Input on Some Sherwood Evosleep Models

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

HI Phoenix, two models in the Evosleep line by Sherwood seem to meet my PPP. The first one, the memory foam one, would appear to be slightly better on paper. The second one felt great and is apparently very popular based on my calls with retailers, but may have a few weak links as you can see, albeit minor.

It was hard to get exact specs from my local retailer, likewise when I even spoke to a rep at Sherwood, who did not give out the specs “for proprietary reasons.” It took several calls to different retailers to get the specs from their documents.

Anyway, onto the mattresses. About me: I’m 6’1" and 160 lbs – kind of a beanpole figure. My comments are in parentheses.

Conforma Cool Perfection Luxury Firm Gel 5.0
(This choice was Phoenix-approved in post #6 here, although the specs were just slightly off, but approval was given for the accurately detailed firmer 3.5 version in post #6 here, which uses the same quality ingredients.)

-Super heavy weight lycra knit ticking with Outlast technology
-100% natural and chemical free barrier sock, wraps the entire foam core (Not sure why the term “sock” is used only on their memory foam models.)
-A layer of H.D. gel-infused cool memory foam: 1" @ 3.7 lb (Please note this is not the same as the biomedical gel used in their Biomedical Gel Rx Series)
-A thick layer of H.D. memory foam: 1.5" @ 5lb
-A layer of H.D. transitional memory foam: 1" @ 4lb (specs actually say 1" of VX13400, but this was Phoenix-indicated as 4 lb in post #6 here.)
-A thick layer of H.D. memory foam: 1.5" @ 5 lb
-A 6" foam encased soy-based H.D. foam support core: 6" @1.5 lb / 28 ILD: (not sure what they mean by foam encased foam)

Biotemp Ambiance Luxury Plush Euro Top
(I realize the two top layers of quilt foam come close to or perhaps surpass the limits of being acceptable. And while I realize there can be good latex hybrid mattresses with minority latex content, the fact that there’s just under 2" of latex in a 13.5" mattress of multiple layers of regular foam gives me pause. Still, it felt comfortable, and as I said, it’s apparently popular.)

-Heavy weight circular knit cover infused with Outlast technology for temperature management
-100% natural and chemical free fire barrier
-A layer of hyper-soft soy-based quilt foam: 7/8" @ unknown weight / unknown ILD (The Sherwood rep told me they don’t use any foam below 1.5 lb, but when I asked if that included the quilting layer, he said “no”; based on a Phoenix estimate on the Harbor Plush model described in post #6 here, it could be 1.2 lb. And while the Harbor Plush is a lesser model than the Ambiance, the other specs listed in the above post seem to indicate it would be the same quality stuff.)
-A layer of hyper-soft soy-based quilt foam: 7/8" @ unknown weight / unknown ILD (See above comment.)
-A thick layer of natural phase change celsion latex: .9" @ 21 ILD
-A thick layer of H.D. super soft soy-based comfort foam: 1.5" @ 1.5 lb / 15 ILD
-A thick layer of natural talalay latex: .9" @ 19 ILD
-A super-thick layer of H.D. soy based support foam: 1.75" @ 1.5 lb / 23 ILD
-A super-thick layer of H.D. soy-based support foam: 1.75" @ 1.5 lb / 23 ILD
-A 3.5" layer of super H.D. soy-based upholstery grade convoluted foam: 3.5" @ 1.8 lb / 32 ILD
-A layer of H.D. firm soy-based support foam: 7/8" @ 1.45 lb / 40 ILD (The 1.45 lb spec seems weird being taken out to the hundredths place, especially given the Sherwood rep’s comments about not using below 1.5 lb. Same thing about some thicknesses being listed as 7/8" and .9". Apparently .9" qualifies as “thick” but 7/8" does not in Sherwood’s books. Even the 1" layers in the Conforma Cool above are not described as “thick.”)

Thanks for your time and attention!

2

Hi The Toddler,

In many cases … a rep for a company or the company itself will provide the specs of a mattress to a retailer even though the same company may not provide the specs to a consumer so a retailer really has the best chance of finding out the specs of a mattress … not to mention that finding out this type of information is part of their job. One of my “tests” of a good retailer is their willingness to track down the information that their customers need to make an informed choice … even if the customer is more informed about the importance of this information than they are.

[quote]Conforma Cool Perfection Luxury Firm Gel 5.0
(This choice was Phoenix-approved in post #6 here, although the specs were just slightly off, but approval was given for the accurately detailed firmer 3.5 version in post #6 here, which uses the same quality ingredients.)

-Super heavy weight lycra knit ticking with Outlast technology
-100% natural and chemical free barrier sock, wraps the entire foam core (Not sure why the term “sock” is used only on their memory foam models.)
-A layer of H.D. gel-infused cool memory foam: 1" @ 3.7 lb (Please note this is not the same as the biomedical gel used in their Biomedical Gel Rx Series)
-A thick layer of H.D. memory foam: 1.5" @ 5lb
-A layer of H.D. transitional memory foam: 1" @ 4lb (specs actually say 1" of VX13400, but this was Phoenix-indicated as 4 lb in post #6 here.)
-A thick layer of H.D. memory foam: 1.5" @ 5 lb
-A 6" foam encased soy-based H.D. foam support core: 6" @1.5 lb / 28 ILD: (not sure what they mean by foam encased foam)[/quote]

I don’t see any weak links in this mattress. The 3.7 lb memory foam is “close enough” to 4 lbs and is only an inch thick so this wouldn’t be an issue either way.

The rest of the foam densities in the comfort layers are fine and even though the base layer is 1.5 lb polyfoam … there is 5" of foam above it so the slightly lower density shouldn’t be a durability issue for people that are in more average weight ranges. For those that are in higher than average weight ranges (in the mid 200’s or higher) the 2" of 4 lb memory foam in addition to the 1.5 lb base layer could be a weak link in the mattress.

[quote]Biotemp Ambiance Luxury Plush Euro Top
(I realize the two top layers of quilt foam come close to or perhaps surpass the limits of being acceptable. And while I realize there can be good latex hybrid mattresses with minority latex content, the fact that there’s just under 2" of latex in a 13.5" mattress of multiple layers of regular foam gives me pause. Still, it felt comfortable, and as I said, it’s apparently popular.)

-Heavy weight circular knit cover infused with Outlast technology for temperature management
-100% natural and chemical free fire barrier
-A layer of hyper-soft soy-based quilt foam: 7/8" @ unknown weight / unknown ILD (The Sherwood rep told me they don’t use any foam below 1.5 lb, but when I asked if that included the quilting layer, he said “no”; based on a Phoenix estimate on the Harbor Plush model described in post #6 here, it could be 1.2 lb. And while the Harbor Plush is a lesser model than the Ambiance, the other specs listed in the above post seem to indicate it would be the same quality stuff.)
-A layer of hyper-soft soy-based quilt foam: 7/8" @ unknown weight / unknown ILD (See above comment.)
-A thick layer of natural phase change celsion latex: .9" @ 21 ILD
-A thick layer of H.D. super soft soy-based comfort foam: 1.5" @ 1.5 lb / 15 ILD
-A thick layer of natural talalay latex: .9" @ 19 ILD
-A super-thick layer of H.D. soy based support foam: 1.75" @ 1.5 lb / 23 ILD
-A super-thick layer of H.D. soy-based support foam: 1.75" @ 1.5 lb / 23 ILD
-A 3.5" layer of super H.D. soy-based upholstery grade convoluted foam: 3.5" @ 1.8 lb / 32 ILD
-A layer of H.D. firm soy-based support foam: 7/8" @ 1.45 lb / 40 ILD (The 1.45 lb spec seems weird being taken out to the hundredths place, especially given the Sherwood rep’s comments about not using below 1.5 lb. Same thing about some thicknesses being listed as 7/8" and .9". Apparently .9" qualifies as “thick” but 7/8" does not in Sherwood’s books. Even the 1" layers in the Conforma Cool above are not described as “thick.”)[/quote]

I would be very cautious about this mattress as it definitely has what I would consider to be some weak links.

If only the 1.75" of quilting foam was below the guidelines it would still be less than 2" and even though it is a little thicker than I would normally like to see … quilting foam will be a bit more durable than an unquilted layer and its at least “not too bad”.

Unfortunately this is not the only question mark in this mattress.

If you look at the next 7" or so of the mattress … 1.8" is good quality material (the latex) and the rest of it is 1.5 lb polyfoam. Even if you look at only the top 6" or so of the mattress … over 4" of it are below the guidelines I would suggest for a one sided mattress (see post #4 here). This means that the lower quality materials are considerably more than I would be comfortable with (even though it’s probably better than many mainstream mattresses made by some larger manufacturers).

I would tend to avoid this one unless it is in a budget range where there are no better quality options available to you and the durability of the mattress is not as important an issue and there is a compelling reason to buy it that offsets its weaknesses.

Phoenix

3

Hi Phoenix,

Thanks for the advice. I pulled the trigger on the Conforma Cool memory foam mattress. Do you have any articles or links to forum posts about the break-in period for memory foam?

This is my first time on memory foam, and I was using my last spring mattress for 12 years, so this is a big change for me and has taken some getting used to.

I experienced some heat issues the first few nights, but I swapped out my semi-breathable membrane protector and polyester blend sheets for a St. Dormeir and the LL Bean 100% pima percale cotton sheets, and that seems to have licked that problem. And I had some tossing and turning at first, too, since it’s not as easy to turn over as it is on a spring mattress, but I think I’ve gotten used to that as well.

However, waking up with some back stiffness is still something I’m concerned about. I’m at the two week period and it’s gotten a little better, so I wonder if I still need to give it more time. But the warranty instructions say to rotate the mattress at two weeks, meaning I’d be back to square one, and I only have a 30-day exchange window.

So basically I’m wondering what to expect with the break in of a memory foam mattress. Is the mattress getting used to me as much as I’m getting used to it? And should I hold off on rotating, or is there something I should do to accelerate the break-in? I see some places recommending walking or crawling on the mattress to open the cells.

Thanks!

4

Hi The Toddler,

I think that post #2 here is what you’re looking for :).

I would still rotate the mattress so that the mattress will break in more evenly (and you won’t be assessing the suitability of a mattress that has broken in unevenly which may be misleading) and you should still be able to get a good sense of whether things are working out for you by the end of the 30 days.

Phoenix

5

I’m going on 8 months with the Comforma Cool 5.0 and am sleeping comfortably. The St. Dormeir mattress protector and the L.L. Bean sheets also are a winning combination – I haven’t had any temperature issues since I’ve been using them. (And I should also reiterate my plug for the Knickerbocker Embrace bed frame, which I did in another thread.) This forum really helped me put together the best of the best.

So thank you, Phoenix. I just thought I’d ask for your comment on one final aspect. I indicated above that after a few weeks I was still having back stiffness. That subsided over a long period of time, maybe between 60 and 90 days. But I wake up with no discomfort now. Is there any concern that the adjustment period took that long, or is that just how it is with some people? I should probably admit that I’m generally averse to change.

6

Hi The Toddler,

Thanks for taking the time to share your comments and a longer term update … I appreciate it :).

No … there is nothing in a longer adjustment period that would concern me. While for most people it is shorter … for some people it is much longer (up to 90 days and in some rare cases even longer than that) depending on the person themselves, on their 'learned alignment" and “muscle memory” from sleeping on their old mattress, and on the differences between their new mattress and the one they were used to sleeping on before.

Phoenix

7

Hi The Toddler,

I was wondering how the mattress is working out for you after a year and a half? Would you recommend it for a side sleeper? May I also ask how much it was priced at when you got it? It’s currently listed at about $1650 for just the mattress.

I am thinking about purchasing the 5.0 also and the store guy said that it probably won’t go on sale any time soon and actually goes up in price during peak buying periods… Phoenix, is there any truth to this and/or is he just trying to get me to buy asap?

Thank you in advance for your time.

8

Hi DonJuanFromNom,

Hopefully The Toddler will see your post and share their comments and feedback but I would be very cautious about using other people’s experiences or reviews on a mattress (either positive or negative) or review sites in general as a reliable source of information or guidance about how you will feel on the same mattress or how suitable or how durable a mattress may be for you and in many if not most cases they can be more misleading than helpful because a mattress that would be a perfect choice for one person or even a larger group of people may be completely unsuitable for someone else to sleep on (even if they are in a similar weight range or have a similar sleeping style) and reviews in general certainly won’t tell you much if anything about the suitability, quality, durability, or “value” of a mattress for any particular person (see post #13 here).

I don’t know if it ever goes on sale but the idea that they raise the price during peak buying periods sounds somewhat ridiculous to me and it more than likely just a tactic to create a “sense of urgency” and get you to buy the mattress before they “lose” you to another store.

Unfortunately there isn’t a “formula” that can be used to assess or “calculate” the value of a mattress because there are so many different variables and criteria involved that can affect the price of a mattress that can each be more or less important to some people and not to others who may have completely different criteria or definitions of “value” but the “value” of a mattress purchase is always relative to how a mattress compares to the other finalists you are considering or to other mattresses that are available to you in your area (or online if you are also considering online options) based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you. If you are only seriously considering one mattress at one store then it would be difficult to assess the “value” of the mattress because you wouldn’t have anything to compare it to.

There is also more information about the 3 most important parts of “value” of a mattress purchase in post #13 here which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on suitability, durability, and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase if your choice doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for).

Phoenix

9

I just saw this post. If anyone else has similar questions, feel free to send a PM.

I have had some of my best nights’ sleep ever on this mattress, but many times it has frustrated me. (Although not all of it is the fault of the mattress.)

I just don’t think I’m a memory foam guy. I sleep hot so I probably shouldn’t be on an all-foam memory foam/polyfoam mattress. I have to keep the thermostat at 68 or below just to get a decent night’s sleep (even with cotton/wool bedding). And due to other sleeping issues, I change positions a lot, so a slow-response material isn’t always the best for me.

Phoenix, I was hoping you could comment on an issue as I consider whether I should replace my mattress. This is considered a medium firmness, but it’s softer than anything I’ve previously slept on. My lower back has never felt better. But as I said above, I started out having some other soreness/stiffness that gradually went away — although sometimes it returns. It’s right in the middle of my upper back, directly behind where my heart is, about an inch or two to the left and right of my spine. I’m largely a side sleeper with occasional back sleeping.

So what is my problem? Shoulders, lower back, and hips are great, but middle upper spine area not so great. I’d guess I need something firmer, but maybe that’s not what the conventional wisdom would indicate. And I’d be worried about sacrificing upper back quality for lower back quality.

10

Hi The Toddler,

Mattress plushness terms of course are relative descriptors, so of course your own personal thoughts are the most accurate guidance. It seems that your alignment is good (low back feels good) and that your upper back issues gradually reduced as time went on, which could be a sign of you losing some of your “learned alignment” for your old mattress, your new mattress adjusting to you, or just you overall adjusting to your new mattress.

Unfortunately, it’s not possible to “diagnose” mattress comfort issues on a forum with any certainty because they can be very complex and there are too many unique unknowns, variables, and complexities involved that can affect how each person sleeps on a mattress in terms of “comfort”, firmness, and PPP or any “symptoms” they experience. However, there is more about the most common symptoms that people may experience when they sleep on a mattress and the most likely (although not the only) reasons for them in post #2 here, specifically:

[i]Mid and upper back issues can also come from several sources. In the case of the upper body then good horizontal alignment is important but lateral (side to side) alignment is also important. For example if you bend your head and neck forward towards your stomach and bend the upper body forward into a forward hunched position then it can bend the upper spine and create tension and pain in the mid and upper back. This can happen during the night if your pillow is too high for example and pushes your head forward when you sleep on your back. It can also happen if the upper layers are too thick and soft.

In the same way … if you push your arms and shoulders forward into a forward slouched position then it can also create tension and soreness in your mid or upper back. This can come from a mattress that has comfort layers that are too thick and/or soft and allows your torso to sink in a little too far but “holds up” the lighter shoulders (pushing them forward).

In both cases your muscles will be tense and working throughout the night to maintain alignment.

Upper back issues can also point to a pillow that is either too high or too low for your body type or sleeping position and doesn’t maintain the gap between your head and the mattress and keep your head and neck if good alignment over the course of the night which can affect the upper back as well.[/i]

There is also new research coming out showing an increase in upper back issues due to rounding from people working on keyboard and tablets and texting, resulting is poor posture and flexibility issues. With your issues being very specific to one small area and coming and going, my thoughts run to the possibility of something environmental and not necessarily mattress related.

The first place I would start is assessing your pillow, making sure that it is a proper thickness to help maintain a more neutral alignment. As you sleep upon your side, you may also wish to consider a pillow placed behind you to lean slightly against while sleeping, and a pillow placed in front of you which you may use to support your free arm while sleeping on your side. Both of these things can help with some upper back issues.

There is some great information in this PHD thesis by Vincent+Verhaer (who is one of a group of researchers that I greatly respect) about the importance of good spinal alignment that clearly indicates that for healthy individuals it has the single biggest effect on the depth and quality of sleep, versus surface plushness. Of course, the ideal is to have both comfort and alignment. Good alignment doesn’t mean that a mattress necessarily needs a very hard surface comfort, and it seems that right now you have something that offers this good alignment, so I would be hesitant of changing your deep support characteristics.

Good spinal alignment is the most important factor that leads to deep and restful sleep and is important for all people whether or not they have back pain but making sure that a mattress is firm enough to prevent the heavier parts of the body from sinking down too far so you can maintain good spinal alignment over the course of the night in all your sleeping positions is especially important for those with back issues because the risks involved and the pain and discomfort that can come from a mattress that is too soft can be higher than for those that are more flexible and don’t have any back issues. I would also keep in mind that a mattress that is too firm (for you) can also lead to poor support and back pain. In the end, the only way to know for certain whether any specific mattress will be a “good enough” match for you in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP will be based on your own careful testing and/or your own personal experience when you sleep on it.

The information in the post I linked to earlier, as well as a few of the suggestions I’ve mentioned here, are the “tools” that can help with the analysis, detective work, or trial and error that may be necessary to help you learn your body’s language and “translate” what your body is trying to tell you so you can identify the types of changes that have the best chance of reducing or eliminating any “symptoms” you are experiencing (at least to the degree that any symptoms are from your mattress rather than the result of any other circumstances or pre-existing issues you may have that aren’t connected to a mattress).

Phoenix

11

Thanks for all those details. You’ve given me a lot to think about. I’ll experiment more with pillows and be more mindful of hunching. I do tend toward a more fetal position in bed, although I try to be conscious about stretching out. I’m just tired of the inconsistency with this mattress and the heat issues. I actually had a good night’s sleep last night because the temperature dropped to 66 and the humidity to 38. (I guess my higher AC bill in the summer is offset by a lower heating bill in the winter, if that’s a consolation.)

One thing I didn’t mention is that I sleep on other mattresses maybe 20 percent of the time and this one is the only one that gives me this particular pain. There are 5 inches of memory foam in this thing. Based on what I’ve read here, maybe that’s a little too thick a comfort layer for a side sleeper? I feel that it may not be a coincidence that my area of discomfort is right at the warmest part of my body – that this one area is sinking in a little too far (or even bottoming out?) as a result of the memory foam getting too warm.

And lastly, would there be any harm to the comfort layer if I flipped the mattress over to try the bottom side? It’s 1.5 lb, 28 ILD polyfoam. It seems like that ILD is around what some mattress companies advertise as medium-firm, although it’s usually regarding latex.

12

Hi The Toddler,

That sounds like a good start.

Temperature and humidity control are both important parts of maintaining an environment that is conducive to good sleep. There’s more information about the variables that can affect the sleeping temperature of a mattress or sleeping system in post #2 here.

It is certainly possible that for you this product allows you to sink in too deeply in the uppermost layers, and this would be one of the more common causes of the pain you’re experiencing. Five inches of memory foam can be a bit too much for some individuals.

There are small variations in the surface temperature of the human body (extremities tending to be the coolest, the chest/shoulder/armpit areas tending to be the warmest). I don’t know that it is necessarily that this warmest area is causing you to sink in more, but probably more a combination of the differences in dimensions with the shoulders being wider and sinking in a bit more, this creating more of an insulating effect in this area, which leads to less air circulation and a bit of a warmer temperature, which in turn activates and lowers the viscous nature of the memory foam, which in turn allows you to sink in a bit more until things equalize. While you wouldn’t necessarily be “bottoming out” (all of the layers of a mattress work in unison), you are probably coming close to reaching the densification region of some of the memory foam where it doesn’t flex much as more weight is applied.

There would be no harm in flipping the mattress over, and it may be useful in determining if a bit of a firmer surface layering meets with your needs. This would also be a good experiment to try out.

Phoenix