I plan to visit a semi local (60 miles) store that has the Nutrition on display. On paper it looks like it will be a decent match. I guess my primary question in regards to the Bliss brand is quality related. I realize that I could probably save some money by ordering from an online custom merchant like EZ or AZ or many others, but what would I gain aside from price? If I went with a Bliss and started to impress heavily (likely) can I replace the single layer without too much difficulty, or is the glue used aggressive enough to make it difficult? I assume all layers are blonded? Perimter only or full surface?
The Nutrition Mattress Layers, Features & Benefits:
•11-inch Profile Natural Talalay Latex Mattress
•3-inch ActiveFusion Layer
•Advanced Gel & Latex Temperature Regulating Technology
•2-inch Pressure Relief Layer
•Experience unsurpassed support with the Sleep on Air feeling that proper pressure relief offers.
•6-inch Latex Support Core •Long-Lasting Bonded Foam & Latex Core This is kind of vague. What does this mean exactly?
•20-year Manufacturer Warranty (10-year full, 10-year prorated)
What is ActiveFusion?
Pairing latex and gel, Pure LatexBLISS™ has developed the Climate Control ActiveFUSION slow response mattress collection. Bedding Gel is a revolutionary climate control material. Combining natural Talalay latex and gel, ActiveFUSION utilizes phase change material in both the fabric yarns and inside the Talalay Latex, which stores and releases energy on demand, helping two partners sleep at their optimal body temperatures. The technology cools a warm sleeper and warms a cool sleeper in the same bed.
Also, I’ve seen reference by Phoenix to fast response in the comfort layer, but the above would seem to contradict IF it were true. I’ve seen other sites call it fast response as well.
The PLB mattresses (or at least their natural line which is the most commonly seen) uses blended Talalay latex made by latex International and is used by many other manufacturers. In terms of quality only … it is a high quality material no matter who uses it in their mattresses.
These are not designed to do layer exchanges or replacements and it would also require removal of the fire barrier. I don’t know the details of how they are glued but you could certainly call them and ask. If it was possible to remove the layer easily through some degree of “mattress surgery” then of course the cover itself is removable which means you wouldn’t have to replace this part of it if you replaced a layer.
Active Fusion is just a trade name. It means that the material (cover or talalay latex) uses phase change gel microcapsules in it. Latex International calls the latex that uses the gel Talalay GL and it comes in both slow and fast response versions. Talalay GL fast response used to be called (and still is in many places) Celsion Latex. The slow response used to be called NuForm (but this didn’t have the gel and was only slow response latex).
The energy it “stores and releases” is heat energy not the forces of compression and resilience. It is basically Talalay latex with gel added when it is poured. It is used in the top layer of the various PLB mattresses and the rest of the layers are “regular” Talalay without the gel.
OK so I went to the furniture store. Salesperson started us on the Bed match computer bed gizmo and I went along with it. Nice to see where the two of us fell in regards to the various offerings. Eventually the Sr. salesperson came by and sort of took over. She saw right away that I was sinking too deep in the Kingsdown pillow top that I was testing while the machine was doing it’s test for my partner.
She pointed me right to the Bliss (far from the most expensive) and it worked. After the bliss she pointed me to a hybrid house brand (W G &R) that she figured may be close, but my hips were in too deep there as well.
So I really liked the Bliss Nutrition and I’m looking for someone to tell me NOT to buy it. Any cons? The price is actually outstanding at $1498 Queen with foundation. That seems too cheap. I was prepared to spend up to about $3k but what will I gain? Changeable layers I guess.
The store tag makeup says it’s 4" over 6" which seems to be the older unit. Old versus new am I losing out on anything real? New has the 5" over 6" and the active fusion gel. I’d gladly pay a bit more if there is a true benefit to the newer model. But then again that’s not what we tested.
Didn’t I read somewhere that there were white top and the new ones were blue?
You certainly won’t find me telling you not to buy it. As you mentioned … it is great value (similar to some of the excellent value that other forum members have found with the old models) and uses great quality materials. If it is new and warranty covered (not a floor model) and you are satisfied with it in terms of PPP … then it would be a great purchase.
Yes there are some advantages to other options but I think what you have found makes up for them in terms of overall value.
No … all of the mattress is still Talalay latex and while the Active fusion may have some benefit for some … the sleeping temperature of a mattress is a combination of many factors (the foam, ticking, mattress protector, sheets etc) and the top layer is only one of these. So I would call the new model a smaller benefit for some people but once again as you mentioned … you have tested this one … it works … and it’s great value.
Yes … the active fusion models have a bluish cover.
I think what I’ll do is call one of their larger stores and see if they have the light blue ones. I’ll also have my store check to see if the one that they show in stock in the warehouse is white or blue. Once I know whqat they have and the price for a new blue one I’ll weigh the options.
I would seriously doubt that the new ones would be anywhere close to the price you are being quoted (the “regular” or minimum advertised price is close to double)
Is there any true benefit or drawback to the gel deal in the active fusion?
Is this just the next advertising hype?
I called and made a request to look into the availability of the new blue one for a test drive. I hate to buy a 2011 model without testing the 2012 since it is already out.
The gel that is used in the Talalay GL fast response is a phase change gel. You can read some of my thoughts about regulating sleeping temperature in post #2 here. There is also more about the different types of gels that are added to various foams at the end of post #4 here.
In terms of their cooling properties … I think that in combination with the other factors that affect the temperature of a mattress … the different forms of gel can be an incremental benefit for some people but the claims about them are also overblown in the current marketing frenzy about gel foams in general.
The only real drawback is that the material costs are higher and this would be wasted for those who don’t notice any “real world” benefit.
As a part of the bigger picture that affects temperature regulation … they will probably make some difference for some people who tend to sleep hot (although talalay latex is already the most breathable and coolest category of foam material).
I’m still waiting to hear back on the price and availability of the “blue” model. In the mean time I did learn something unique about the Nutrition. It was puzzling me as to how the materials could be the same spec as the Nature and the Nutrition even has an extra inch of latex up top yet it was rated lower on the scale of plushness. Well it turns out that the Nutrition uses a concept that I inquired about a few days back called Dominant layer where they put the middle ILD latex up top and the softer layer below it. To me this seems to be the answer for those who like just a shade on the firm side. It gives the impression of firm while still having plenty of “depth” for adequate pressure relief.
So I now have a direction and need to decide if I want to do a DIY setup from SleepEZ or buy ready built from Bliss. The sticking point with the DIY setup is it actually costs a bit more, plus the ILD’s run a good 2-4 points higher and the layers are all 3" versus 2" for the white Bliss. I did drop an email to SleepEZ rather than call again, but that has gone unanswered. I like to measure a companies responsiveness by email as well as phone, plus an email leaves a written record so one can go back and re-read at ones leisure.
Searchig for feedback on the Bliss line I did find a fair bit of discontent at the goodbed site, BUT in most cases Bliss themselves were active in helping the complaintant get a new bed regardless of the selling dealer’s level of cooperation. That is a BIG plus. I also found it strange that a MFR using the same top quality materials produced by it’s parent company could have such issues as uneven surfaces from new etc.
Yes … this was one of the things I was intrigued about and impressed me about their mattresses when I first learned about them and watched some of their original videos which showed they were using “dominant layering (and were also very funny). I posted about this on another site before this site was up and running but then many retailers posted different specs (with progressive layering rather than dominant layering) and these revised” and somewhat inaccurate specs were the ones that became predominant on the internet and were also posted in this forum.
The “real” layering (top to bottom) for the Nutrition is most likely along the lines of …
I know the layer thicknesses and the order of materials is correct (it comes from their own spec sheet) and the ILD’s are an “informed guess” (confirmed since this post was written).
Many manufacturers have standardized layer thicknesses and ILD’s available that may not match exactly a mattress you are trying to “duplicate”. In this case … you have to “translate” the cumulative effect of all the layers and components with educated intuition and even here it may not feel the same for everyone (because different layering combinations will interact differently with different people).
Having said all that … many mattress manufacturers can build a mattress with the exact layering you choose but they may not have the same exchange options as their standard “DIY” designs.
A lot of the “discontent” has to do with comfort issues rather than quality issues (people making the wrong choice of mattress) but as you mentioned there have been some quality issues posted there as well . To PLB’s credit they have been very responsive to any of the complaints that did involve quality. The ILD’s used by PLB in their comfort layers and in their toppers are softer than many manufacturers would be comfortable using (in the toppers especially) … particularly for heavier people.
The PLB in white felt nice, but the blue intrigues me. I felt that I could have used just a touch more support filling into my lower back. This is where the PLB blue intrigues me, BUT is not available through std channels.
The Sleepez is a crap shoot I guess. Not only do the thicknesses vary, but the ILD’s are significantly more firm.
So my question is does the added thickness help to close the gap in the ILD’s between the PLB and Sleepez??
Also would I potentially be better starting with the higher ILD of the Sleepez so that when it “breaks in” it is more like the PLB that I like new?
Also looking to see if I can get Verlo to do something custom in this range, but it’s looking doubtful.
Also why the wide range in ILD from Sleepez rather than a specific number?
You are certainly asking the right questions to help you narrow down your choices. WG&R furniture is the retailer local to you that carries the PLB but they are also the factory that makes it for the region. They are still making the old version and have no specific plans to switch so for now it seems unlikely that you would find a place to test the new version.
You could always add a thin topper if it became necessary.
They do have very low cost layer exchanges but as you mentioned the layer thicknesses and ILD’s are slightly different (they are “one step” up for their soft and medium which is not a large jump). Layer thickness also acts in a similar way to layer softness so more thickness does make a layer (or a mattress) feel softer which would “close the gap” yes.
Mainly for two reasons. First they have several suppliers which may not have exactly the same ILD rating for soft, medium, or firm so the range is a catchall that fits different material choices (2- 3 ILD would not be perceptible for most people) but also because ILD is never an exact number and there is a range firmness levels both across the surface of a layer and between different layers that are rated the same ILD (see post #6 here).
It doesn’t only vary between different suppliers … it varies across the same layer and between different layers with the same “rating” from the same supplier. There is no latex that has a single ILD across the entire surface of a layer although Talalay has less variance across the surface than Dunlop. Latex International for example takes 9 different ILD measurements in different places on the surface of a 6" core … they then “average” these measurements (which can vary by @ +/- 2 on either side of the average) and assign them to the rating number that comes closest to the average. ILD is not a single number in any version of latex … no matter who makes it … even in the same layer.
LI is the only manufacturer that produces Talalay in the US but Radium Talalay is also fairly widely available in the US as well even though it’s made in Europe. There are two other latex foam manufacturers that pour latex in the US (Latexco and Sapsa) but they make Dunlop not Talalay.
As far as the choices you have … It would seem to me that in terms of value anyway that the choices you have are great (excluding the active fusion version which I personally wouldn’t pursue although each person may assign a different value to various options) and the “local value” that is available to you is excellent.
I also agree with your analysis of the “value tradeoffs” involved in the two. I should also mention that the SleepEz foundation is better than the one that normally comes with the PLB as well and the SleepEz has a wool quilted cover which is a more costly component than the cover that comes with the PLB. I’m not sure where your price came from but the equivalent SleepEz model (in terms of the amount of latex) would be somewhere in between the Natural 10000 ($1750 less TMU discount plus foundation) and the Natural 13000 ($1950 less TMU discount plus foundation).
Say I have another question. I’m leaning towards the Sleepez 13000 series. First is there any way that a person can “feel” the parting line in a split layer with the wool top? I’m leaning towards just going with a solid upper layer anyhow, but…
Also all call this one stashing a layer. If I were to do my first 3 layers with #3 being firm or extra firm and then “stash” a layer of soft or medium below it will this layer remain stable/like new or will it compress and will this affect the feel at all? I guess I’d be in a double dominant layer config. My thought is that the lowest layer may compress somewhat, but the compression should be pretty uniform due to the firmness of the layer above?
For example my side would be:
Med
Soft
Xfirm
Med
The lower medium would be available to swap with the soft and test that config
Hers would be:
Med
Soft
Firm
Soft
The lower soft would be there to swap with any other layer
The only way I would paint myself into a corner would be if I went a full sheet of medium up top. I realize that I’d have layer exchage options and there’s also return possibility, I’m just not the kind of guy who buys something to try just because of a liberal exchange/return policy.
With a quilted cover … generally no. Post #2 here has more about this.
In a one sided mattress … there really isn’t any long term benefit to having a soft layer on the bottom and in some cases it could increase the risk of support/alignment issues (depending on the thickness and softness of the layer). It could also affect the durability of the mattress on certain foundations that didn’t provide enough support surface. Unless there was a compelling (or temporary) reason to do otherwise … I would tend to avoid soft layers on the bottom of a one sided mattress.
If you did decide to “stash” a layer on the bottom … I would tend to exchange it for a firmer layer once your best layering arrangement is locked in.
Well I placed my order for the Sleepez 13000. Not sure why the new blue PLB is delayed in our market area plus I fiugured I’d be well served to have a configurable and rebuildable (if necessary) mattress.
I have a notion that I may do well with 6" of medium versus 3 med/3 soft so I gave myself some options:
Medium
soft-soft
med-firm
firm-ext firm
This hould give me plenty of tuning options and really the only way it could get messed up is if the Sleepez Med is too firm on her side I just liked the idea of having a full sheet of medium on top. I think it will work fine. I might shift later 4 up to 3 and test like that as well and I can always stash a soft in level 4 on her side or exchange.
I also will be picking up one of those goofy pilows that I tried and liked:
I have a “feeling” you will be doing some experimenting (whether you need to or not) out of curiosity alone and I’m looking forward to your feedback and comments on the various combinations you will probably try.
Thanks for all the great questions and feedback on the forum … so far.
