Hello, Phoenix and others. About 5 years ago I came here for info and advice on a new bed, and I ended up with a setup that was really great. So thank you, Phoenix, for you help back then.
So, around Jan 2013 I put a firm innerspring, without any comfort layer to speak of, together with a 3" medium ILD blended talalay topper. It was perfect for us for several years, but at this point the indentations in the topper are really bad, and I can feel the mattress below (Iām around 160 lbs, btw).
I loved this setup for a few years, so I am close to simply pulling the trigger on another 3" talalay topper, but Iād like to increase the life expectancy this time around, if possible, because these toppers are pricey.
Iām thinking maybe a 1" firm dunlop below a 2" talalay this time. Does that seem reasonable? Any other layer combinations I should consider to keep the feel similar to the current configuration, while adding some durability?
What youāre considering certainly could provide a bit more durability, but of course you will be changing your comfort.
Keeping the same ILD of Talalay, you could try out 2" of that Talalay on top with 1" of Dunlop underneath that is āmediumā (Dunlop of a similar ILD will feel a bit firmer than the corresponding Talalay) or 1" of Dunlop that if āfirmā for a bit more difference. You could also use 1" of a āfirmā Talalay instead of the Dunlop. All of these things will slightly firm up your overall comfort, as youāre taking away 33% of your original 3" comfort layer and replacing that with a firmer piece of latex.
If you wish to go to 4" total, you would have more options, starting with the 2" of āmediumā Talalay on top, the you could choose to go with 2" of āmediumā Dunlop underneath, 2" of āfirmā Dunlop or 2" of āfirmā Talalay. These offerings would all firm up the feel overall from your current set up even more. You of course could opt to keep a 3" āmediumā Talalay on top and then place a 1" āfirmā Dunlop or 1" āfirmā Talalay beneath that as well. This would probably be the closest to your current feel, as youād be keeping your total of 3" of āmediumā Talalay as the uppermost layer.
As you can see, there really are quite a few combination choices. The firmer and thicker the layer on top of the innerspring unit, the more it will provide a barrier to the conformation of the spring unit and a āstrongerā transition for your upper comfort layer to that spring unit, but a firmer transition layer will also have more of an impact upon your comfort (changing the uppermost layers have the most dramatic impact).
Hi Ryan. Do you mind if I ask who the manufacturer of your blended talalay topper is and where you purchased it? Iām frankly astounded that itās only lasted four years. If itās a major brand, Iām going to have to reconsider my decision to buy a mattress with blended talalay layers.
Talalay latex in the western world will come from either Talalay Global or Radium, and it is one of the most durable foam comfort materials available. There is more about the different types and blends of latex and their relative properties and durability in this article and in post #6 here.
There are many factors involved in the durability of a mattress and the materials placed within. In this situation, we donāt have complete information about the makeup or use of the DIY mattress that was using this Talalay. I believe a completed mattress from Denver Mattress was used as the base, so the comfort layers used in that mattress will impact the durability and impressions. Youād also need to know the type of foundation used to see if that impacted durability. Also, the type of covering used over the latex will impact durability, so youād need to consider that as well. Without getting too complicated, itās also important to know that durability is relative to the person that sleeps on a mattress and no matter how durable the materials themselves may be ā¦ in practical terms a mattress will only last as long as it maintains the support, pressure relief, and personal preferences that allows someone to sleep well on a mattress. Foam softening or other changes in mattress materials or components may have different effects on different people and a mattress that has softened or changed to the degree that it no longer provides the support, pressure relief. or personal preferences for one person may still be fine for someone else. Itās usually not the final breakdown of materials that leads to the need to replace a mattress but the gradual loss of comfort and support that finally ācrossesā a line and at some point is no longer suitable for that person to sleep on. Each personās ālineā can be very different. Thereās much more information about mattresses and durability here if youāre interested, and I personally would not hesitate to recommend latex as a selection of a comfort layer within any mattress you may be considering.
Thank you for the thoughtful response, Phoenix. Definitely helped me clarify my thinking. Iām going to mull over the different 4" combinations and go that route.
Kazi, my topper was from Dreamfoam Bedding, but I donāt know which one of the manufactures they sourced from. My base mattress is a simple firm model from Denver Mattress. Personally, I donāt terribly mind replacing the topper every few years, considering that the base mattress, box springs and frame should last many years. I also like the flexibility of being able to modify the comfort layer. I am hoping by going 4" I can improve the durability this time around. We love the feel of this setup, so I think itās worth it all things considered.
I have come across some interesting info regarding Dreamfoam in all my mattress research. Apparently they use a cheaper blended latex foam thatās mostly synthetic, whereas the good stuff (from Talalay Global or Radium) is the exact opposite with a higher natural to synthetic ratio. Youāre far from alone in experiencing premature depressions in your topper, according to the hundreds of reviews Iāve pored over.
I hope your new topper configuration works much better for you this time around! Just FYI, SleepEZ has the good blended talalay (also natural talalay and dunlop) at the most reasonable price Iāve found to date.
Phoenix, thank you for the very comprehensive explanation re: topper wear. I donāt know where Dreamfoam gets their talalay, but it definitely doesnāt sound like TG or Radium unless one or both have changed their formulation recently.
Edit: Following some more research, it appears that Dreamfoam does their latex from TG. Iām thoroughly confused. Does TG make a proprietary blended latex for Dreamfoam or have they really started using a higher % of synthetic ingredients in their blended latex?
kazi, interesting info about Dreamfoam and blended talalay. I havenāt tried to get a definitive answer, but my understanding from various websites is that blended talalay is around 70% synthetic and 30% natural. Anyhow, this time around I think I am going to go with 100% natural for the top layer, probably from Radium, based on a post by Phoenix stating that Radium considers their natural to be a bit more durable than their blended (Talalay Global claiming their products to be the reverse). ĀÆ_(ć)_/ĀÆ
Thanks for the tip on SleepEZ. I am also considering mattresses.net. They stated, through email, that they source from both Talalay Global and Radium, and that I could choose which I wanted in my order.
Oh gosh. If all the blendeds are mostly synthetic, I guess Iāll be going with natural. I was looking at mattresses.net, too. They have a lot of good stuff and the prices are hard to beat, I only wish their toppers came in a variety of ILDs.
Dreamfoam does not purchase ācheaper blended latex foamā. Iām not sure where you received that information, but it certainly isnāt accurate. The difference in Talalay latex formulation was described in the links Iāve provided here in this thread in reply to your previous questions.
As someone reading through this thread might think that what you wrote above was correct, Iāll take a few minutes to describe in more detail about some of the differences in Talalay latex.
To assist you and others reading through this thread (this information can be found in much more detail in post #6 here that I linked to in post #4 in this current thread), Talalay latex in the western world comes from either Talalay Global or Radium. The Talalay can be either synthetic (100% SBR), natural (100% NR) or blended (SBR/NR ā this would be 70% SBR / 30% NR for either Talalay Global or Radium). Blended is by far the most common Talalay produced. The primary reason that 100% NR Talalay was introduced (in 2005) is to cater to the ānaturalā market who are willing to pay more for a product which has a more natural source, even though it may not be as durable in certain circumstances.
There is more detailed information about 100% natural and blended Talalay in post #2 here that is very informative.
Those who value a more natural product for personal reasons and are willing to pay for it (in price and possibly lower durability), or who can feel a difference and prefer the feel that comes from the greater elasticity and compression modulus of the natural would likely choose the 100% natural Talalay.
Those who value the increased consistency, greater choice of softness/firmness levels, or lower cost of the blend or who can feel a difference in pressure relief, would likely choose the blend.
Both are great choices and in the end the choice between them is part of each personās individual āvalue equationā. Which is best for each person depends on their preferences and their budget, because all latex is a high quality material compared to other types of foam.
There are many factors that play a role in durability of foam layers and a mattress. With toppers, these factors are especially germane, as the topper is the uppermost layer, so it undergoes the most mechanical stress. And often, people place a topper on a product that already has impression issues, incorrectly expecting the topper to fix such defects, not realizing that any topper will only conform to the surface upon which it is placed.
Thereās nothing wrong with choosing a 100% NR Talalay topper, but doing so based upon a supposition that is it a vastly superior product in terms of durability to blended Talalay would be an incorrect reason to make this decision.
You can read my reply above to kazi and it should address your questions. Blended Talalay will be 70% SBR / 30% NR. Talalay Global has posted information previously showing their blended to be more durable than their 100% NR. In the softer ILDs Radium uses a different curing process that they say negates differences in durability. Regardless, in practical terms these differences would be relatively small. Post #2 describes this in more detail.
[color=black]Quick update for anyone who was interested in this topic. And a couple of questions as wellā¦
So, I ordered a 3" 28 ILD Radium blended Talalay topper from Matresses.net to start my new topper experiment. It came today, and I cut the sealed bamboo cover off my old topper from Dreamfoam to examine the latex before disposing. To my disappointment, I discovered that they shipped me a 19 ILD instead of the āmediumā that I ordered. I can only assume that explains the, apparently unusual, deep indentations after only 3-4 years.
To make matters worse, I gave some close attention to my innerspring base for the first time and found it to be mushy in the sleep spots. Altogether my innerspring-latex hybrid gave me less than 4 years of comfortable duty and now needs a complete overhaul.
Am I missing something with this picture? Am I deluded to have expected this setup to have lasted much longer? Does it make sense that the 19 ILD directly on top of the innerspring is to blame? Would switching from an innerspring base to something else be more durable?[/color]
Iām curious as to how you determined that your old topper was 19 ILD? As for the ādeep indentationsā in your topper, this topper was placed on top of a finished innerspring mattress, and it would have no choice but to conform to the foam layers underneath the topper, and if those layers were taking a set, this would be a large contributor to the durability of your topper, regardless of ILD. I spoke to this a bit in a previous reply to kazi in this same thread. I wouldnāt be able to speak to the loss of comfort that you are experiencing with your sleep system and what parts of your sleep set contributed to this comfort change in any great detail, as all of the layers of a sleep set work together.
Again, I think youāre discounting the contribution of the foams within your mattress and these would be the weak link of your entire sleep system, and it is unlikely that the innerspring unit is the main culprit of your āmushyā sleep spots ā that is usually the result of the softening of the polyfoam within the mattress. If I had to guess the softening youāre experience is mostly due to these polyfoams.
Additionally, can you remind me what type of foundation or support structure is under your mattress? This can also impact comfort and durability.
[color=black]Phoenix, thanks, as always. Your posts always help me see things in a new way.
First off, to clarify a few thingsā¦ I discovered the 19 ILD from the tag that is glued to the topper. Secondly, when Iāve been saying āinnerspring,ā I was meaning the entire mattress, coils ,foam and all. Iāll be more specific from here on out. And when I speak of loss of comfort, what I mean is the the bed has taken on a feeling Iād say is, āhard and compacted.ā
My base mattress is a Winterpark Firm from Denver Mattress. For the Mattress base I use the āUniversal Foundation #1ā that came with the mattress at DM. The Winterpark Firm is no longer made, so it seems, but I believe it had a 1" foam comfort layer.
Okay. So what you are saying makes sense. I have been focused on the topper, but there is no reason that the mattress foam could not have started caving in first and the topper simply conformed to the mattress. The reason I have not thought much about that scenario is because the mattress has a very minimal comfort layer. Thatās why I chose it,ā¦My idea was to get a firm, minimal mattress that would outlast several rounds of toppers. One thing may be worth notingā¦The visible indentations of the topper are much deeper than the mattress indentations. I could hardly see the mattress indentations, but laying on it without the topper, I can feel a big difference between the sleep spots and the middle of mattress where no one sleeps. Itās like the sleep spots are ādead.ā
To make a long story shortā¦I am not terribly picky about my comfort layer. I like soft to medium Talalay, and I can make the comfort layer work with toppers. I really only need to decide one thing going forward: what to chose as a base this time. Iām not sure if going with another innerspring style mattress is the way to go. If I can get more life expectancy from a foam based mattress, I might go that route, depending on price. Iām fine with replacing toppers every 4 or so years, if needed, but my goal is to have the more expensive base mattress last much longer.
The Winter Park Firm had an alternating coil LFK spring unit, with 1.25" of EcoBlend fiber in the quilt and 1" of 1.8 lb polyfoam and a posture pad beneath that. It was one of the more āaffordableā Denver Mattress models.
You may wish to choose something that is a bit more substantial for your next base mattress, using less fiber in the quilt (I believe that would be where some of your āsetā would be coming from) and more polyfoam. Something using 3"-4" of a higher quality (1.8 lb or above) polyfoam could provide more comfort, helping to transition better from your topper to the innerspring unit for less of a āhard and compactedā feel. Choosing an innerspring unit or a polyfoam support core would be a personal preference and both can prove durable.
The uppermost layer of any mattress will receive the most mechanical stress, and even latex will become softer over time, with softer latex losing more support factor comparatively to firmer latex. The 28 ILD topper that you ordered should be more durable and also provide a bit more substantial surface comfort.
Phoenix, do you know of any place that sells an innerspring with several inches of polyfoam and little to no fiber, or will I need to get that custom made? I have been searching online and have not found anything advertising those specs.
Well, I think I found a place to hook me up. A place called The Mattress Factory here here in Ft. Worth, TX says they can make me a pocket coil innerspring with 2" of 2lb polyfoam for $650. They said going with 3" of foam plus my 3" latex topper would be too heavy for the springs. Considering I plan to soften up my topper by adding a 1" 19 ILD talalay layer, I may need to cut the polyfoam down to 1".
[quote]Well, I think I found a place to hook me up. A place called The Mattress Factory here here in Ft. Worth, TX says they can make me a pocket coil innerspring with 2" of 2lb polyfoam for $650. They said going with 3" of foam plus my 3" latex topper would be too heavy for the springs. Considering I plan to soften up my topper by adding a 1" 19 ILD talalay layer, I may need to cut the polyfoam down to 1".
So, Phoenix, does that seem like a legit setup? Am I missing anything important?[/quote]
As youāre probably aware, The Mattress Factory is a site member here, so I think highly of their expertise and advice that they provide, and they would be extremely knowledgeable about foam layerings and appropriate amounts with the innerspring system youāve selected, and I would trust their recommendations. You are using good quality and durable materials, and you have a āpopularā progressive configuration.
If you do decide to purchase from The Mattress Factory, donāt forget to request your Mattress Underground discount from them!
Iāll be interested to learn what you eventually decide to do.
