Issue with Tuft and Needle

I’ve been lurking and reading all the information on this site. Thanks to Phoenix for doing this. I went ahead and pulled the trigger on Tuft and Needle after doing my homework.

I got it and feel a little deceived. :frowning: I bought a Tuft and Needle thinking that I’m buying from the people who make the mattress. I was surprised that they don’t make it. It is made by somebody called Interactive Bedding Solutions in California. How did I find out about this? I checked the white tag on the mattress and searched the database and found the company. The tag has a registry number of CA 43737. This is where I found it:.

After some research, I found that Interactive Bedding Solutions is also known as or part of Abad Foam (www.abadfoam.com). How can they get away with this? Is this false advertising? They aren’t cutting out the middleman. They don’t make the mattress. They just pickup the phone and place an order with the factory.

If they are lying about this, I thought about what other things are they making up? I did some digging and made some calls and found out they are using 1" of 1.8 pound, 2" of 1.9 pound, and 2" of 1.8 pound foam. I got this from someone who works in the factory at Interactive Bedding Solutions/ Abad Foam. They asked me not to give any other information because they don’t want to lose their job. Why do they claim that they use 2 pound foam when they don’t? They just give a statement that it is about 2 pounds.

Trust me on this information. I’ve done by homework. I just wish that I knew about it before I pulled the trigger and thought other people should know the facts before buying. I’m very disappointed. Tuft and Needle claims to be trying to change the industry and they are as deceptive as the rest of the mattress biz. Is there anyone out there that I could trust?

My guess is that after posting this I’ll be contacted by Tuft and Needle saying if I’m not happy that they will take care of me and give me a full refund. That is nice and all, but I should have been told the truth up front.

Thanks again to the Phoenix. You are an invaluable resource of knowledge and information. I love the site!!! :slight_smile:

Hi tkearn,

Thanks for your feedback and for adding the results of your research to the forum.

Your comments are also relevant to some of the things that can cause confusion with many consumers, some of the differences between marketing information and more accurate information, and some of the “fuzzy lines” between them.

First of all … you are certainly correct that Tuft & Needle isn’t a mattress manufacturer and they don’t have their own factory. What they do is design and test their own mattress and then as you pointed out they have it manufactured by a foam fabricator. Most retail stores purchase their “brand name” mattresses from a mattress manufacturer who in turn purchases the individual components from a foam supplier such as Abad who in turn purchases their bulk foams from a foam manufacturer which they then cut or fabricate in various ways. In some cases even mattress manufacturers will outsource some of the parts of their mattresses to other companies (such as purchasing pre-made quilted covers rather than making their own with a quilting machine or buying layers that are already cut to a certain thickness by a fabricator rather than buying a foam bun from a foam manufacturer and then cutting the layers themselves). In other words … there are many “layers” between raw materials and a final mattress and there is a great deal of overlap between each layer as the industry looks for cost efficiencies. Some foam manufacturers are also making mattresses for example and there are even some mattress manufacturers that are pouring their own foam.

What this means is that Tuft & Needle has eliminated some of the steps compared to some of the mattresses you would find in a retail store but they are not an actual mattress manufacturer and would be more correctly called a reseller.

In terms of foam densities … this is also a “fuzzy area”. When a mattress manufacturer orders foam they will generally specify a tolerance that is acceptable to them because foams aren’t produced in exact densities or ILD’s. For example they may order a 2 lb polyfoam with a +/- tolerance of .2 lb which means that the foam they actually receive would be somewhere in between 1.8 lbs and 2.2 lbs. In practical terms … it would normally mean that the foams that they received would be on the lower end of the range unless they specified otherwise. Larger spec tolerances would be less costly than tighter spec tolerances.

I think that it would be reasonable that a foam that was around 2 lb could easily be 1.9 lb but I also agree that a 1.8 lb polyfoam is a fairly wide variance. This would be especially true if it was ordered as 1.8 lbs rather than 2 lbs. You can see an exampleof a manufacturer that specifies the tolerance range of their foam densities here and the range for their polyfoam density is +/- .1 lb.

While they are a good quality/value option that has low risk because of a generous return policy (that also benefits local charities similar to the World Bed program that Interactive Bedding Solutions also sponsors) … I also agree that some of the information on their site (including this page about typical margins or markup with other manufacturers) is somewhat misleading and exaggerated (see post #2 here) and I wish they would change it to something more realistic and accurate that doesn’t imply that most retailers or factory direct mattress manufacturers are marking up their mattresses by 500% over their wholesale cost or that their comparisons were more “apples to apples” based on realistic industry averages.

There are many “layers” between the raw chemicals or materials used to make mattress components and a mattress that is sold to a consumer and each distribution layer has their own margins. Some of these include the chemical companies that make the chemicals used to make polyfoam or memory foam or synthetic latex, the plantations that harvest the rubber used to make natural latex, the foam manufacturers that pour the cores, the manufacturers that use raw fibers to make covers or fabrics, the foam manufacturers that pour the foam, the foam fabricators that cut or further fabricate the foam, the mattress manufacturers that make the mattresses, the distributors that store and ship the mattresses to the point of sale, the delivery companies that actually ship the mattresses, and the retailers themselves. It’s also true that there is trend in the industry for each of these levels of production and distribution to integrate with others (such as foam manufacturers or foam fabricators who make mattresses rather than just supply components) to realize cost efficiencies and lower the price of their mattresses so from this perspective Tuft & Needle has eliminated some of the layers in the supply chain.

It’s also true however that they are not a mattress manufacturer and that there are other options that use the same materials or provide different or more choices that are in the same value range.

You certainly have a good quality/value mattress and the return policy also adds to the value of an online purchase but the points you made also make clear that they are “not quite” as different from other good quality/value options as some of the information on their site would have you believe … if you are making apples to apples comparisons with other good quality/value manufacturers or resellers (who are doing the same thing as they are).

Their comparisons would be more accurate if you compare them to the mainstream industry (although they are still exaggerated) and I wouldn’t hesitate to buy a mattress from them if I believed their specific design and somewhat limited options were suitable for me along with the lowered risk of their return policy but they are not nearly as accurate if they are compared to some of the other options that are available from the better value mattress manufacturers or resellers that are available to more “informed” consumers.

Thanks again for your post and for bringing up some good points :slight_smile:

Phoenix

tkearn,

Which T&N mattress did you get? What did you think of the mattress?

Thx!

I think I read someplace in their markerting materlies… or maybe it was in some of the press T&N where stating just what you found… they shopped around for a good deal of the foam and then package it up for us customers. However, I do feel they are a bit missleading with their markup page… I personally have an issue with that bar graph.

I will give a my breif thoughts about the ten I’ve been sleep on for the last 2-3 weeks. I like it, but I don’t know if i would recomend or suggest it to others. I don’t think the mattress hits that sweet spot for a vast majority of the population. It has relived some hip/leg pain I’ve been battleing for the last year and a half… and some mornings I have awoken to spasms in my back. Yet I look forward to sleeping in it but slightly dreed waking up.

Hi mitchejj,

Thanks for your feedback … I appreciate it.

If your mattress is too firm and needs some additional comfort or pressure relief then it would make a good base for adding a topper.

If you do decide to go in this direction … then the topper guidelines in post #2 here and the posts it links to may be helpful

Phoenix

Hi mitchejj:

Are you planning on keeping your T&N Ten? Or will you be getting a refund?

Also, do you find it too be too firm? Or not firm enough?

Thx!

Hey Phoenix:

Could mitchejj’s symptoms described in #5 be an indication of something too firm? Or too soft?

When someone says that they like falling asleep in it, but dread waking up, what would that suggest?

Just trying to understand. Thx!

Hi darkarchon,

I don’t have enough information to really know with any certainty (I can’t feel what they feel or see them on the mattress and I don’t know anything about their body type or sleeping positions) and what is too firm for one person may be too soft for the next.

If I had to guess though (and it would be a complete shot in the dark) I would guess it was too firm only because I know the mattress is on the firmer end of the spectrum and that the most likely cause of issues for most people would be that it was too firm rather than too soft. Having said that … Mithejj also mentioned that they were used to sleeping on the floor so if they were also in a higher weight range then it’s possible that for them it could also be too soft.

Symptoms that take a longer period of time to feel are most often related to alignment issues (that can be caused by a mattress that is too soft or too firm … both of which can cause different parts of the spine to sag and be out of alignment).

For those who experience various “symptoms” on a mattress it can take some trial and error and detective work to decide how it may need to change (softer or firmer, which layer may need to change, or any of the other changes in design that can help with the feel and performance of a mattress relative to a particular person) but there is much more information about this in post #2 here and the other posts it links to that may be useful and help identify what the symptoms may be pointing to.

Phoenix