Is there a magic brand that exists for chronic pain?

Hi santamonicagal,

You’re very welcome, and no worries!

Unfortunately this is very common in the mattress industry. While there are certain specifications that I would consider to be legitimately “proprietary” and more comfort specs (ILD, for example), foam density would be one thing that a consumer would need in order to evaluate the durability/quality of componentry of polyfoam or memory foam within a mattress.

I would take them at their word, unless you had a specific reason to doubt them. It very well could be a cancelled order. The only thing that we can conclude about this mattress is that it uses a pocketed innerspring unit (which is rarely the weak link within a mattress), it uses a layer of blended latex from Talalay Global (but we don’t know the thickness of that layer - but it would be a good quality material), and that it is tufted, which can be good for helping to increase durability.

While the price may be reduced compared to their usual selling price, I’d still advise caution when you’re purchasing something without knowing the makeup of the materials within the mattress.

Yes, Nest Bedding it a site member here, which means that I think highly of them. Like many (primarily) online companies, they do offer good options for returns/exchanges. And while I know there are many reviews online for these various brands, I’ll recommend that you focus primarily upon the componentry within the mattress (using the links I provided in my previous reply), as that will give you a better chance at choosing something that can provide you a durable comfort life (combined with a detailed phone conversation with any manufacturer you’re considering to assist you in selecting an appropriate product), more than someone else’s review that would have very little meaningful relevance as to what may or may not be appropriate for you personally. Were you considering the Alexander Signature Hybrid (the one with the springs in it) or the Alexander Signature Series (the one that uses a polyfoam core)?

Phoenix

Those two models were my favorite after sampling them all, but lean towards the signature for its slightly more firmer, solid feel. Still need to get my husband in there to see them. Even though we don’t care for a memory foam feel (such as our current cloud supreme Temurpedic) I feel the polyfoam on the signature model offers more ease of movement and firmness.

Are there retailers in Santa Monica or Los Angeles that make your list or is it brand specific? I think a latex-individual coil hybrid might be a great fit (which I believe is the Aireloom) but am not sure what others to compare. I’m gonna give your list another look.

By the way, the salesperson answered 3lb density when trying to answer my question re density on the Aireloom but I was so confused with all the jibber jabber, I have no idea if that answer had any merit.

Thanks Phoenix.

Hi santamonicalgal,

I’m happy that you were able to go test out some of those Nest mattresses in person. Be sure to drag your husband in there!

I have discontinued the provision of listings of potential retailers in various geographic regions (unless they are already approved site members), because of the difficulty in maintaining such lists in a retail landscape that is constantly changing, and most importantly the confusion it was creating with the consumer members who incorrectly assumed that these businesses had indeed gone through the strict vetting and qualification process that is part of becoming an approved member of The Mattress Underground. Such an assumption is unfair to both the consumers seeking assistance, as well as the very businesses and manufacturers who have indeed qualified the be members here of The Mattress Underground.

You can perform a forum search on Los Angeles or Santa Monica and see what other businesses have been discussed in that region which may be helpful to you. There are quite a few retailers in your area.

Whatever business you’re considering, remember to always confirm that any retailer or manufacturer that you wish to visit is completely transparent (see this article) and also make sure that any mattress that you are considering meets the quality/value guidelines here.

If you have any questions about specifications or certain products you discover, feel free to post back on the forum and I’ll do my best to be assistive.

The mattress has a layer of memory foam in it, maybe that’s what they were referencing (which would be a lower quality memory foam than what I would recommend), but without specifics we can’t be sure so I don’t want to assume.

Phoenix

Well, decision made!!! I’ve ordered us a mattress today! And surprisingly, I took an entirely different direction at Nest. Sunday night I got my husband in to sample a few. I had him try my favorite three: Alexander hybrid, Alexander Signature, and Latex Hybrid. He liked the Alexander Signature in firm like I did. Except…while sampling them again, I changed my mind on my favorite and ended up preferring the Latex Hybrid. Q3 too soft for us. Alex hybrid, too springy.

The Latex Hybrid seemed to me, the perfect combination of wool/cotton, Dunlop Latex, individual pocketed coils, and bottom foam. At first I found it too soft and liked the firm signature model, but ultimately decided Signature firm may be a hair TOO firm and decided the Latex may give us the sweet spot and trifecta of comfort, support, and better durability in the end.

The beauty is that we can try it without risk. The Aireloom was nice but I didn’t want to get stuck with one retailer should we end up not liking it. And when I went back yesterday to give the Aireloom a final try, I repeated my questions which the salesperson still couldn’t answer. It didn’t leave me with much confidence.

I’m relieved we made a decision and look frwd to our new Nest next week!

Best-j

Hi santamonicagal,

Congratulations on your new mattress purchase! :cheer: I’m happy that you and your husband were able to find a combination that you both liked in the Next Hybrid Latex. It certainly uses good quality materials, and you of course have the ability to change the upper comfort layer with this design.

It’s interesting to note that many people in the industry with whom I have contact, and can sleep on anything they desire, prefer the feel of latex on top of pocketed springs.

Yes, that would give me pause as well.

I hope you’ll be able to provide feedback on how your mattress is performing for you once you’ve received it and have had a chance to adjust to it and sleep upon it for a while.

Phoenix

Thank you, Phoenix, will do.

Btw, I found that tidbit very interesting and satisfying – regarding your comment on those in the industry who can sleep on anything preferring coil/Latex combo, made my day. If that isn’t the best testimony and peace of mind for my choice, I don’t know what is!

Appreciate your guidance very much.

Janel

Hi sanatamonicagal,

You’re welcome!

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

I need some advice please, as it’s been six weeks into my Nest trial. 12/1 we bought the ultra firm Latex Hybrid. There’s some great qualities about this bed I like but after some time, I’ve come to the conclusion it’s a bit too firm for me.

So, here’s my question: is it best to add topper to a very firm mattress OR go for the medium version?

If people buy very firm mattresses only to mask them with toppers, then why not buy the cheapest firm mattress and then add a topper? Or does having the firmer of the two provide better support and therefore it’s best to add a topper? I’ll assume the topper is memory foam so then by adding foam, I’d be getting away from the Latex feel…I’m confused as to what to do.

I know with an extra firm mattress, one can always soften it as opposed to starting out with a softer feel. I have until March to figure this out and keep what we keep so I need to make an adjustment now in order to test it till now…please advise.

Thank you!

Hi santamonicagal.

I am sorry that your choice did not work as well as you have hoped for, but the good news is that you do have some good options to find find the right comfort/support combination for you and your husband.

I would agree with you that although commonly used to fix a mattress it is good to avoid adding to your firmer mattress a separate topper afterwards unless there is no other reasonable alternative or unless you have a chance to do some careful and objective testing for PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) on the specific combination in person using the testing guidelines in the mattress shopping tutorial . Deciding on a topper that would be a good match for both you and the mattress (the specifics of the mattress can make a significant difference in which topper would work best for you) can be almost as challenging as buying a new mattress in the first place.

It’s also important to know that any topper (or top layer) will interact with all the other layers in the mattress you have and the same topper can feel quite different on different mattresses. Your own body type, sleeping style, preferences, and sensitivities to different foam properties will also change what one person feels on a material compared to someone else. I would recommend that before you decide to go one way or another you revisit Nest showroom and test the medium version of the Next Latex hybrid and discuss your options. They are extremely Knowlegeable and offer great customer support and after purchase options.

Having said all that … if your mattress is still too firm and going with the medium version of Nest hybrid would not meet your support requirements for proper alignment and you only need some extra pressure relief then a topper can be a good choice to improve your existing system and the topper guidelines in post #8 here and the posts it links to. A good quality topper can certainly be an effective way to add some additional softness, “comfort” and pressure relief to your sleeping system but the only way to know for certain whether a specific mattress/topper combination is a good “match” for both of you in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP is based on your own careful testing or personal experience on the combination. If you can’t test the combination in person then there will always be always some risk and uncertainty involved in adding a topper because the specifics of the mattress itself along with your own body type, sleeping position, and preferences can affect which specific topper would be a suitable choice on any specific mattress.

There is more information about choosing a topper and a link to the better online sources I’m aware of in post #2 here which along with a conversation with a reliable and knowledgeable supplier (that can provide you with good information about how their toppers compare to each other or to other toppers they are familiar with that are available on the market) can help you use your sleeping experience as a reference point and guideline to help you choose the type, thickness, and firmness for a topper that has the least possible risk and the best chance for success. A good exchange/return policy can also reduce the risk of an online topper purchase so I would make sure you are comfortable with the options you have available after a purchase just in case the topper you choose doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for.

Nest also has a good 1.8 lb Polyurethane topper that is designed to work in combination with their systems in case extra plushness is needed. (it is not latex as you would like but it is a good quality topper that is worth checking) I suggest that you call Nest and have detailed conversation with them about your options. (before engaging in purchasing a topper as a way to fix your mattress)

This assumption is incorrect as there as toppers can be latex as well as other types of materryals (poly, micorcoil, memory foam, wool….) As you like the feeling of latex then I would trust the feeling that your are familiar with and look for a latex topper option.
Keeping in mind that most of the toppers being offered are coming in 2"- 4" thickness, here are some of our trusted members who offer latex toppers that could fit your criteria.

Sleep EZ has 2" or 3" NR Talalay & Dunlop toppers
Arizona Premium 2" or 3" Talalay & Dunlop toppers
Flexus Comfort has 2 and 3" toppers
Foam Sweet Foam Has 3" toppers both Talalay and Dunlop
Latex Mattress Factory 2" or 3" toppers
Luma Sleep has 2" topper and 3" Talalay comfort layer (3 firmness options)
My Green Mattress Dunlop topper
Sedona Sleep a 3" Talalay blended Latex topper with zippered bamboo cover http://sedonasleep.com/talalay-latex-mattress-topper/
Sleep on Latex Dunlop topers
Sleeping Organic 2" – 3" 100% NR Latex (Talalay or Dunlop)+ a Wool quilted Mattress Topper

I hope this gives you enough information to help you weigh your options and perhaps return here to let us know.

Phoenix

Thanks for your prompt reply, Phoenix. I spoke to the sales rep at the SM location at Nest last night and I don’t need know if you’re aware of this or not, but they’ve recently redesigned their Latex Hybrids using Talayay and have moved away from using Dunlop which is what my current mattress has. She said that the Talalay has given the mattresses a softer feel overall.

I’m going in today to test them out but here’s the thing, is Dunlop superior material than Talalay? If so, maybe I want to stick to what I have? I asked about the complimentary topper they told me they offered at the time I bought the mattress last month and she said “as of today, that’s no longer being offered…”. When I reminded her that I was told that would’ve been an option at the time of purchase she said she’ll double check because maybe that’ll still be valid since I’m within my trial period and only applicable for new customers.

Still, I don’t like the rules being changed halfway through the game…so hopefully I’ll have options once I visit later today.

I’m afraid the Talalay might have been a cost decision and if so, I’d rather stick with the superior material. But I will research the difference which could very well be that Dunlop is just slightly stiffer in feel.

I will post again with further development. Thank you again for your help and feedback. From your answer as to whether a topper is best of switching out the model, it sounds like as long as the medium still offers adequate support, that it’s best to get the overall mattered right as opposed to sticking a “fix it” on top. From what the sales rep says, both medium and firm provide the same support, it’s just a difference of feel.

Best,
Janel

Hi santamonicagal .

You are welcome! :slight_smile:

Nest is using both Talalay and Dunlop in their hybrid systems, and use them interchangeably to accommodate different customer needs and preferences. You can see Nest’s reply regarding the “change” in materials in Post #2 here

[quote] I’m going in today to test them out but here’s the thing, is Dunlop superior material than Talalay? If so, maybe I want to stick to what I have? … I’m afraid the Talalay might have been a cost decision and if so, I’d rather stick with the superior material. But I will research the difference which could very well be that Dunlop is just slightly stiffer in feel.
[/quote]

Nest is putting a great deal of time and effort into carrying mattresses that are good quality and value. I have also talked with Joe the owner on many occasions and he is passionate about what he is doing. In the past they left a larger manufacturer that had a somewhat exaggerated focus on “green” mattresses to form his own company because he wanted to “do it right”

While there are many websites that maybe trying to portray Dunlop as being more durable than Talalay or the other way around … I treat them as equivalents and as a preference choice rather than a better/worse choice in terms of durability and in a suitable design and firmness level both have a very long history that shows that in some cases they can last for decades (see the video here for an example)

The most “popular” choices in terms of a combination of foam characteristics that most people seem to prefer in terms of performance and price (value) is Talalay in the comfort layers and either NR Dunlop or Talalay in the support layers although any type of latex can be used in any layer and some people have much different preferences than others so I would make sure you have tested both to see which one you prefer. Your own experience and preferences are always the most important factor in choosing between them. In some cases (depending on the many factors that play a role in durability ) latex mattresses with firmer layers can last over 20 years.

Just to clarify a few things regarding latex (rubber) … there are two different types of raw materials that are used to make latex foam. Each of these materials can be used to make a foam using two different foaming processes. The two different methods used to make the foam are the Dunlop process (the original method) and the Talalay process (a newer more high tech method although it has been used for decades).

Dunlop process
The Dunlop process has two main variations and one is made in a mould and the other is made with a continuous pour method on a moving belt.Post #3 here has some videos of the different production processes.

The Dunlop method is simpler and results in a denser foam. Dunlop made in a mold is more difficult to make as soft as the Talalay process. It is also less complex and less costly to make than talalay. While it can be good quality in either a blend or all natural version … it is often preferred in an all-natural version because the greater elasticity can somewhat make up for the fact that it is more difficult to make as soft as Talalay and because the lower cost of production can make up for the higher cost of using more NR latex as a raw material. (It is poured in a mold or on a “belt” and then heated and cured to make the foam. It is most popular in a support layer however there are those who also prefer it in the comfort layers.)

Talalay process
The Talalay method is more complex and results in a less dense foam. It can be made softer and more consistent than Dunlop because of the production method that uses less latex by expanding the latex in a mold using a vacuum and then freezes it so the latex particles don’t have time to settle before it is heated and cured. It is because of the lower density and the method that it can be made more consistent and softer. In spite of having less latex in the foamed core because of the Talalay production method … it has a stronger cell structure with thicker struts so this can make up for the lower amount of latex in the material in terms of durability. Blended Talalay is most often used because it can create a more durable foam … especially in the softer versions or ILD’s. Talalay that uses 100% natural rubber is also available and is more elastic than a blend but may not be as durable as the blend in softer versions (lower ILD’s). There is more about 100% natural and blended Talalay in post #2 here . It is also more difficult to work with to make a consistent firmness so the natural Talalay can be made softer than most Dunlop (except continuous pour Dunlop) but not as soft as blended Talalay. The two different versions of Talalay are very similar in feel and are lighter and more “lively” than Dunlop.

Talalay and Dunlop have often been compared to angel food cake vs pound cake. There is a little more about the differences in “feel” between Dunlop and Talalay in post #7 here.

All of these production methods (Dunlop, Talalay and variations) make a very high quality foam that is more durable than any other types of foam materials (such as memory foam or polyfoam) and also have unique characteristics in terms of their ability to relieve pressure and provide support (get firmer with increased compression). The ability of softer latex to relieve pressure as well as memory foam and also to “hold up” the heavier parts of the body better than any other foam is part of the reason why so many people consider latex to be such a desirable material in a mattress.

Better manufacturers or retailers like Nest bedding are very helpful and I would guess that this change was done to improve the design rather than cost considerations If there is any confusion about they do a great job in providing accurate information and any clarifications. Talalay latex mostly comes from two different companies. One of these is Latex International (which is now called Talalay Global) which is US based and the other is Radium which is based in Europe. Both make very high quality Talalay products. There are many manufacturers of good quality Dunlop around the world.

To recap … Dunlop it is not “superior” or inferior to Talalay and any choice between them is rather a preference choice or what is best for each person, their own personal preferences and cost variations because all latex is a high quality material compared to other types of foam.

Hope this removes your concern and I’ll be interested to learn of your eventual decisions.

Phoenix

You’re the best…thank you! After two months of boot camp training leading material details and mattress quality, I’m now ready for an industry job! :slight_smile:

One question:

36 ILD Talalay vs 36 Dunlop is going to be slightly softer in feel. (Read post #7, very helpful as was your pound cake analogy).

I’m going to exchange my 36 ILD for a firm Talalay. The 28 ILD medium does not offer my spine adequate support. I’m a little nervous that the 36 ILD Talalay might be replacing too similar of a firmness, though it’s very hard for me to tell in the store.

Here’s my question: do you think it would be wise to order the firm Talalay but at a slightly lower ILD to ensure I’m not exchanging an apple for an apple? If so, what’s your recommendation on number? If I split the difference between 28-36, it’s 32. I was thinking 34 may be good…but how many numbers difference is a difference in feel? Is there a slight difference between 36 and 34 or not enough to matter? Again, 28 is too soft and thinking 32-34 may be the right adjustment.

I quote you here but am not sure if this answered my question:

A “one step” difference in ILD which would be about 4 - 5 ILD would be “in the range” for most people where they felt similar.

Thanks Phoenix!! Appreciate this last bit of ILD direction before I exchange.

Hi santamonicagal .

You are welcome! I am glad to be of assistance. :slight_smile:

This is correct!

I am not quite clear what you are looking to exchange… the 36 ILD but I don’t understand where the 28 ILD is coming in and it is also not clear …what you have and what you looking to change. (Dunlop… Talalay?)

At this point I am not very sure the exact configuration that you have right now and I would appreciate if you would restate it more accurately so that I can better assist you.

Phoenix

I currently have the firmest of the firm…I have a 36 ILD Dunlop latex from the Hybrid line at Nest. 36 ILD is the number for their firm. 28 is the ILD number for their “Medium” in the same bed. But according to the rep, when she took a photo, the 28 ILD doesn’t offer me the best support.

If I switch out my 36 ILD Dunlop for a 36 ILD Talalay, it will be slightly softer feel…ok, great!

But, I have an opportunity to “customize” my next order of their firm and instead of ordering it at a 36 ILD, I could dial it down a bit. If 28 is too soft (in Talalay) and 36 (in Dunlop) is too firm, should I go for say, 34 ILD? I’m just afraid if I stay with 36 ild even though it’s Talalay, I’d be switching one apple for another apple.

So, I was thinking since they’ll let me choose my ILD on the firm, maybe to decrease it a hair. If I split it between 29 and 36, it’s 32…but maybe 34 would be a good compromise.

I guess my question is what is the degree of difference in feel between each ILD number?? Can a human feel a difference between 36 and 34 or would it have to go down at least to a 32 to feel any difference? I do think it’s a slightly softer as a 36 compared to my 36 Dunlop at home, but to what degree is very hard to tell when I don’t have them next to each other at the store.

I definitely feel the 36 Dunlop is so firm, it feels “tight as a drum” with no cush whatsoever. Perhaps the 36 Talalay will give me a little more “give” but since I had the option to customize, I’m considering ordering the Talalay somewhere 32-34.

There’s an ILD firmness chart that reads 33 is the start of firm… I just want to know how much difference in feel between each number if it’s at all even possible to describe.

Thank you!

Hi santamonicagal .

Both 36 ILD Dunlop or 36 ILD Talalay will be firm. The 36 ILD Talalay would probably feel “a bit” softer in comparison, but it’s still what most people would call firm. Talalay in the same ILD as Dunlop will be less dense (will weigh less than Dunlop per cubic foot of material) because it has more air in it. This is the basis for the angel food cake vs the pound cake analogy.

If the Talalay is from Talalay Global, the next step down would be a 32 ILD, and that would be your more logical choice if the 28 and it wasn’t supportive enough.

Remember that ILDs are not exact numbers but ranges, and small difference in ILD are not generally perceptible. Nobody else can feel what you feel on a mattress and the best I can do is to provide some guidance between different options and how they might relate to each other but only you can decide which of them you are most likely to prefer and which one would feel just right for you.

Phoenix

Perfect, thank you.

I spoke with Global and interestingly enough, they don’t even offer the 34 ILD, only 36, 32, 28…

I’ll try the 32 since that’s the next step down and seems like a good “middle” compromise between 28 and 36. Global tells me that 32 is still in the firm range, too.

So appreciate all your tremendous help in navigating this.

All the best!

Hi santamonicagal .

You are welcome :slight_smile:

Yes you are correct TG blended Talalay comes in target ILD’s of 14, 19, 24, 28, 32, 36, 40, & 44.
It looks to me like you are on a good track, hopefully this is the last fine tuning you need to get to your “dream mattress.”

Good luck and I’ll be interested to hear about your progress.

Phoenix

I’m truly impressed by your thorough knowledge of the bedding industry and appreciate all the details and direction you’ve provided me over the months.

Your expertise is quite extensive and honestly, it would’ve been a much longer and agonizing process without it.

I’m excited that I’ve come to another decision I’m comfortable with and will order an exchange soon.

I’ll keep you posted on the outcome. Thank you once again!

I’ve actually enjoyed the learning process and should I return to the workforce, maybe I’ll look at helping people like you! It’s a fascinating “science” as well as a deeply personal luxury everyone needs but have so little understanding of.

Best,
Janel Dreeka

Hi Janel (santamonicagal)

You’re certainly very welcome and thank you for the kind words. I’m glad that the site is so helpful and that you are gaining clarity.

I am very happy to see that you are excited about it! People really underestimate the value of gathering good quality, restorative sleep. You can see a bit of our origin here. :slight_smile:

Keep us posted

Phoenix

Love the humor, thanks for this… thank goodness for backbones and your beautiful Latex!!