Hybrid Latex Advice Sought -- Green Sleep Niu vs. Other Options

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
4

Hi AnalogJ,

There are many variables that can contribute to the sleeping temperature of a mattress besides just the type of foam used in a mattress but latex is generally the most breathable and “coolest” of all the foam categories so you will generally hear less complaints about latex sleeping hot than any other type of foam but of course none of the foam materials will be as “cool” as natural fibers. There is more about the many variables that combine together to affect sleeping temperature in post #2 here (including the type of quilting in the mattress cover and your mattress protector, sheets, and bedding).

In my opinion no. The hybrid clone that they use on their plantations are one of the most common Hevea Brasiliensis clones that are planted in South East Asia. You can see some comments about this in post #6 here. The “value” of a Greensleep mattress would be based more on it’s design and the benefits of that design and the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you but not because their 100% natural Dunlop latex is higher quality than many other manufacturers that also produce 100% natural Dunlop.

Phoenix

5

hey phoenix,

this is the only post i could find using a search referencing Bay Bed & Mattress and I was wondering if I wasn’t searching properly or something. I live 2 blocks away and was going to check them out but was looking for some of the members experiences or any other information directly regarding the company.

Thanks

6

Hi ctarango,

I’m not sure why your search didn’t produce any results (see the help tab here) but a forum search on Baybed (you can just click the link) will bring up more comments and feedback about them.

As you probably know from reading the information on the site they are one of the members here which means I think very highly of them and they compete well with the best in the industry in terms of quality, value, and the service they provide to their customers.

Phoenix

7

Hi AnalogJ,

You’ve probably already seen this but just in case … the Boston list is here and there may be some other manufacturers or retailers that make or sell latex/innerspring hybrids as well (although they may not be component mattresses that can be customized after a purchase).

Phoenix

8

Another question, Phoenix, if I may. What importance do you put on having a 2-sided mattress? The Gardner latex mattresses (including the hybrid) are not 2-sided or flippable. Kirk there thinks that mostly what wears out in a mattress are the comfort layers.

As we have discussed, all the layers of the Green Sleep Niu (as well as other compartmentalized mattresses) can have all layers be “flipped”, if desired. Even with the support layers (and if I sleep on the firmer side of the support layer and my wife sleeps on the softer side), we could essentially flip those by us sleeping on the opposite sides by flipping them internally.

So what, in your opinion, is gained by having a flippable mattress? What is getting the more even wear – the comfort layers, the support layers, or both? And how much importance do you place on this in the equation?

9

Hi AnalogJ,

You can read about the pros and cons of a two sided mattress in post #2 and #3 here and the posts it links to. Latex is a very durable material even in a one sided mattress but a two sided mattress will certainly last longer than the equivalent one sided version.

I think most people that are knowledgeable about mattresses would agree with this. Mattresses will soften and break down from the top down and the weak link of most mattresses is in the comfort layers not the support cores.

The comfort layers are the weak link and the most subject to wear and tear from constant compression so the comfort layers will be the biggest beneficiary of a two sided mattress that can be flipped. With more durable materials such as latex a two sided mattress may be less important for some people than the ability to use more complex designs that may be a better match for them in terms of PPP but this is a matter of each person’s preference between the tradeoffs involved. With less durable materials in a comfort layer then a two sided mattress would be more important. You can see some of the foam quality/density guidelines I suggest in post #4 here and as you can see a lower density less durable foam would be suitable in a two sided mattress but not as suitable or durable in a one sided mattress.

Phoenix

10

Hi Phoenix -

So we went to Fly By Night. VERY nice people there. We looked at the Berkeley Ergonomics needs. The closest to our liking was the Alpine Firm. My wife is less picky. They couldn’t quite get the mattress with the base dialed in for me. It was pretty good, but couldn’t get it to be exactly just right. While lying on my side, I either felt aligned horizontally, but felt my body want to pivot backwards a bit, slightly twisting my spine in the process, or I felt balanced, but one hip felt like it was jutting out a bit as though I were administering a hip check. Paul and Jill there kept playing with the base, but could only get one aspect right, but undo the other in the process. Pretty good, but I recall that the Green Sleep Niu nailed it. I’m going to go back and recheck that mattress.

In the meantime, BE as well as Gardner uses polyester fabric casing on their pocket coils. They said that it would be more durable than cotton. Green Sleep uses cotton, instead.

Does what is wrapped around the pocket coils affect breathability? I would think cotton would be better, yes?

11

Hi AnalogJ,

The breathability of a fabric will depend on the thickness of the fibers and the tightness of the weave more than the type of material. Where they would be most different would be in the ability of each fiber to absorb and wick moisture. Natural fibers can absorb moisture inside the fiber itself while synthetic fibers don’t. This is the main reason that natural fibers can be better at regulating temperature than synthetic fibers but regardless of which type of fabric is used to wrap the coils the innerspring system in the mattress will still have plenty of space outside of the coils and would be a breathable component. The innerspring will also have less effect on the ventilation and temperature regulation of the mattress than the foam layers that are on top of it and the fabric and materials used in the quilting and ticking of the mattress (along with the type of mattress protector you use and the type of sheets and bedding). There is more about the variables that can affect the sleeping temperature of a mattress in post #2 here but I wouldn’t be concerned about the effect of any innerspring on the sleeping temperature of a mattress because any innerspring will allow for plenty of airflow.

Phoenix

12

Hi Phoenix -

We’re just about there, but I do have a couple of questions or thoughts I’d like to pose to you for your opinion:

  1. I went back to The Organic Mattress to check out the Niu. They only had it displayed with the coir side of the pocket coils up. I had to persuade the owner to flip one of them so I could feel it both ways (with the wool side up, which is softer).

Compared to the BE Firm (which uses Tallalay) or Gardner Tallalay over pocket coils, the Niu is much firmer, Some of that may have to do with the fact that the Green Sleep uses Dunlop instead of Tallalay as well as that GS uses a much tighter cotton velour than the BE for the covering. The Gardner display model uses a more traditional poly knit covering.

The Gardner is more cushiony and softer on my shoulder, but I don’t quite feel as balanced laterally as I do with the Niu. On the Niu, on the other hand, I feel more pushback on my shoulder to the point of a bit of pain, and I don’t sink in as much in general. BUT, my body feels more balanced, both laterally as well as horizontally. When I have a wool topper that Organic Mattress had there (a 1.5"), then I get the softness (lack of pushback) in the shoulder so it’s comfortable, yet still feel the balance. With the wool topper, it’s much more of a plush, really nicely enveloped experience, and still gives me the balanced support.

The owner of The Organic Mattress, John Muccino, insists, however, that I shouldn’t buy a mattress if it only feels perfectly right if I need a topper, that a mattress should feel great by itself with no topper needed. Even though he sells them, he thinks toppers ought not be needed, and that they only fix over problems. If I’m being told I need a topper, he says, I’m being sold a line. I felt up at the Kittery Clean Bedroom store that the combination of the Niu and wool topper seemed just right. From I have been reading, since we’re talking about the comfort layer, the topper, versus the support layer, I don’t see the validity of his point. What do you think?

If what John says IS true, then the Gardner mattress might be better because it’s softer/squishier and I feel little pushback on my shoulder laying directly on it and would need the topper much less. But while my body feels pretty good on the Gardner mattress, and much better than what I am sleeping on now, I don’t feel quite the same zoned in balance that I do on the Niu (The rear of my butt tends to sink back into the mattress more than my hips, making my body angle slightly backwards when lying on my side, causing my back to twist.).

  1. Fire retardancy. Kirk at Gardner Mattress told me he uses a layer of rayon/poly batting underneath the covering of all his mattresses, regardless of type, because he was told by a FR government official that it is the only way, given US law, that a mattress can meet the US code. When I mentioned mattresses such as Green Sleep, he says that they HAVE to be using a poly or rayon batting, that they couldn’t use wool exclusively because it wouldn’t meet code. Kirk said that he has asked the official if there was any way that wool could be used for FR and the official said no, not for mattresses sold in the US. Kirk told me that if a store or company tells me they use wool for FR purposes, they’re lying. They all have to use a rayon or poly to meet US fire retardancy codes. Green Sleep says that they’re making natural and organic mattresses (while rayon IS made from plant material), but I’m being told at retailers that they don’t use anything but cotton and wool between the covering and the latex. Do you know anything about this and the US rules for fire retardancy?

  2. Floor models. What do you think about the prospect of buying a floor model mattres? The Organic Mattress has a floor model of the Niu for 20% off retail. That’s almost $600 off, quite a bit for us. A woman salesperson said that they don’t get huge traffic flow anyway, and the Niu is not one of their popular ones, so it hasn’t seen a lot of use.

It has been on the floor for close to 6 months and they have a new one in the warehouse. The velour cotton cover has a light reddish stain over several inches on one side, otherwise the bed looks fine. The shop is within an old house from the 1700s, and you can see and feel the floor slope at one point, due to settling. The bed has been half over that point drop, and since half the bed sits on the sloped floor, part of the mattress also slopes. I don’t know if that makes a difference. The inner pocket coil sections have both been laying coir side up for its life. He has felt that customers didn’t need to feel the difference between the two and having the firm and medium soft sides both up only confuses them (??).

Anyway, if we go with the Niu, is it worth going for the floor model for the savings, or do we need to go with a new one for the extra ~$600? Both will have full warranties, for what it’s worth.

  1. A slightly off-topic question –

John at The Organic Mattress told me that Latex International Tallalay is crap and that even their all-natural 100% Tallalay isn’t 100% latex. He says that he knows they use filler such as crushed clamshells. He says he knows someone who used to work for LI and got the lowdown. Know anything about this?

I’ll say this about The Organic Mattress, regardless of the mattress, they get the mattress you order shipped to them first, then deliver to your home at no charge, including removal of the old mattress. This is in contrast to The Clean Bedroom, which charges you $300 for a third party to deliver your mattress from the factory and take away your old mattress. The Organic Mattress also says they come out to your home once per year and either do a full mattress flip, or will flip the pocket coil of the Green Sleep, in our particular case. Also at no charge. An interesting service.

After I was kind of adamant about wanting to try the softer side, he finally relented and both of us opened up the mattress and did the flip. A bit of a pain to rezip the whole thing, but not the end of the world. You have to make sure that coir edge stays to the outside of the mattress for the side support.

So thanks again for any help/advice you can provide.

13

Hi AnalogJ,

I don’t agree with this. If you have a chance to test a mattress/topper combination in person and the “sleeping system” is a better match for you than another “sleeping system” then that’s what I would choose regardless of whether all the layers were inside a cover or one of the layers was added as a topper. In some cases … having one layer outside the cover can make a meaningful difference for some people compared to having the same layers inside a cover (see posts #3 and #4 here and this topic). To me how well the “sleeping system” works for someone as a whole is much more important than whether it includes all the layers inside the mattress cover or not. I would avoid buying a mattress however with the intention of adding a topper that you haven’t tested in person although even here a topper can be a useful backup for those who end up choosing a mattress that is too firm and there are no other better solutions or options available.

Wool can certainly be used by itself without any other type of fire barrier to pass the fire regulations … see post #2 here.

This would really be a personal preference issue and would depend on how you feel about buying a mattress that other people have used to some degree (some people wouldn’t be comfortable with it and others would) and on how you feel about any lack of warranty (many warranties specifically exclude floor models). For example I know my DH would say “absolutely not” and would probably shudder at the thought of buying a mattress that other people have used or tested while for me it really wouldn’t be a significant issue by itself if the pros outweighed the cons. The limited use that a floor model would have had wouldn’t likely make much or even any difference at all in terms of durability with a high quality material like latex.

I certainly don’t agree with his rather extreme assessment although it’s correct that they use a filler in their latex (see here) to increase the firmness and/or reduce the cost but this certainly doesn’t make it a “crap” material by any means and in some cases a filler can improve some of the properties of latex. They have also had some sporadic quality control issues over the last few years that have been frustrating to manufacturers but they appear to have improved over the course of the last few months or year or so and more recently I am hearing much less about this from manufacturers. It’s also true that no latex core is 100% rubber because they all need various chemicals to be added to make the latex so the actual rubber content of a 100% natural Dunlop latex core would be less than 100% (see post #18 here).

Phoenix

14

As I wrote in my previous post, there would be a full warranty regardless, with the Niu.

15

Hi AnalogJ,

If that wasn’t an issue then I think it would really boil down to how you personally feel about sleeping on a mattress that has been used by others or may have some minor or more cosmetic issues.

Phoenix

16

Do you think 20% off is enough of a discount? Would you be satisfied with a 20% discount as enough to justify the minor cosmetic issue? Or at that price (again, we’re talking about a $2925 retail mattress), would you just cough up the extra for a new, out of the box one for the sake of not worrying? I don’t know what the markup is of these these smaller company mattresses.

17

Hi AnalogJ,

You can see my comments in your other topic here.

Phoenix

18

By the way, Pheonix, one addendum – John at The Organic Mattress told me that, in his “professional opinion”, the Green Sleep Niu is not a mattress he recommends for side sleepers because it’s “too firm”. He recommends all latex mattresses instead. I have never heard this before. By itself, I do feel that there isn’t enough give or sink with regard to the contact with my shoulder, but with the wool topper, it solved that issue, albeit at $600 for the topper. But hey, once you’re getting into higher priced levels of mattresses, or come to think of it, any level of mattress, if it’s the difference between comfort and not (knowing that a topper isn’t going to fix a saggy mattress and it’s not in this case), $600 isn’t too bad.

19

For anyone in Southern California or elsewhere looking for the Berkeley Ergonomics product at a great deal, I found it at a store in Irvine called Cantoni. The price was better than anywhere else (I checked three different stores) on this all natural and organic product. The latex is from Europe and has no fillers, the cotton cover is organic. As you may or may not know, wool is the best natural FR (fireproofing) you can buy and has no toxic chemicals in it. The wool in the Berkeley bed is generous and all natural and the coil system, as explained by Cantoni’s highly knowledgeable mattress specialist Richard, is from Sweden and is dual tempered carbide steel - built like a tank. The Berkeley Ergonomics bed comes with a 10 year non-prorated warranty, but I have been told by many customers while doing my research that the mattress has lasted them 14+ years thus far. After a year of my own research, I am sold on this product. I have tested every organic mattress by Savvy Rest, Natura, Naturepedic, Vi-Spring (Cantoni carries this as well - but it’s out of my price range). For price, cleanliness, durability and comfort, the Berkeley Ergonomics product just can’t be beat. I hope my extensive research helps some of you find your next mattress and happy shopping! :slight_smile: Wildon

P.S. I have included a picture that I shot while at Cantoni. The bed on the left is the deluxe with a Euro Topper. If you buy it with the topper, you can turn the topper instead of the entire bed, which is better on the back for sure! As Richard explained to me, he has had many customers just buy a new topper after 10 plus years at a fraction of the cost of a new bed. The bed underneath stays unblemished and the topper takes 90% of the bodies abuse.

800Ă—600 27 KB

20

Hi wildon1,

I’ve switched your post into its own topic and deleted your other 6 posts which were overly promotional and were mostly duplicates and on the edge of spamming the forum … both of which are against the rules of the forum here.

Cantoni does sell 2 mattresses made by Berkeley Ergonomics but they are finished mattresses that don’t have a zip cover and are not component mattresses like the regular Berkeley Ergonomics line and are not directly comparable to the other Berkeley Ergonomics mattresses. They don’t have the same ability to customize the mattress by changing various layers or components so they can’t be customized in the same way as the “regular” BE mattresses. This is also the reason that they aren’t listed on the retail finder on the Berkeley Ergonomics site.

Having said that … if they use the same materials as the other Berkeley Ergonomics mattresses (natural latex, pocket coils, microcoils, and organic cotton covers that are quilted with wool) then there would be no lower quality materials or weak links that would compromise the durability and useful life of the mattress.

I’m glad you are happy with your new mattress purchase (and congratulations on your new mattress) and your mattress certainly uses good quality materials but each person can have very ideas about the parts of their personal value equation that are most important to them and which mattress they believe is the “best value” for their own unique criteria and circumstances.

Please be cautious when you are posting here to make sure your posts are within the forum rules.

Phoenix

21

Hi AnalogJ,

For me the bottom line is always whether the mattress or “sleeping system” is a good match in terms of PPP (how well you sleep) and whether the materials in the mattress or sleeping system are good quality (how long you sleep well). While “averages” or more generic suggestions can work for many people … IMO personal experience always trumps theory because each of us are unique.

As I’ve often mentioned … a mattress is one of the most important purchases we make and can have a bigger effect on our overall wellbeing than almost anything else we buy … and it’s certainly worth it to get it right. When you look back on a mattress purchase in a decade or so most people will remember much more about how well they slept and how long they slept well than they will about relatively small differences in price spread out over the years of ownership.

Phoenix

22

Question: If the Cantoni bed doesn’t have the zippered compartment, how are the top layers able to be flipped or switched out as the salesperson promotes?

23

Hi AnalogJ,

They can’t be. I think they may have been referring to flipping the topper (or replacing it down the road) to help with longevity.

Phoenix