We went to visit a mattress manufacturer/direct-to-public facility today. I was able to try out two all-latex mattresses extensively. In both, the core and comfort layers are latex. The fire barrier is a rayon/polyester blend. The ticking is cotton.

I got samples of all these layers (except the ticking) to take home with me for a ā€˜noseā€™ test.

As we left the building, the sinus irritation started to creep up on me again. (It is still with me 5 hours later.) I also began to notice a latex smell on my clothes. We went to lunch. When we got back to the car the interior smelled like latex from the samples.

There is no doubt in my mind now. I have an unpleasant sinus reaction to the latex used in mattresses - both Talalay and Dunlop. Maybe I am the only one in the world, but its real.

We went back to the factory/store and discussed this development. The owner suggested the possibility of encasing the mattress in a mattress protector such as:

http://glideaway.com/product/mattress-protector/

He said he has used these successfully for folks with allergy problems.

The protectors are ā€œbreathableā€ so it wouldnā€™t be like wrapping the mattress in an airtight film.

He also suggested giving the latex samples a week or so, in a pillow case, with frequent application and removal of weighty objects (to simulate a break-in period). THEN try the nose test again. I will.

On our return visit, I also tried out an inner spring mattress with no latex. It has a total of 3.5 inches of polyurethane comfort layers above and below the innerspring. It felt as good as the latex. The owner cautioned that this mattress would be subject to body impressions, so a rigorous routine of turning and flipping would be essential to prolong the life of the mattress. On the plus side, he said that my light, tall frame would allow this routine to be less rigorous than for the average guy.

I brought home samples of the foam and fire barrier from this inner spring mattress. I understand that the average person will notice that polyurethane out-gasses for about two weeks. The samples had very little smell, but still noticeable to my ā€˜hyperā€™ nose.

Iā€™m wondering if a protector like the one at the link would really block molecules of latex, or polyurethane, while letting oxygen through. If so, this could be my way to a happy ending. What do you think?

Thanks.

144

Hi Just Right,

I think that the first thing I would do is get tested for latex allergies to verify the cause of the nasal symptoms.

Most latex ā€œallergiesā€ are actually a delayed hypersensitivity to either natural latex itself or to the chemicals used in its manufacturing and are the result of actual contact with either the proteins in the latex itself or the chemicals used in the production of latex. The symptoms are typically dermatitis types of reactions starting at the point of contact. These are the most common latex reactions for those who are sensitive and they are most common with dipped latex (such as gloves, balloons, or condoms) and much less common with molded latex (erasers or rubber stoppers) and even less so with latex foam. They are not ā€œdangerousā€ and can be avoided by avoiding direct contact with the latex or using a cover over a latex layer although they can sometimes progress to increasing sensitivity or an actual Type I allergy.

A Type 1 allergy is a true allergy and can range from mild to dangerous up to anaphylactic shock (like some people who have severe reactions to a bee sting).

If your symptoms (nasal irritation) are connected to the latex ā€¦ they would appear to be more related to an actual latex allergy (nasal symptoms are one of the ā€œtypicalā€ symptoms) in which case I would make sure that I was tested for this because this is something I would not take any risks with. If you do indeed have a latex allergy then it would be wise to know about it because latex is very common in our society and you may need to take some additional precautions to avoid or minimize latex exposure of any type.

These as well as other types of allergen covers that are either vapor permeable and donā€™t allow particles to go through them or fabrics with very small pore sizes (from 1 to 5 microns) work well for ā€œtypicalā€ allergies to dust mites (body parts and feces) or other small particulate allergens (spores, dander etc). They are usually used in the form of a complete mattress encasement (not just a protector for the top surface) to prevent exposure to allergens although the type that just covers the surface may also make some difference (preventing you from breathing in as many particles).

The ā€œmembrane typeā€ that you are mentioning allows water vapor to pass through but not water or particles so they are generally sold as being waterproof mattress protectors. While they are also described as being breathable, they are more ā€œsemi breathableā€ and donā€™t allow airflow nearly as effectively as a fabric with very small pores (either cotton or a synthetic) without a membrane. Because of the lower airflow of the membrane type protectors ā€¦ they can cause some people to sleep warmer (a result of more restricted airflow).

If I had an actual latex allergy I would tend to avoid latex completely even with an allergy cover/encasement. If it just turned out to be that you are reacting to a nasal irritant and itā€™s not an actual allergy then these would probably help depending on the size of the particles you are reacting to. The membrane type would prevent any particles at all while the small pore fabric type would block any allergen particles that were larger than the pore size.

Some polyfoam has very little initial offgassing at all and some will dissipate in a couple of days. In other cases it can last much longer. Polyfoam comes in a wide range of densities (quality/durability levels) and I would want to know the density of any polyfoam in the mattress. If it is 1.8 lbs or higher it will be fairly durable (higher density yet would be even more durable) although I would still flip and rotate it to extend its durability. If it is in the range of 1.5 lb then it can still be reasonably durable if you pay good attention to the rotation and flipping schedule and I wouldnā€™t use this (except perhaps in very thin layers) in a one sided mattress. This would be the minimum density I would want to see in a mattress (except in a thin quilting layer) and I would expect it to be in a lower budget range than higher quality polyfoam and especially than latex which is a much more costly material. I would be very cautious with polyfoam that was less than 1.5 lbs even in a two sided mattress.

Phoenix

145

Hi Phoenix,

I will get tested for allergy to latex.

I handled the bare latex samples a fair bit and didnā€™t get any skin irritation.

My sinus reaction to the latex mattresses was less immediate than to memory foam mattresses, but more long lasting.

To me, memory foam just smells like an oil field. The smell gets on any clothing that comes in contact with it and must be removed. It would make me ill in a different way, I think, if I slept on a memory foam mattress. But, just lying on it for 15 minutes, I donā€™t get the stinging sinus irritation or long lasting sinus pain.

To me, latex does have an odor, but it is not immediately offensive. However, as my body starts to react to it, I want the smell off me, just like I want the memory foam smell off of me.

For polyurethane, would it be correct to say that a membrane type mattress encasement would not help with out-gassing?

Are there specific brands, product names, chemical compositions, processing steps or other ways of specifying polyfoam so that I get a mattress with a short out-gassing period?

Does just specifying greater than, or equal to, 1.8 lbs (per ?) assure high quality/durability - without regard to manufacturer, etc?

Thanks for a truly enlightening post.

146

Hi Just Right,

Most latex has either a sweetish smell (talalay) or a rubbery smell (Dunlop). Neither is offensive to most people (and some people like the smell of Talalay) but the Dunlop is a little stronger and takes a little longer to dissipate in most cases.

It may reduce it to some degree but it wouldnā€™t stop the VOCā€™s no. To stop them completely you would need to encase the mattress in clear non toxic polyethelyne plastic that was about 5 mils thick which would be both noisy and stop ventilation of the mattress completely.

Unfortunately no ā€¦ and as you are also discovering there will also be a range of experience with exactly the same type of foam depending on how well it was cured, how long it was left to air out after manufacturing, how quickly it is wrapped, and differences in manufacturing conditions as well. About the best you can do is go by CertiPur certification either at the foam manufacturing level* or at the mattress manufacturing level* along with any feedback or personal experience from the retailer or manufacturer you are purchasing from. All the major North American foam manufacturers are CertiPur certified.

ADMIN NOTE: *Removed 404 link|Archived Footprint 1: certipur.us/pages/for-industry/find-a-foam-supplier/|Archived Footprint 2: certipur.us/pages/for-consumers/find-products/

Yes to a degree. Polyfoam density is the single biggest factor in the durability of a foam and 1.8 lbs is at the bottom end of higher quality polyfoam. There are also other definitions of quality though besides durability which have to do with the specific properties of the foam (such as resilience, compression modulus, ventilation etc) which have more to do with performance than with durability. There are also other more relative factors involved in durability as well (see post #4 here) so the design of the mattress, the position of the foam in the mattress, the thickness of the polyfoam layers, the softness of the foam, and itā€™s suitability for a specific person will also play a role in how long a mattress will last for each person.

Phoenix