How to... A Researcher's Guide to Mattress Wisdom

Hi aladrieth.

And welcome to our Mattress Forum! :slight_smile:

Sorry to hear about your box spring foundation failing … I’d be curious to know why you think that solid foundations would not work for you? What type of mattress do you sleep on as this is an integral part of how the entire sleeping system serves you. “Box springs” are more important than many people realize as depending on the type they act as shock absorbers (have some give in working with the mattress instead of against it).

As far as solutions go I’d start with the manufacturer of the mattress you currently own and ask for their recommendation for warranty reasons. Was your mattress part of a sleeping system with a flexible slat foundation or with a “box spring” or with solid wood slats (most of them are)? The “box spring” terminology may be misleading as it comes from far back in the “old days” when they truly were springs used under a mattress. Some manufacturers design their mattresses to be used over a flexible or tension adjustable slated foundation which is an active and important part of the complete sleeping system (although again this is usually with thinner mattresses). This type of foundation is more commonly found in Europe so you are correct that you’d have fewer options available. What is your budget range? And finally … Canada or US?

We’ll be moving your post shortly to it’s dedicated thread. Hopefully, someone who has had some experience with the Berkeley Ergonomics Suspension Foundation will chime in. I am not sure if you had a look through the Foundation thread here but this is a good place to start your research … specifically, post #3 linked to in that thread.

Phoenix

My Question:

BoxDrop and Sapphire Sleep Mattresses

My husband finally found a mattress he likes (I was here searching 7 years ago and finally gave up because he could NOT commit to anything!)- It is at our local “BoxDrop” mattress store- with a brand I can’t find much info on called Sapphire Sleep (whose site seems to have dead links to Diamond?) anyway here are the specs on what he fell in love with:
Arctic Crown by Sapphire Sleep in Queen Sized
Quilt:
Arctic Cool Cover Layer
Fire Retardant Fiber
.5oz Silk/Wool Blend
Two 1″ High Density Quilt Foam Layers
Construction:
1″ Dual Reaction™ Foam Layer
1″ Advanced 3C™ Foam Layer
1386 High Density MicroCoils (Queen)
1″ SupportU Foam Layer
Coil System (Queen):
884 Quantum® Edge
Coil Support:
1″ Support Foam
Foundation Options:
9″ Wood Standard; 5″ Wood Low-Profile
Warranty:
10 Year Non-Prorated
Mattress Height:
15.5″

The gal who was working that day hadn’t been there long and she could only tell us what was on her “cheat sheet”.

Any thoughts? There are 0 returns, so if we buy we are stuck and since it has taken us 7 years for him to find one he was ready to actually buy, I am hoping you all may have some feedback about this choice. My budget is $1200 out the door with a box spring… Things he liked- comfortable but not to soft, and minimal motion from one of us to the other. My concerns- he sleeps hot- does the cooling layer actually work? The top felt “stretchy” like it may over stretch and be wrinkly over time. and no returns if we hate it after a few nights.

I know you all like latex, but he wasn’t a fan when we tried them at various stores.

It appears one can’t start new threads, so I am wondering how or where to post this question: I just received two toppers from a company that is mentioned positively by you, but is not a member. I am building my own twin xl mattress in layers. When I received the blended talalay latex, there are 1/4" pin core holes every 3/4" throughout, which seems like large holes quite close together. There is almost as much air as latex in this topper. So far, toppers that I have seen have been solid slabs with no holes. I recognize the pin holes help with the manufacturing process and are partly for temperature regulation, but won’t the large size holes closely spaced affect the density and feel of the topper? Is this going to hold up as well as a solid slab topper? Won’t it provide less support and comfort because of so much air? How else could it affect feel and/or performance? This was not shown in the product photos, so I was surprised to see such large holes in the latex topper.

The short answer is yes, just like the smaller and more frequent air bubbles in Talalay processed latex create a different feel than Dunlop processed latex which has larger, less prevalent bubbles, so it stands to reason that larger holes would made a softer latex. However, manufacturers do not seem to factor in the size of the holes when they produce the latex and some manufacturers use multiple sizes of pins when producing the latex. While the industry is regulated by emissions, purity and organic testing, the regulations surrounding sizes and imperfections are not global and are left up to the market to decide.
Of interest, the latex I use usually only has pin holes on the top and bottom of the 6" core and the inner 2" is without holes. Thus it is frequent that a 3" piece only has holes on one of its sides.
It is worth noting that the sizes of the holes are not used to control the firmness of the piece of latex.
I hope your new topper is comfortable!

Hi Phoenix,
Thanks for getting back to me! I missed the Foundations thread in my forum search, so I will definitely give it a read.

My current mattress and box spring are both from Serta, but so old a warranty no longer applies. The box spring is the real deal, made with coil springs. I think the mattress may have springs in it, too.

I am in Calgary, Canada, and I’m looking for something not too expensive. The Berkeley Ergonomics one is $600, and I think that’s about my limit.

Cheers,
Aladrieth

Hi weareborgswife.

Welcome back to our Mattress Forum after seven years :slight_smile: … thus far your husband holds the record for the longest time selecting a mattress.

Thank you for listing the specs of the Arctic Pillowtop from Sapphire’s Sleep site… unfortunately, they do not provide the densities and IFDs of the type of foams used in this mattress. Outside of whether a mattress is a good match for your husband in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) … a mattress is only as good as the quality of the materials inside it so regardless of the name of the manufacturer we’d need to know the specifics of what was inside any mattress you were considering to make any meaningful comments about the quality of the materials (see the article about the Mattress specifications you need to know) to compare the quality of the materials and components against the durability guidelines here . While the coils they use are not the weak link if you can find the specifics of the top 4" of memory foam layers inside their mattress then I’d be happy to make some comments about the quality of the materials inside it or whether it has any obvious weak links in terms of durability.

In addition to this … as you well noted the “no returns policy” is posing its own risks … and also the inability to fine-tune the mattress before/after the purchase in case that your mattress choice doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for. I’d also be a bit careful with how long a mattress has been on the floor as the floor models can be already well broken in. The ambient temperature in the shop when the mattress was tested sometimes can be an issue as many consumers find that it feels different at home than in the shop. This is because a memory foam would feel firmer or softer depending on the ambient temperature.

Your concern is justified as memory foam tends to sleep hot for those who are sensitive to this and even the newer generation more breathable memory foams are not as breathable or open-celled as other types of foam such as latex or other more temperature-regulating materials. However, the Tencel fabric and the wool/silk blend will mitigate some of this. As mentioned above …even if memory foam feels very firm when it is cooler it will slowly become much softer with heat & pressure of your body over the course of the night.

There is nothing wrong with liking memory foam and if you are committed to it … then the density of the memory foam and the specific type of memory foam becomes important. With weights over 200 lbs … memory foam under 5 lbs won’t hold up nearly as long as higher density/quality memory foam. In addition to this … the different types of memory foam (more or less breathable, more or less responsive, more or less temperature-sensitive etc) and the different layering patterns in the mattress (how thick is the memory foam, what type of support system is under it etc) becomes a major part of how suitable any particular memory foam mattress may be for you. There are some guidelines for purchasing memory foam in post #10 .

I know that after 7 years the prospect of doing some more leg work does not sound very happy but unless you are very lucky with this mattress … all in all, there are too many red flags and things that can go wrong. If you decide to do a hard reset I’d make sure to revisit the most important links in the tutorial are post #2 here about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (either locally or online) that is the best “match” in terms of “comfort”, firmness, and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) that can help one assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn’t turn out as well as hoped for, and post #13 here about the most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase which can help with meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to other finalists based on all the parts of your personal value equation in post #46 .

Hopefully, with all the data you collected so far you’ll shorten a bit your mattress shopping journey. I’d be curious to know what you ended up deciding

Phoenix

Hey Aladrieth,

Thanks for your question to Phoenix:) . Did you say what size your Serta mattress and box spring are?

Would you consider a foundation from MFC? They offer two models, a standard box spring that fits inside a metal frame or a free standing box spring that sits on top of 5" high wooden legs, both with a hardwood frame, full length center support and 3/4" thick x 4-1/4" wide slats. A queen free-standing box spring is around $539, which is well within the price range of $600 you mentioned. You can check out their foundations here. They are online shopping only but are Trusted Members on our forum, you can ask them questions from our site here. Good luck foundation shopping and let us know what choice you make.

Thanks,
Sensei

Hello:
1st off thank you for the time & effort it’s taken to put all this information on the internet & maintain this forum. Having been a list-serv admin back in the early 90’s I know how much time/trouble it can be to do so.
The mattress industry has long been a source of confusion to me since entering adulthood (the 60’s). I need help & I can’t seem to figure out how/where to post questions so starting here. If it’s wrong place please direct me to right place.
We’ve bought a Roadtrek RV & there are 2 configurations for sleeping: 2 twin benches across from each other, left is 30"x72" & right is 76"x30 or we can make a queen size bed where 2 middle cushions measure 54" by 76" and can lay 2 twin toppers side by side. Some folks make the bed up at beginning of trip but we feel we’ll like using the bench seats for eating, using laptops, watching football etc and may make up twins as often as we do the queen bed. I deal with pain on a 24 hr basis & am a poor sleeper. Hubs is a snorer & does his best using breathe strips & mouthpiece to muffle but doesn’t work very well. Mattress at home is old & needs replacing but we’re selling & moving so will deal w/it till Spring. RV has medium density foam cushions that feel very hard to me & uncomfortable. I sleep best on our couch which has latex foam cushions. I also have multiple chemical sensitivities from working around a neon plant for years. I don’t tolerate chemical smells at all.
We’re thinking of buying two latex foam toppers or Thermarest pads to use on the twin bench beds & if we want to make up the queen bed we can put them side by side.
Can you recommend to me what is the least smelly, most comfortable latex foam topper? Are latex foam toppers more comfortable then Thermarest pads? There are a gazillion brands out there & I just don’t know which to choose. I don’t want a lavender scented topper because it is probably there to offset a chemical smell. Cost is not a huge issue, would prefer to purchase a topper that will last with good care but not a $300 each product. $75-$200 each would be a good ballpark figure.
Would also like a recommendation for covers that can be removed & washed, not dry cleaned, and line-dried to keep shrinkage to a minimum.
Given these concerns can you:
1)Recommend natural, GOLS approved toppers that are made with zero chemicals so it won’t retain a chemical smell for under?
2) Recommend a topper cover that zips on which we can wash and should it be bigger then topper so topper won’t curl up on edges?
3) Should we also put a mattress pad on top of topper cover to maintain topper (and should it be bigger then topper so edges don’t curl up?)
Thank you in advance for your help. Much appreciated.
Chris

Hello iluvs2fish,

Yes, a latex topper is much more comfortable than a thermarest pad, in part due to its spongy bounce that lets you sink in a bit, in part due to the depth possibilities (compare 1/2" or even 1" thermarest pad to 3" of soft and squish) and in part due to the options of different fimnesses.

One question before I answer your specific questions, If you find that the latex cushions on your couch are the most comfortable for you, can we help you replicate those cushions? Do you know their depth and firmness, maybe an ILD number or at least a manufacturer and firmness classification (soft, medium, firm, etc.)

  1. People generally say that latex smells either like vanilla or cleaning products. Personally, I like the vanilla smell better as it is more mild. I work with two brands of latex, the Arpico latex is the vanilla smell. For interest’s sake, the Arpico latex also has the latex protein that commonly causes skin allergies removed from their formula.

While latex is GOLS certified and the end product is 96% tree sap, all foam requires “foaming agents” in order to stay a foam. Without them, the latex slab would be a flat, brittle brick.

In the end, all natural latex, whether organic or not, ends up containing the following ingredients:

Organic Latex Rubber 96%
Zinc Oxide 2%
Fatty Acid Soaps 1%
Sulfur 1%
Sodium 1%

Item 1 is pure, natural rubber harvested exclusively from the “Hevea Brasiliensis” tree, which grows primarily in South-East Asia.

Items 2 thru 5 are foaming agents that are essential to the vulcanization, foaming and curing process that all latex cores must go though. The finished core is then washed a minimum of 3 times to remove any residuals that may be left over after curing.

That said, while organic latex is not chemical free, it does not off gas and it is pretty darn close to being chemical free, which is impressive for a man made product.

Questions to consider:
a. How deep of a slab do you want?
b. How is the cushion going to be used primarily?

a. As a cushion that is going to be sat and slept on, I suggest a minimum of 3".
b. A sitter and a sleeper require different firmnesses of latex. A sleeper usually likes something softer than a sitter because their weight is dispersed throughout the latex as opposed to a sitter’s weight being contained at one point and sinking in heavily at that one spot. A sleeper could comfortably sleep on 6" of latex, 3" would be unusual, though not unheard of.
You have to choose whether you want to sit on something softer so that the cushions are comfortable to sleep OR to sleep on something firmer so that the cushions are comfortable to sit on.

  1. There are a number of us that sell zippered GOTS organic covers, we call them ticking. Some of them have wool in them, some have a top waterproof layer that zips off for washing, some are made of a thick, flexible prewashed double knit fabric.

A lot of people who make cushions will have an inner and an outer case so that the inner case contains the latex and does not have to be removed when the outer is removed for washing.

  1. Mattress pads as in mattress protectors are a personal choice. If you feel you need one and you don’t get a ticking with a waterproof layer, then they could be right for you.

One more thought. Latex needs air circulation. When you are not using the latex in the RV, it is recommended to bring it into a climate controlled place to store so that it is not stuck in a humid environment. It is a natural product and like untreated fabrics, it will deteriorate faster than necessary in an box full of condensation.

Hey iluvs2fish,

Welcome to our Mattress Forum! :slight_smile:

Thanks for your appreciation and kind words; we’ll be moving your post shortly to a more appropriate topic conversation where other consumer members would have questions similar to yours (How to… Ask a Question: chronic pain person needs help choosing RV topper etc.) .

You certainly have quite a few questions “on the pipe” and thank you for the photos and details you provided. It looks like you are looking to replace the current “medium foam density cushions that feel very hard & uncomfortable” with more comfortable layering for your cozy RV set up. I see TMU trusted member DIY Natural Bedding has offered helpful insights to your questions. They specialize in mattress DIY and custom work with natural products, including options of cutting organic latex in any needed size and shape, providing unique sleep/ support solutions for non-traditional environments such as your RV.

Just curious, you are not stating what your BMI, sleeping preferences and body configuration is for each sleeper?

Thanks,
Sensei

Hi Phoenix,

Thank you so much for your response and sharing your knowledge! Was very helpful. Due to some family crisis, I could not respond sooner and we also did not move forward with any adjustment/ changes to mattress until recently.

We finally decided to try out a pillow top to see if it will help me but i still have some soreness when sleeping on my side. The pillowtop has 1.5 “of latex N5 radium talalay with 0.5” inches top and bottom of wool & cotton casing.

I think you are right that a split firmness for each side will help us. So I am considering going back to the previous soft core we had for my side and keeping the current firmer one for my husband.

My question is: how would one know if a core is too soft? With the previous one, it was fine for sleeping for me but when sitting on it ( not the edges but in the center just when waking up , etc) it seemed too soft and I felt like I was sinking in. Is this something I will just need to get used to? My 2 yr old son sleeps on the bed sometimes so worried about anything too soft.

And I am ok with not much edge support but was just worried if the core is too soft. The store told me they have some felt firming pads for free that can be placed between the core and top layer for slightly more firmness, but it may need to be replaced every year.

My husband is too apprehensive about trying another mattress and repeating process all over again.

Your thoughts will be very appreciated and will give me some direction. Thanks again in advance!

Hi Embee,

You are most welcome! Sorry to hear about the family crisis, hopefully, all is sorted out by now. :unsure:

I am glad that you are getting closer to your desired configuration and that you decided on a side to side split configuration to accommodate your husband. The pillowtop top layer you described has good materials and there are no red flags in terms of durability.

Usually Dunlop makes a better sitting surface and Talalay a “comfier” sleeping surface so it is usually a tough call which way to go, but generally, with most foams, you will sink more when sitting then when lying down. This is because of your weight being distributed on a smaller contact area when sitting than when sleeping. Think of the depth of the imprint of high heels shoes in snow vs slippers. Unfortunately, nobody can have it both ways and the first concern is having good alignment while sleeping which is when the body regenerates and recharges.

How far you sink into a mattress when you are sitting upright has very little to do with the support of a mattress which is designed for the weight distribution of a person when they are lying down. Latex, in particular, is so point elastic that you may sink in deeper when you are sitting on it and the weight is more concentrated (the material beside the point of compression has less effect or “drag” on the material that is compressing) and yet this same soft material is also very supportive and can provide good alignment when you are lying on it. Support (the ability to bear weight without bottoming out) is a means to achieve alignment when you are on a mattress in all your sleeping positions but neutral alignment is the goal and support in each area of the body is just the means to alignment … not the goal in itself.

The core’s primary function is connected with support and keeping the body in neutral alignment and only secondarily with comfort. Alignment itself is quite complex and involves different factors. The most important is spinal alignment from top to bottom of the spine and maintaining the natural curvature of the spine however it also involves “side to side” and “rotational” alignment and the alignment of the joints all of which can have a “natural” or “neutral” position along with a “learned” position. All of these interact with the ability of a layer(s) to re-distribute weight throughout the surface of the body in each sleeping position (and there are many variations of the 3 basic positions).

Your choice of a soft pillowtop will “allow” these types of positions more easily because of the characteristics of the foam. Latex has a higher compression modulus or “sag factor” than polyfoam and also a higher resiliency (stores more energy instead of absorbing and dispersing it and “bounces back” more readily). What this means is… people who have good posture both top to bottom and side to side will be more supported in this “good posture”. Those who have a more “learned” posture (or even a natural posture or body type or weight distribution that is outside of the “norm”) may have a feeling that the latex is “pushing back” as it tries to even out the alignment in all directions as opposed to poly and memory foam that will “allow” more sagging into the material.

There is more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here about firmness and support and in post #4 here may be helpful in clarifying the difference between mattress “support”, “pressure relief” and “feel” and it can also provide some useful insights into the reasons for pain and/or discomfort on a mattress.

Children have different support/comfort requirements than adults do. There are some links to the better forum posts Included in Post #2 here with topics about mattresses and children and includes some suggestions and guidelines and links to some good quality/value options as well.

I’d also make sure to revisit the Mattress buying personal value equation to help determine all the parts of that are most important to you.

Once you cover some of the readings I linked above you’d probably have enough information to move along in the decision process. Let us know how it goes.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

After reading your responses and re-reading and browsing through the mattress buying tips, looking at the value equation, we realized we have ended up going way over our budget for the mattress and latex topper and were not too happy about it. And comparing online options, we realized there was almost a $1600 price difference. Since the topper while making it softer for me, was still not giving me enough pressure relief ( sore hips), and the differential configuration was not giving us options to fine tune it more, we finally decided to return this one to the local store and go with SleepEZ 10" CA king split all Talalay latex. Thankfully the store had graciously extended their return period for us and have a 100% money back minus delivery fees.

I really owe it to you and this forum for giving me the confidence to actually go ahead with the online purchase. I wanted all Radium Talalay since we knew what had worked / didn’t work for us but they were out of stock and only had Talalay global. So after a lot of reading on this forum, talking to sleep ez and using the insights we gained with sleeping on the mattress from the local store, I decided to order a Firm-medium-soft all Talalay 3" layer for my side and a firm-soft-soft for my husband’s side. We just received the mattress and have to give it time for the break- in of course but hoping it works out this time. The talalay global’s firmness feels different from Radium for similar ILD’s. After our first night of sleeping on it , it feels too firm for me but husband seems to like it. This time I asked my husband to check out my alignment when lying on it and he felt my hips were sinking more than shoulders but while I did not have any pain lying on my back, on my sides, I felt like I needed more pressure relief for my hips. Need to figure out of its primary support issue vs pressure relief. Also being mindful of our posture. Not sure if we have a learned posture like you had described. Though in the past we have both never had issues with mattresses- loved our foam mattress ( bought online too) until it stopped being supportive. We also realized my husband’s spine alignment is not really neutral too while lying on the side as he has really broad shoulders that don’t seem to sink in as much. He originally tried the firm-firm-soft and felt he wanted firmer, so we put the firm on too so last night he slept on firm-soft-firm and didn’t have any pain in his shoulders so far but have to give it more time. Just wanted to share this update and thank you for all the support! Will reach out if we need help fine tuning the layers this time. Would you recommend waiting until 2 weeks to do any changes?

Feeling so grateful for this forum!

Hi Embee,

Congratulations on your new mattress from Sleep EZ . :cheer:

Thank you for your detailed update and your kind words about our forum. Most importantly … I am glad that your husband enjoys"his side" of the new mattress and it looks like you are also very close to a good match for you with a solution that allows for fine-tuning :).

I am glad to hear that you’ve been working closely with SleepEZ, one of our experts trusted members at the Mattress Underground that I think very highly of and that I believe that they compete well with the best in the industry in terms of their quality, value, service, knowledge, and transparency.

I am glad that you opted for a split system with customizable firmness and the ability to swap layers. You are correct that for any new configuration you may choose it may take some time for you to adjust to your mattress and for your new mattress to adjust to you. For this reason, I would avoid the temptation to swap layers too quickly and unless it is really clear to you that a configuration does not work I would give around 2-3 weeks before changing to a new configuration.

Thank you again for your kind words and support of the TMU forum! I am interested to learn about the results of your fine-tunning and how your new mattress turns out.

Phoenix

Hi
I’m looking for a new mattress and am struggling to decide. I’m 5’4", 170 lbs, am a side and back sleeper, and am looking for a twin mattress. I’m interested in one of these:
https://www.amazon.com/LINENSPA-Inch-Innerspring-Mattress-Twin/dp/B011397784/ref=pd_ybh_a_5?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=86H5KQ9WKJ4W30TP9C2B

Please let me know what you think.

So I live in Salem, OR, and I’ve learned that the Flexus Comfort max rest double regular doesn’t ship here, so that’s off the list.
I’ve never tried a latex mattress before. I’m not sure whether I’ll like it or not. I’ve always slept on spring mattresses. My current mattress is sagging a lot, and causing me a lot of hip and back pain.
I’ve been reading a lot but am struggling to make up my mind.
My budget is $650. Portland is too far away for me to travel.
Thank you for any help.

Hey 282930,

Welcome to the TMU forum :slight_smile: ! Thanks for your question.

[quote]I’m looking for a new mattress and am struggling to decide. I’m 5’4", 170 lbs, am a side and back sleeper, and am looking for a twin mattress…So I live in Salem, OR, and I’ve learned that the Flexus Comfort max rest double regular doesn’t ship here, so that’s off the list.
I’ve never tried a latex mattress before. I’m not sure whether I’ll like it or not. I’ve always slept on spring mattresses. My current mattress is sagging a lot, and causing me a lot of hip and back pain.
I’ve been reading a lot but am struggling to make up my mind.
My budget is $650. Portland is too far away for me to travel.
Thank you for any help.[/quote]

For clarity, I’ve combined highlights of your two separate posts into this one, just have a few questions for you. See that you’re looking for a twin mattress, specifically one for RV use. Can you describe your current RV environment/ set up? Are you an occasional RV enthusiast or regular traveler? Also curious to know what brand your current twin is and maybe some aspects you liked about it.

Thanks,
Sensei

I’m NOT looking for an RV mattress.
I have an old spring mattress that my sister slept on when we were kids. I’m not sure of the brand. It was fine until recently, when the sagging became too much. I was diligent about flipping and rotating it.
I’m have really mostly slept on spring mattresses.

I’m looking for a spring mattress in Salem, Oregon. I’ve decided to forget about latex mattresses, because I’ve never used one and don’t know if I’d like it, and they’re more expensive.
I’d like it to be flippable. I’d also like it to be firm.
I’ve been reading this site a lot, and find it helpful and useful.
Does this one look good: https://www.morfurniture.com/product/sherwood-premier.html

@282930 - The mattress you linked to is very inexpensive, but you should note that it is recommended for youth and children. That indicates that it is not very durable and would not be a good choice for normal sized adults. Sorry but I doubt you’ll find a mattress of reasonable quality in that price range.