If Iām understanding you correctly you have tried two combinations so far ā¦ is that correct?
Also if Iām understanding correctly you had some initial pressure points with both both of these combinations when you went to sleep at night but this was gone when you woke up in the morning but the difference with the softer configuration was that you had some back pain in the morning that you didnāt have with the first combination. Is this also correct?
What is SleepEZ currently suggesting that you try after you tried the second combination?
If Iām understanding you correctly you have tried two combinations so far ā¦ is that correct?
Also if Iām understanding correctly you had some initial pressure points with both both of these combinations when you went to sleep at night but this was gone when you woke up in the morning but the difference with the softer configuration was that you had some back pain in the morning that you didnāt have with the first combination. Is this also correct?
What is SleepEZ currently suggesting that you try after you tried the second combination?
Phoenix[/quote]
Yes two combinations so far. The first for 3 weeks, the second for 1 week. I briefly tried, like for 10 min. soft, soft, firm, extra firm, but decided it was too soft. I also briefly tried the current configuration on the other side of my bed, soft, firm, firm, extra firm, and decided its too firm.
Yes pressure points with both configurations, which seemed to mostly go away by morning. However now, with the second configuration, Iām waking up with a still back.
Sleep EZ said to give the second combination more time, but I think they were unsure what the next move would be.
Any softer than what Iām trying now would lack proper support.
[quote]Sleep EZ said to give the second combination more time, but I think they were unsure what the next move would be.
Any softer than what Iām trying now would lack proper support. [/quote]
The next move would depend on what happens after you give the second combination a little more time so itās always a good idea to be āuncertainā about future changes until you have a good indication of how your body responds to the current one. The only way to know whether a combination provides good primary and secondary support (and pressure relief) is based on your actual sleeping experience and the āsymptomsā you experience on each combination.
It sounds like you may still be going through an adjustment period if some of your āsymptomsā are gone in the morning.
The most effective approach is a slow and incremental āone step at a timeā approach that lets your body adjust slowly and assesses the differences between your āsymptomsā on each combination as a reference point and āpointerā to the next.
I decided the second combination was not supporting me enough, based on a few things. One, waking up with a stiff back, two, after lying on a Temperpedic, and not feeling an uncomfortable pinch on my right side, when Iām lying on my left side. I feel the uncomfortableness almost immediately, with the second combination, soft, medium, medium, extra firm, when lying on my side. It just feels like Iām sinking in too much, when on my side. So back to the first combination, soft, medium, firm, extra firm. It felt great for a few nights, just like the first time I got the mattress, then after a few nights I start feeling pressure points, It does however feel more supportive. My thoughts are, I need something in softness, that is in between the first and second combination. I think if I had one more layer of even 1" of extra soft, on top of the soft, medium, firm, extra firm, I might be there. My next thought is, I wonder how much the wool cover is taking away from the softness of the latex, and would the cotton cover provide a softer more pressure reliving feel?
The other thing that throws a monkey wrench in trying to figure this thing out, is the fact that I can lie for hours on my foam sofa, on either my side or back, and not feel any pressure points. And the sofa definitely has a firmer feel than the soft, medium, firm, extra firm combo.
How far a mattress āfeels likeā you are sinking in can be very deceptive because this is so subjective and I would tend to go by the specific symptoms you feel on each combination (see post #22 here). In other words I would first focus on the āwhatā (your specific symptoms and how they change on each combination) before focusing on the āwhyā (the reason for that specific symptom).
The previous post I linked (post #2 here) has more about the different symptoms that people may experience on a mattress and some of the most likely reasons for them and Post #2 here and post #4 here also has more information about primary or ādeepā support and secondary or āsurfaceā support and their relationship to each other and to firmness and pressure relief and the ārolesā of different layers in a mattress that may be helpful in clarifying the reasons for your symptoms as well.
If I understand you correctly on your first combination (S/M/F/XF) you experienced ā¦
This could be an indication that the mattress was too firm but the shoulder pain could also be a pillow issue as well and the pain in your gluteus could be an alignment issue that comes from sinking down too far and stretching the muscles (itās not common for someone to feel a pressure issue when they are lying on their back).
When you tried the second combination (S/M/M/XF) you experienced ā¦
Based on your feedback this seems to be too soft.
Since your couch is probably firmer than your mattress it may be worth trying a medium layer on top with a soft layer underneath it (or even a medium layer under it) and then F/F or F/XF under that to see how this compares to the other two combinations you have tried. Itās possible that you are mistaking āsymptomsā that come from alignment issues with āsymptomsā that come from pressure points.
There are several combinations that would be in between the two combinations you have tried although some people may not feel much difference between them since the top two layers are the same in both and changes in deeper layers are less noticeable for most people than changes to the top two layers.
S/M/F/F and S/M/F/M would likely feel slightly softer than the first combination and firmer than the second for those that would notice a difference between them but given that your couch is probably firmer than your mattress I would be tempted to at least try the firmer top layer to see how your symptoms and experience change.
You could test this to some degree by unzipping the cover and rolling it back so you would be sleeping more directly on the latex with just your sheet and mattress protector on top of it.
I would be cautious though about making too many changes too quickly because your experience over just a night or two may be an āanomalyā more than a āpatternā and if you make changes that are too big or too quickly (rather than slow incremental changes) your body may not have a chance to ācatch upā to the changes you are making so I would always only make one change at a time so you can ālearnā from the effects of a single change and how it affects your experience compared to the previous combination.
Iām definitely an extreme case when it comes to finding the right mattress. But this go around pales in comparison to the shear hell I went through 10 years ago, when I didnāt have a clue where to start. I went through probably 4 or 5 inter spring mattresses, the SAM air mattress, a Supplepedic memory foam mattress, and then finally ended up with a latex mattress. This was over the corse of 6 months. At least I feel like Iām on the right track this time, thanks to this site and your help.
So Iāve been following your suggestions, making slow changes, and Iāve made some progress, although short lived.
First I noticed that my Temperpedic pillow was like a flat pancake in the morning, so I bought a new one. Same thing though, completely flattened by morning. When I first got my mattress I tried the shredded latex pillows that came with it, and thought they were the next best thing to the Temperpedic contour pillows Iāve been using for years, so I started rotating them in once in a while.
I am now using the shredded latex pillows exclusively. It seems they just needed a little breaking in, and getting used to, but now I absolutely love them. Because they donāt flatten out, theyāve helped a little with pressure points on my shoulder, while lying on my side. They also work fine sleeping on my back, because they can easily be adjusted by shifting the latex around. So a little progress with pressure points while lying on my side, but Iām still waking up at times with a sore and stiff back, and experiencing pressure points while lying on my back. I should mention though that my job is physically demanding at times, which may explain why Iāll sleep just fine some nights, and not others. This is all with the soft, med., firm, extra firm combo.
Last night was one of those nights I found myself tossing and turning, so at 1 in the morning I decided to try removing the wool mattress cover, and remaking the bed. I immediately felt a difference for the better. No pressure points while on my back, and less while on my side. I still however woke up with a sore stiff back, which suggests I go firmer, but thatās going to wrong direction for reliving the pressure points on my shoulder, while lying on my side. Is zoning my only option?
One more question. Is there any way to objectively determine if my back is properly alined while lying on the mattress? Perhaps having someone obverse the straightness of my spine, maybe even with the use of a laser? There has to be a way to take some of the guess work out of this whole process.
I would keep in mind that stiffness can come from lying in a position where your spine, joints, or muscles arenāt fully relaxed and in their neutral position for an extended period of time and this can be the result of a mattress that is too firm or a mattress that is too soft. Both can lead to alignment issues and stiffness (and if this is only an issue that happens sometimes and not others then it could also be related to your activities during the day as well). It may be worth trying either firmer top comfort layers (say medium over soft) or firmer transition or support layers (say soft over firm over medium) to see how your experience changes so you can ālearnā from how your experience and symptoms change with firmness changes in comfort and support layers that go in different ādirectionsā.
There isnāt a way that can confirm this āscientificallyā without specialized equipment (and there is also some debate about the type of equipment and testing methods that do the best job for this because itās so complex). Some of the better sleep studies on posture and alignment and sleep ergonomics that Iāve seen had to design their own equipment and methodology ā¦ see the study here that includes the following quote
ā¦
This book is one of the best Iāve read and has two chapters devoted to measuring and assessing spinal alignment in a lab (scroll down to the description of chapter 3 and chapter 4).
Different people will have different āneutralā postures and physiology so good alignment can sometimes ālook differentā for different people but from a consumer perspective the most reliable way to assess alignment would be based on āeyeballsā which compares your alignment when you are standing up straight with good posture with your sleeping posture and based on your actual experience and āsymptomsā when you sleep on a mattress (see this article and post #11 here).
Iāve decided Iām throwing in the towel on the Sleep EZ 13000. I feel like Iām chasing a moving target, as the feel of the bed seems to be changing quite regularly. I did figure out that I needed more support than the soft, med. firm, extra firm combination was offering. I had some success trying med, soft, firm, extra firm. Hardly any stiffness in my low back in the morning after two nights, although I did not like the firmer feel of the bed. On the third night, I started feeling like I was sinking in too deep again on my hips and core, so I moved to the other side, which was the same combination, med, soft, firm, extra firm, and it felt like a completely different bed. Iāve only been sleeping on the one side of the bed for a month and a half, so I would not expect the other side to feel so much different in that short of time. This leads me to believe I may have some defective layers. Another issue Iāve discovered is, as you move closer to the inside edge of the split layer, it sinks in deeper, as it does if you move closer to the outside edge of the bed, which one would expect. But now Iām surrounded by two perimeters that change if I happen to get close to them.
This is most disappointing, as Iām now completely lost as to what my next move will be. Add to that, I have no idea how Iām going to be able to repack my latex mattress into the four boxes it came in, as it looked like it mustāve been compressed with the aid of some mechanical device.
Good luck on your searches. I just sent back our Sleep EZ 10000 yesterday. It came in 3 boxes and I had to find another smaller box to put the cover in by itself. I used a shop vac to shrink them down in plastic and packing tape. Definitely goes better with two people. Iāll say that Sleep EZ is great to deal with, even if you are returning. No questions asked and if you have questions about how to ship it back they will gladly help. Super customer service for sure. They will email you the labels to ship back UPS. Good luck on your hunt. Iām giving Brooklyn Bedding a shot with the Aloe Alexis and hoping it wonāt be as bouncy as the 10000.
The 10000 was ok for me. My wife did not like it. We do not have much for local options so we had never even tried latex before. She felt it was too bouncy and said it felt like it reminded her of laying on a cheap air mattress. If we wouldāve driven 2 hours to try an all latex bed I could have avoided trying to order one.
Iām sorry to hear that your SleepEZ mattress didnāt work out as well as you hoped for but at least you had the foresight to choose a mattress that has a good return policy.
There are some suggestions in post #5 here that may be helpful and SleepEZ will likely have some good suggestions as well.
Outside of the suggestions and guidelines in the tutorial ā¦ it seems that you are more sensitive than most people in terms of the range of comfort/support (PPP) that works well for you so post #2 here has more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (either online or locally) that can help you minimize the risks involved with each of them of making a choice that doesnāt turn out as well as you hoped for.
In one of your previous posts you mentioned you are in the Denver area and the better options or possibilities Iām aware of in the area (subject to the guidelines here) are listed in post #2 here.
Thanks again Phoenix. Iām aware of all the mattress companies you mentioned in the Denver area, except for Haikudesigns.
I bought my last mattress from Innomax, it was their Convert-A-Bed, with latex inserts. I did look into that bed again, but theyāve lowered the quality of the materials they use.
I tried one more combination with my Sleep EZ mattress, soft, firm, med. extra firm. It helped with low back pain in the morning, but did not provide enough pressure relief lying on my side. I really think my only option left is going with a mattress that allows me to tweak the zoning from head to toe. Iām surprised there are not more companies offering this feature with latex beds. I would think it would help with increasing their customer satisfaction, for those problem cases like mine. As you know Flo Beds offers this feature, but Iām not trilled with the warranty they offer, only a 5 year non-prorated.
This at least indicates that there is a combination that produces good alignment for you without zoning and once you have good alignment then itās usually possible to do some additional fine tuning for pressure relief and comfort with a mattress pad or a topper that is āenoughā to provide the additional pressure relief you need but not so thick/soft that it affects alignment or in some cases by changing the mattress cover but of course this can also involve some trial and error.
If a zoned mattress is a good āmatchā for you then this type of fine tuning may not be necessary but itās also a little more complex and specialized to find a zoned mattresses where the layers and the zones work well for a specific person. Youāve probably read this but just in case you havenāt there is more about the pros and cons of zoning in post #11 here and the posts it links to.
Warranties only cover defects in a mattress or the materials inside it and not the gradual loss of comfort and support that is the reason that most people need to replace a mattress and if a latex layer is defective then it will usually show up in the first year of ownership . There is more about warranties in post #174 here.
To answer my original question, why is my foam cushion sofa more comfortable that my new latex mattress?
Iāve come to the conclusion that there must be some defective layers.
I did figure out that I needed to go firmer than my original configuration, extra firm, firm, med, soft.
My last post, I was going with, extra firm, firm, soft, med. and I had made some progress. But a week later I started sinking in too far, and waking up with back pain again.
As a last ditch effort, I tried, extra firm, soft, firm, med, and had almost a week of great sleep. But towards the end of the week, the same thing, I started sinking in too far and experiencing low back pain.
When I switched to the other half of the mattress, which was configured the same, extra firm, soft, firm, med. I was able to sleep fine, and woke up with no back pain.
No way latex should break down and soften that much in a week. The only thing I can figure is, one or more of the layers are defective.
At this point the whole mattress needs to be returned, as there is no way Iām going to try and figure out which of the layers are bad.
Not sure I want to gamble again with a mattress from the internet. Yeah Iām more than a little frustrated!
Iām sorry to hear that your mattress isnāt working out for you but itās very unlikely that one of your layers are defective and it would be almost unheard of that more than one of them are.
Pressure relief or alignment issues arenāt an indication of a defective layer but unfortunately there will always be a small percentage of people that donāt do well on any of the available combinations that they try.
While there may still be some combinations or options that you havenāt tried (including 3 layer combinations) ā¦ I can certainly understand that there comes a point where the process of rearranging or changing layers can become more complex and/or time consuming than itās worth and and in these few cases the good news is that you had the foresight to choose a manufacturer that has a good return policy.
But if the feel of the mattress changes significantly over the course of one week, and the other side of the mattress, which is configured the same, feels completely different, something is amiss. I sept on a latex mattress for 10 years, and the feel of it never changed that significantly, until the end of 10 years.
I really think I have a defect layer somewhere on the side Iāve been sleeping on. Sleep EZ asked me to compare the two sides by opening up the mattress and testing each layer. But naturally the side Iāve been sleeping on 2 months is going to be somewhat softer than the other side, which Iāve only slept on a few times. Not sure if playing detective here is going to help sort this out.
Logically I should sleep on the other side for 2 months, then compare each layer from both sides. This however puts me past my 90 day return period. And for that reason alone, the mattress is probably going to have to go back, and Iāll start from scratch again, somewhere else.
I donāt know the specifics of the latex mattress that you used to sleep on but there are hundreds of latex mattress designs that are all very different from each other (and many are only "partly latex) and will feel very different so this may not be a good reference point. It would be useful if you knew the specifics of the latex mattress you used to own.
One of the comments that you made here is interesting ā¦
How long did you sleep on this side of the mattress and did the same thing happen?
If it didnāt ā¦ then at least you would know that if there is a defective layer that itās in the āotherā side.
If there is a defective layer in your mattress then itās most likely to be in the soft layer (although of course this isnāt certain)
Given your comments about sleeping on the couch as well and since your mattress is softer than your couch this may be a pointer that you may do best with no soft layer at all.
If you are open to considering it then it may be worthwhile trying a 3 layer combination such as XF/F/M or even XF/M/M (the cover will be loose but that would be OK for the experiment) to see how it works for you and how itās different from the combinations you have tried.
My last latex mattress was from Innomax. It was their Convert-A-bed. It had 2 high density 6" latex inserts, one for each side, and then a 1" zoned layer of poly foam, and a 4" layer of med density convoluted latex, with a 1" or so layer of Dacron polyester fill on the top. So there were some inferior materials used in this mattress, poly foam and Dacron. But the main point here is, the feel of the mattress pretty much remained the same through most of itās life.
I will be sleeping on the other side to see how that pans out over the next week.
And I will also try the 3 layer approach. Those I believe are my last options.
Thanks for the details about your last mattress. If the top layer was also medium density latex then this could also āpoint toā a firmer sleeping surface working better for you.
A similar version in a 4 layer approach (that would also verify whether the issue was with your soft layer) would be XF/F/M/M on one side of your mattress (the other side would have both soft layers).
If you can confirm that the issue only happens with a soft layer then it may also be worth talking to SleepEZ about exchanging your soft layer.