Kingsdown Quality & Pricing Questions

I purchased a Kingsdown Bethesda Plush Mattress from Mattress Warehouse yesterday and I had the following questions.

Mattress Details

  • King Set including box spring
  • Salesman included heavy duty frame, shipping and two pillows for total cost of $3,100 before tax
  • List price was $4,999 for the king set
  • MMAP was around $3,600 for mattress only which was his starting price
  1. How many years of utility can I expect from this mattress?
  2. Is this a decent deal for this mattress given the pricing details above?
  3. Would most of you suggest cancelling the order and doing more research on this site?

Thank in advance.

Hi Nowhisky,

Welcome to the Mattress Forum! :slight_smile:

I’m sorry you didn’t find us before making your purchase, but at least you’re here now! B)

I would include Kingsdown in the “major manufacturers” group that I would completely avoid (along with any mattress where you aren’t able to find out what is inside it). They don’t disclose the materials in their mattresses and they are not very good quality/value. I would tend to avoid the Kingsdown unless there was a compelling reason to do otherwise.

The major brands such as Sealy/Stearns & Foster, Simmons, and Serta all tend to use lower quality and less durable materials in their mattresses than most of their smaller competitors that will tend to soften or break down prematurely relative to the price you pay which is why I would generally suggest avoiding all of them completely (along with the major retailers that focus on them as well) regardless of how they may feel in a showroom along with any mattress where you aren’t able to find out the type and quality/durability of the materials inside it (see the guidelines here along with post #3 here and post #12 here and post #404 here).

Regarding your question about pricing, I would tell you to completely ignore the MSRP and MMAP pricing, as these are generally just starting points used to inflate the perception of the “deal” you’re getting. Here’s a video that gives a behind-the-scene look form a retailer’s perspective about such pricing. Even a MMAP price can often be three times the actual cost of the mattress, depending upon brand.

If possible, I’d recommend that you “rethink” your mattress buying process and start again. Start here with our Mattress Shopping Tutorial. It’s a lot to read but by using this information you’ll be in the situation to make a much better choice.

Let us know what you decide to do!

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

Thank you for your the quick and thorough response.

I went ahead and canceled my order for the Kingsdown mattress. When I called I talked to a different sales person who talked to his manager and then asked me what price would make me reconsider. I was tempted to say $0, but I just explained that I no longer needed the mattress. He asked if $2,500 would work and then quickly went down to $2,300. This is after the other salesman told me that no one gets this mattress for $3,100. I thought everyone on here might enjoy that story.

I have read through a few of the posts that you provided which are very helpful. I will continue to read through them over the next few days. I am hoping to head out this weekend to look at mattresses again but I am not sure which local shops or factory direct retailers to visit in my area. I live in southern New Jersey about 20 minutes north east of center city Philadelphia, zip code 08077. Would you be able to provide a few trusted retailers in my area?

Thanks Again.,
Scott

Hi Nowhisky,

Unfortunately, it is conduct like this that makes people despise shopping for a mattress :angry: . I’m glad you stood your ground and realized what was happening. Thank you for sharing your experience.

Subject to first confirming that any retailer or manufacturer on the list that you wish to visit is completely transparent (see this article) and to making sure that any mattress you are considering meets your criteria and the quality/value guidelines here … the better options or possibilities I’m aware of in and around the Philadelphia/Wilmington/Trenton areas are listed in post #4 here. There’s also a broader list in post #2 here and in post #7 here.

I look forward to learning about your progress.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

Thank you for all of the information in your previous post.

I made a trip to the Shovlin Mattress Factory in Fanwood, NJ today. I tried a few of the beds and settled on the Nirvana line but I have a few questions before making the purchase which I am hoping you can help answer.

The salesman provided the following specs:

  • 5" HR Polyfoam core
  • 6" Natural Talalay Latex comfort layer
  • Quilting layer with thin foam layer, fire resistant layer and cotton/poly fabric

The IDLs of the foam layers of the various models are also listed below.
Firm: 36 Latex on 45 Poly
Medium: 36 Latex on 36 Poly
Soft: 36 Latex on 28 Poly
Plush: 28 Latex on 36 Poly
Ultraplush: 28 Latex on 28 Poly

My questions are as follows:

  1. Are there any other questions I need to ask regarding the composition of the various layers to ensure the quality and durability of the mattress?

  2. In your budget section you write that any mattress over $3,000 may be excessive. This mattress in a king is priced at $3,599 before the 5% MU discount. Can I get a mattress with a similar composition at a better value?

  3. The salesman stated that he was not sure how long the mattress would maintain its comfort level because they have only been selling latex mattresses for about 15 years but he said they should last as long as 2-3 innerspring mattresses would last. Does this sound accurate?

  4. They offer a pillowtop topper with the Nirvana beds. He stated that they used to include them down into the bed but they were getting warranty claims due to issues with the pillowtop so they removed them and now offer them as a separate item. Is it worth getting the topper or would it be the weakest link in the comfort layer and fail early?

Thank You,
Scott

Hi nowhisky,

You’re welcome!

The latex is Talalay, which is a high quality and durable material. You’d just want to confirm the density of the polyfoam base used (at a minimum above 1.8 lb.)

You can see some comments about the Nirvana design in post #7 here. All the materials are high quality and there are no weak links in the design so from a quality perspective the design is great. From a suitability perspective it uses a more unusual design approach that has firmer materials on top and then changes the firmness of the deeper layers to add additional “give” underneath the latex. This would be similar to a “dominating layer” (see post #33 here and the posts it links to) and would also be similar in a way to say a 6" firmer latex mattress that uses a box spring underneath it to provide some extra give under pressure points. These types of designs create a firmer sleeping surface with a much more “on the mattress” feel with some additional give and softness underneath the firmer layers. A forum search on Shovlin Nirvana (you can just click the link) will bring up more information and feedback from some of the forum members here about it as well.

The biggest issue in your choice will be deciding whether the “degree of difference” in terms of sleep quality and PPP and all the other parts of your personal value equation would justify the higher actual or material cost of the Nirvana. These are always “best judgement” choices which can be difficult to assess except in hindsight although neither mattress you are considering would have any weak links in terms of durability.

At the end of the day … when you look back on a mattress purchase a decade or more from now you will remember much more about how well you slept and how long you slept well than you will about the price you paid for a mattress and in either case the cost of a good quality/value mattress spread out over the time you use it would be well worth it and is very reasonable compared to other major purchases or even “regular expenses” that can have a significant effect on your overall wellbeing. Having said that of course … the price is usually paid up front and not over time so it would also be a significant factor in any mattress purchase … particularly if the design or materials of two mattresses are similar.

If you want to compare elsewhere, then I would look online and use the experience and expertise of the members listed in post #21 here who are all very experienced and knowledgeable and specialize in providing the type of help and guidance on the phone that can help you make good choices. There are a wide range of latex and memory foam and other options included in the choices there and I believe that all of them compete well with the best in the industry in terms of their quality, value, service, and transparency (approximating the configuration used by Shovlin might be difficult, as it is unique).

Post #2 here and this topic have more about the pros and cons of a local vs an online purchase.

In a very general sense, and assuming the polyfoam base is still up to the last specifications I have, then it would be reasonable to expect a durable comfort life out of this product. While there are stories of latex mattresses lasting over 50 years, that is not the ordinary. It certainly wouldn’t be unreasonable to expect over ten years form a product like this, with anything over that what I consider to be “bonus time.” Unfortunately, we’re seeing shorter and shorter comfort life values in the industry for the “typical fare” innersprings sold at furniture and department stores, with many “premium” products failing after only 3-4 years. The mattress you’re considering certainly uses higher quality componentry that what you’d typically find.

I tend to be a fan of “keeping it simple” and not include the topper as part of the original equation, unless there was a truly compelling reason for its use with a new mattress system. It can often make the process more confusing, and you always have the ability to add a topper later.

As you’re aware, Shovlin Mattress Factory is a member of this site, which means I think highly of them. I wouldn’t hesitate to trust their advice with the specific configuration that they would recommend for you and your particular situation.

I’m looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

Again, thank you for all the great information.

I had a quick conversation with Ron this afternoon and he was able to confirm that the Polyfoam has a density of 2.5 pounds per cubic foot.

I am leaning toward the Plush model which has a 6" Natural Talalay Latex comfort layer with an IDL of 28 on top of a 5" HR Polyfoam core with an IDL of 36. Would this still be similar to the “dominating layer” that you referenced?

I also had a question regarding what is usually placed under a foam mattress. They sell a box foundation with the Nirvana which can be used when placing the mattress on a standard metal frame. Would it make more sense to purchase a bed frame with a flat foundation on which to place the mattress directly?

Thanks,
Scott

Hi Nowhisky,

You’re welcome. :slight_smile:

Thank you for confirming the density on the base foam of the Shovlin Nirvana mattress. Ron is very knowledgeable and I’m glad he could answer your questions.

The combination you describe would be in the “plush” range as described by Shovlin. The “dominating layer” terminology I used refers to the practice of using “firmer” layers on top of “softer” layers. In your selection, you’re actually considering a softer layer on top of a firmer layer. But because your upper softer layer is a 6" core, it will tend to have a bit of a “crisper” plush feel, and at 28 ILD overall this is a bit firmer than let’s say a traditional “plush mattress” where a manufacturer might use a few inches of a 19 ILD latex, then transition to a firmer ILD, and then another layer of an even firmer ILD (what I call a "progressive arrangement). The 2.5 lb., 36 ILD base foam acts almost as a bit of a traditional box spring under your latex piece, providing a bit of give, but again in a resultant overall more supportive feeling plush comfort.

I think you’re referring to the newer style of elevated metal grid networks that are about 15" tall that are designed to replace the frame and the foundation. Generally speaking, a good heavy-duty foundation with a strong bed frame will be a more appropriate support platform than the all-in-one elevated metal grid network.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

We ended up purchasing the Plush model of the Nirvana mattress from Shovlin.

After a little over a month of sleeping on the mattress we determined that it is too firm. I spoke with Shovlin (great customer service) and they are willing to exchange the Plush model for the Ultra Plush model if that is what we want.

Do you think we should make the exchange or focus on looking for a topper that we both like? The specs for the Plush and Ultra Plush models are included below.

Plush

  • 6" Talalay Latex comfort layer (28 ILD)
  • 5" HD Polyfoam support layer (36 ILD)

Ultra Plush

  • 6" Talalay Latex comfort layer (28 ILD)
  • 5" HD Polyfoam support layer (28 ILD)

Thanks,
Nowhisky

Hi Nowhisky,

Belated congratulations on your new mattress! :cheer:

I’m sorry your mattress is a bit too firm for your preference, but as you know Shovlin (a member here) provides great service and I’m glad they’re willing to work with you on a potential comfort change.

[quote]Do you think we should make the exchange or focus on looking for a topper that we both like? The specs for the Plush and Ultra Plush models are included below.
Plush

  • 6" Talalay Latex comfort layer (28 ILD)
  • 5" HD Polyfoam support layer (36 ILD)
    Ultra Plush
  • 6" Talalay Latex comfort layer (28 ILD)
  • 5" HD Polyfoam support layer (28 ILD)[/quote]
    The most immediate and noticeable changes in comfort will result in changes to the uppermost layers of the mattress, so you’ll notice a more dramatic change by adding a topper. If you’re happy with the support/alignment features of your current mattress, you may wish to investigate a quality latex topper.

Changing the layers deeper down in the mattress will result in a less noticeable change (but certainly perceptible), but they can also have an impact on your support/alignment.

The best advice I can provide you would be to visit Shovlin again and test the Ultra Plush versus the Plush with a topper and see which provides the type of extra softness you’re desiring, as each will have a different quality. It really will come down to your own personal testing, and I would certainly give strong consideration to any advice they provide you at Shovlin, as they are quite knowledgeable about their products, not only how they feel now but how they will perform and feel in the future. But in the end your own personal PPP should be your guide.

I’m looking forward to learning about what you decide to do.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

As always, thank you for all the great information.

My primary concern with the Ultra Plush model is that I would be losing the progressive support of the 36 ILD polyfoam in the support layer. Shovlin included a topper with the mattress but we didn’t feel like that made enough of a difference in comfort.

I was looking at the Pure Green™ Natural Latex Mattress Topper (sleeponlatex.com) which has a 20 ILD (soft) option but I wasn’t sure how thick of a topper I would need (1", 2" & 3" thickness options). Is this the type of latex topper you would recommend looking into?

Thanks,
Nowhisky

Hi Nowhisky,

It would be a difference in support, wo that is why you’d definitely want to test it again to see if it negatively impacted your alignment.

What type of topper was it: What was the material used? ILD? Thickness?

I can’t pick a topper for you, as there are entirely too many variables involved to predict from afar what you “might” like. Knowing what you tried earlier from Shovlin would be a helpful reference. A plush latex topper like you mentioned certainly is a popular style that many people use for extra surface comfort. A 2" is usually popular for those who want “just a bit extra” comfort, and a 3" is usually more popular for those who want a more dramatic change in surface comfort.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

We tried the 3", 20 ILD Pure Green[sup]TM[/sup] Natural Latex Mattress Topper but it turned out to be worse than our original setup so we returned the topper to sleeponlatex.com which had great customer service and an easy return process.

We have been sleeping on the Nirvana (specs below) for the past year and I have developed some mid and upper back pain that I believe is the result of misalignment due to my wide shoulders and being a side sleeper. At certain times during the night I will wake up with my whole arm being numb due to the pressure on my shoulder.

I was looking into a wool topper but after reading a few posts on here became a little wary of wool. Is there a particular topper material that would best relieve the pressure on my shoulders? I have read a decent amount on toppers here but was hoping you could provide some specific advice for my shoulder issues. Also, I am 6’2" and 230 pounds with wide shoulders.

Nirvana Specs

  • Basic topper included with bed purchase which is of questionable quality
  • Quilting layer with thin foam layer, fire resistant layer and cotton/poly fabric
  • 6" Talalay Latex comfort layer (28 ILD)
  • 5" HD Polyfoam support layer (36 ILD)

Thanks,
Nowhisky

Hi Nowhisky.

I am glad that SleepOnlatex ( our Trusted Member) helped you with the return, they do indeed have a very good customer service that I think very highly of.

Mid and upper back issues can come from several sources. In the case of the upper body then good horizontal alignment is important but lateral (side to side) alignment is also important. In your situation as the back issues are also combined with the numbness of the arm this is probably a case of needing to sink in a bit more and have a plusher sleeping surface to relief the shoulder pressure points. As you did not chose the ultra-plush version of Shovlin mattress as you were advised a year ago you then you most likely need to probably the topper. You can perhaps try a softer Talalay of 19ILD or so (it has a plusher feel than Dunlop in the same ILD) I am not very sure if you did not like the thickness or the Dunlop but as many people prefer memory foam for a softer comfort surface you can have a look at a few other topper options.

There is more information about choosing a topper and a link to the better online sources I’m aware of in post #2 hereand the topper guidelines it links to which along with a conversation with a reliable and knowledgeable supplier (that can provide you with good information about how their toppers compare to each other or to other toppers they are familiar with that are available on the market) can help you use your sleeping experience as a reference point and guideline to help you choose the type, thickness, and firmness for a topper that has the least possible risk and the best chance for success. A good exchange/return policy can also reduce the risk of an online topper purchase so I would make sure you are comfortable with the options you have available after a purchase just in case the topper you choose doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for.

I am not very sure that in looking for extra-plushness you would want to select a wool topper. Wool can be an excellent choice but depends upon what attempting to accomplish.
Depending on your preferences both latex and Memory foam can be good choices to add extra plushness to your existing mattress.

[quote]…
Nirvana Specs - Basic topper included with bed purchase which is of questionable quality[/quote]

I cannot comment upon why you would call the topper “questionable” as you did not replay to question earlier in this thread about what material, ILD & thickness of the topper.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

Again, thank you for all of the useful information. After reading various posts and considering the different options I am leaning toward a memory foam topper. I feel like the support provided by the Nirvana is good but it is missing the pressure relief for me that I believe will be best achieved through memory foam. Is this a reasonable conclusion based on the information I have provided? I feel like the Latex topper I tried did not allow me to “sink in” enough to provide the pressure relief that I need.

The two toppers I am considering are listed below.

Option #1: 5 lb. Memory Foam Topper from Brooklyn Bedding (mattresstopper.com)
Option #2: Aerus Plus Memory Foam Topper from Rocky Mountain Mattress (rockymountainmattress.com)

Both toppers are constructed using 5 lb memory foam but I am having a difficult time comparing the two by anything else other than price which the Brooklyn Bedding topper would win by a mile. Do you know of any other specifications by which I can compare these two? Also, are there other memory foam options I should be considering?

Kind Regards,
Nowhisky

Nowhisky,

I’m not Phoenix, but here’s a little information that may be helpful to you.

Here’s a spec sheet on the Aerus Plus memory foam. While there are different formulations, it is one of the newer generation memory foams with more of an open cell structure and it’s supposed to be more responsive to temperature, more breathable, better at heat management and more durable than previous memory foam versions. This tends to be the direction that many memory foam producers are headed currently in the industry, along with producing some of the higher density very plush polyurethane foams that have some of the pressure relieving characteristics of memory foam with very little if any of the temperature-sensitive or changes in viscosity.

Rocky Mountain lists the IFD of their Aerus at a 14 ILD, but all memory foam will generally be in this low teen to upper teen IFD range. The IFD of memory foam is difficult to accurately test, as there has to be strict controls on temperature, humidity and time holding the measurement and time allowed for recovery.

I’m not familiar with the specific brand/type of memory foam offered by BB, but they say it is comparable to the Aerus Plus but a bit more “medium” in feel.

Both items should provide quite good plushness in a 3" version and would lack the resilience found in a softer latex layer.

Jeff Scheuer, The Beducator
Beducation / Mattress To Go