Latex Comfort Layer

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
5

Thanks Phoenix. I’ve continued to read and research and am now officially in the vortex of mattress research and shopping! I have pretty much decided on a Dunlop topper but based on what I’ve read I’m still not sure about the ILD and thickness! Any thoughts or advice you can offer would be much appreciated. I know that I am the only one who can ultimately decide but I’m hoping for a second opinion on what would give me (and my SO) the best shot at comfort.

Here is the scenario: we have a 1.8 slab of polyfoam. It is pretty new and in good shape. It is very firm. Currently there is a 2" memory foam topper on top but I think I’m going to remove that completely and put it elsewhere. I am 5’8 weighing 130. Mostly slim build with a tiny bit extra in the hips. My SO is also 5’8" weighing 160. He is not particularly broad at any point - just “regular” as he calls it. I have lower back pain in the morning. He is pain free.

I’m concerned that the 2" 30ILD will feel too firm but that if I go for a 20ILD it will not alleviate my back pain because it wont offer enough support. I guess I can always add on and adjust but it would probably be more expensive and additionally I only get one free return a year.

So at this point I’m wondering what the “best guess” would be. Just looking for a second opinion based on the current scenario. Like I said, I know its a personal experience but just based on what we know now, what would you recommend for a plan of action regarding thickness and ILD?

Thanks again .

6

Hi kate,

I’m not sure what I can add to my comments earlier in this topic except perhaps to encourage you to have some more detailed phone conversations with several of the online suppliers you are considering who will be your best source of guidance and will know more about “matching” the toppers they have available to different people and mattresses than anyone else.

If you are planning on removing the memory foam completely and if your base layer is very firm then I would probably consider a topper that was a little bit thicker (say 3") so that it will isolate you more from the firmness of the base layer and I would probably go with something a little bit softer than the 30 ILD you are considering as well so that you have a little bit better pressure relief and secondary support that can “fill in” the more recessed parts of your sleeping profile.

Phoenix

7

Thanks Phoenix. When you say a little bit softer than 30, are you referring to the 20, or are there more options? (I didn’t realize that if there are). And, if 20 is on the softer end, is it still capable of providing that secondary support and pressure relief? Thanks again so much.

8

Hi kate,

Both Dunlop and Talalay latex come in a wide range of firmness levels. As an example you can see the ILD ranges for the different firmness levels for Latex Green 100% natural Dunlop in post #2 here although not every manufacturer or retailer will have all the different firmnesses available.

I would also keep in mind that ILD/IFD ratings don’t compare well between different types of materials or between different types and blends of latex partly because ILD/IFD is tested differently with polyfoam than it is with latex and produces different results (see post #6 here) and partly because there are other specifications besides ILD that can affect how soft or firm a layer feels (see post #4 here).

Every layer and component in a mattress (including the cover and quilting) will affect the feel and performance of every other layer above and below it and the mattress “as a whole” so it would really depend on the body type and sleeping style of the person and the overall design of the mattress (not just a single layer).

“Support” is often misunderstood because the goal of a “supportive” mattress is to keep the spine and joints in good alignment and this requires the type of contouring support that allows some parts of the body to sink in more (softer) and some parts of the body to sink in less (firmer) and this will vary on an individual basis. There is more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between “support/alignment” and “comfort/pressure relief” and “feel” and how they interact together.

If you sleep on your side or are in lower weight ranges then based on “averages” you will tend to do better with softer comfort layers (or a softer topper) than someone that sleeps on their back or stomach or that is in a higher weight range. Since both of you are in a lower weight range then the odds are higher that you may do better with softer comfort layers than someone that is heavier but the only way to know for certain whether any sleeping system or combination of materials and components is a good “match” for you in terms of PPP and how well you will sleep on them will be based on your own personal experience.

Phoenix

9

Thanks so much Phoenix. This truly is like a worm hole. Not sure if iI mentioned that I’m (ideally) a back sleeper, my husband is a side sleeper. We both have less than ideal posture I’m sure. (The link about posture was fascinating and makes a lot of sense. I actually sleep with a wedge because it rounds out my lower back and decreases the morning lower back pain)

I’d like to stick with SleeponLatex because I haven’t been able to find a better return policy. They only offer 20 and 30 ILD (Dunlop) so it’s limiting my options. (If you know of others who offer comparable return policies I’d love to hear about them). Because of that I’m thinking of starting with 2" of 30 (despite my fear that it will be too firm) and then adding 1" of 20 if necessary. I’m not entirely comfortable with this plan but it seems like my best option at this point. I wish I could find a middle ground (24-26) with similar return flexibilty but havent had any success. Any thoughts on this plan? Possible pitfalls that I haven’t considered?

Thanks again Phoenix!

10

Hi kate,

there is more information about choosing a topper in post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to which along with a conversation with a reliable supplier that can provide you with good information about how their toppers compare to each other or to other toppers they are familiar with that are available on the market can help you use your sleeping experience as a reference point and guideline to help you choose the type, thickness, and firmness for a topper that has the least possible risk and the best chance for success. It also includes a link to a list of some of the better online sources for toppers I’m aware of and a link to the online suppliers that have good exchange/return policies as well (although you would need to check with them about any costs involved since I don’t know them off the top of my head).

There really isn’t anything that I can think of that I can add to my comments in my previous replies.

Phoenix

11

Hi Phoenix,

Well, we got our topper (2" Dunlop “soft”, 20ILD) and have been “sleeping” on it for 2 nights. This next thought may be a direct result of a couple of sleepless nights, but I can’t shake the image of the Earth as a rubber ball that we are sleeping on top of. I love the support, it feels much better than the memory foam on my lower back, but it feels like it’s “pushing back” a bit too much. (It’s kind of like punching us in the gut at this point). Excuse the humor. Anyway, just wondering what you thoughts are. I get that there may be an adjustment, or breaking in, period but I’m not sure if this is that or maybe related to the Dunlop vs. Talalay or an ILD issue. I guess I’m just wondering if I should just return the darn thing and get a 3" Talalay topper. Any thoughts or suggestions would be much appreciated!

12

Hi kate,

“Pushback” is another word for resilience and latex is a highly resilient material so it’s likely that what you are feeling is just the “feel” of latex (see post #136 here). Different materials can have very different properties (outside of just firmness levels) and some people will prefer the properties or “feel” of one material and others will prefer a completely different material. For some people it can certainly take some time to get used to the “feel” of latex.

Talalay is also a highly resilient material (more than Dunlop). There is more about how Talalay compares to Dunlop in general terms in post #7 here but the best way to know whether you would prefer it over Dunlop will be based on your own personal experience.

Phoenix

13

Thanks for your response Phoenix :slight_smile: Some progress has been made over the past few days! We have tried various combinations:

  1. 6" firm polyfoam with 2" Dunlop 20 ILD

  2. 6" firm polyfoam with 2" Dunlop and 2 eggcrate toppers

  3. 6" firm polyfoam with 2 eggcrate toppers.

  4. 6" polyfoam

The least painful was definitely #2. My lower back still hurt but not as badly as the other options or the 2" memory foam we used to use.

From the hours of reading your website and phone calls to manufacturers, I think that means that the comfort layer is not thick enough and that I’m bottoming out. My lumbar is not hitting any secondary support. Therefore, I’m leaning toward a 3" talalay as my next option. (I plan on returning this topper - thank goodness I can!)

Would you agree with my assessment?

My only other question is what firmness? I’m really struggling between soft (19 ILD) and medium (28ILD). I’m sorry to beat this issue to death, but I have called several people and I’m getting mixed advice. Some say medium, some say soft. Maybe we’re kind of in the middle with our weight and sleeping preferences? (Me: 5’8" 120, back and side, lower back pain; Husband: 5’8", 160, side and back, no pain).

Or maybe its a tough call because we dont have a transition layer? I’m not sure, but I would really appreciate some “tie-breaking” advice. I realize that I’m probably your worst nightmare, and I REALLY appreciate all of your advice so far. It’s just that this is not cheap and I’ve already erred once.

Thanks so much for all of your help and any advice. FYI, I thoroughly read every and all that you’ve suggested so far. At this point, I’m not sure what else I can learn, I really am just looking for your advice - what you would do in our situation…

Thanks again, Kate

14

Hi kate,

It certainly makes sense but again the only way to know for sure would be based on your actual sleeping experience.

This type of mixed advice isn’t unusual at all because nobody can tell you for certain what you will sleep well on because there are too many variables involved and they are just providing you with their “best guess” based on the information you provide them and based on their experience and since there isn’t a “formula” that can predict how you will feel it’s not uncommon at all that different people will have different opinions.

Unfortunately nobody has a crystal ball that can predict which specific mattress or combination of materials you will like best or that you will sleep best on with any certainty based on specs or “theory at a distance” and I would be very skeptical of anyone who claims that they do because it just doesn’t exist.

If it was just for you I would probably tend towards the softer layer because of your lighter weight but this could also be more risky for your husband.

I don’t know the specifics of your polyfoam base layer but it may also be worth considering a softer 2" top layer and then a medium 2" transition layer underneath it on top of your polyfoam support core. People with different weights will sink into a mattress differently and “come to rest” on different layers in a mattress. A medium transition layer may provide some additional softness and pressure relief and secondary support that you need (compared to just a 2" layer on top of the support core) and with your lighter weight may also be firm enough to partly “act” as a primary support layer for you as well. With your husband’s higher weight the two top layers together would “act” softer for him and would function primarily as comfort layers to provide the pressure relief and secondary support he needs and the base polyfoam layer would provide most of the primary support function. This may have less risk for alignment than using just a single thicker/softer comfort layer.

Phoenix

15

Thank you very much Phoenix.

16

Thanks again Phoenix. Your last post really gave me something to think about. I’m wondering: If I keep my 20ILD 2" Dunlop layer, could that act as “medium” layer? Then maybe I could get a softer talalay layer on top? I don’t know if this math works, but if I compare densities, it seems that a 20ild Dunlop will be comparable to a 36ild Talalay (putting aside the “feel” aspect of things). 36 talalay is on the medium end of things, no? Thanks again, and in the meantime, we continue to tinker with and track various combinations to see if we can figure out what’s going on! Last night I folded over the 2" Dunlop and although it felt GREAT initially, I still woke with lower back pain. The journey continues! Thanks again :slight_smile:

17

Hi kate,

While firmness is very subjective and relative to different people’s perceptions … I think that most people would probably consider 20 ILD Dunlop to be in the soft range but the only way to know whether any layering combination will work will be based on your own personal experience.

36 ILD would be a firm layer whether it was Talalay or Dunlop and comparing densities between Dunlop and Talalay isn’t an effective way to compare their firmness. A 36 ILD Dunlop layer would probably feel a little firmer to most people than a 36 ILD Talalay layer.

Phoenix

18

Hi Phoenix, I’ve been searching the forum for a post you wrote about how sometimes sleeping postures may need to align with waking postures. I can’t seem to find it anymore. Can I ask you to send me the link?

My lower back still hurts a lot when I wake (on the 20ild Dunlop and 1 inch eggcrate). My husband looked at my alignment last and it looked good. So I’m thinking that the reason I got relief when I used to sleep with a wedge under my shoulders and head was becease it rounded out my back. Don’t know what else to do. Thanks

19

Hi kate,

Your description isn’t ringing a bell for me but perhaps it’s this one or this one or this one or this one?

If it’s not one of these links it could also be one of the posts that are linked in post #2 here or in post #10 here.

Phoenix

20

It was the third one, but they all look like they will be very helpful!!! Thanks so much…

21

Hi Phoenix,

I think that everything you have been saying has started to make sense. I feel like a bit of a dolt, but I really get now what you’ve been saying about PPP. My situation is more complex than I initially thought!!! Not only am I transitioning from sleeping on memory foam to latex, I’m also getting used to sleeping “flat” without a wedge under my upper back. Add to that my latest revelation: I carry most of my weight (130lbs) in wide hips and bigger thighs. So what I thought was a comfort layer not being deep enough to meet my lumber seems to actually be a lack of adequate support. It seems that my pelvis/hips/thighs are sinking in deeper than my top half!

The 20ild Dunlop (2") is coming close to holding my bottom half up but I think (emphasize think) I could use a touch more support under that part of my body.

So here’s what I’m wondering. Do you think I can work with my 20ild Dunlop 2"? What might I add to give me that little extra support I need in the lower parts? Or, I’m thinking that maybe I should exchange the soft and try out a medium Dunlop (30ild) to act as a transition layer and then add a comfort layer on top. (By the way, the 20ild is fine for side sleeping right now - no issues. It only hurts my lower back when I lay on my back).

Any thoughts, as usual, would be much appreciated. Next time, I’m just going to buy a bed!!!

22

Hi kate,

I really don’t know what I can add to my comments in my previous replies and I really can’t predict what will work for you or what won’t when there are so many complexities involved and you are “outside the averages” that would work for most people. The only way to know whether any combination will work for you for certain will be based on your own personal experience.

Phoenix

23

Hi Phoenix,

I’ve been making progress! I think I may be getting closer to what is going to work and would really appreciate your thoughts. After testing various combinations, I came to believe that my 2" 20ild Dunlop (on top of a 6" firm polyfoam base layer) was not holding my hips up. Right or wrong, I thought I would try a 2" 30ild topper as well to see if it made a difference.

First I tried the 2" 20ild on top of the 2" 30ild on top of the base. It feel very comfy, cradling and REALLY nice for side sleeping. But when I found myself on my back for more than a few hours I would wake up in lower back pain.

Taking a page from your play book, I switched the 2" top layers. This feels better on my lower back, my hips are sinking less and i generally wake up with less intense pain, but I find myself tossing and turning and missing some of the softness.

I was pretty well set on returning the 2" soft and sticking with the medium as that seems to best address my primary concern - lower back pain. (I can only return one). It also seems a better place to “build from”. I was also pretty set on ordering a 1" (24-28ild dunlop (from foamorder) for a comfort layer to give me some of the missing comfort/softness, but also keep it firm enough to keep my hips up.

Then, I read one if your posts (Latex toppers for lightweight and curvy) and am now reconsidering. I know everybody is different and that it takes experimentation. I’m in board with that.

But, I am now questioning my planned next step. Mostly, after reading a bit about the relationship between thickness and softness, I’m wondering if I should start with a 2" slab instead of a 1". I thought that a 1" might be a safer choice, becasue I could always add on, but now I’m not sure. It sounds like combining 1" layers is maybe not the best idea. The one thing I know I don’t want to do is let my hips sink again so a 2" kind of worries me.

Maybe I should just sleep for a bit on the 30ild over the base to see how it goes and then take it from there, but I was just wondering if my thinking is right on this one…

Any thoughts, as always, would be much appreciated.

By the way, I have 3 more nights before having to return one of the toppers…

24

Hi kate,

I think that you had already tried this previously. I would keep in mind that the upper layers of a mattress are supposed to “allow” your hips or other pressure points to sink in to provide better pressure relief and secondary support that can fill in the gaps in your sleeping profile. The deeper layers are the ones that are supposed to “stop” your hips from sinking in too far (not the top layers). If you have only 2" of soft latex on top of the mattress then the firm polyfoam layer may not be “allowing” your hips to sink in enough to provide suitable pressure relief and secondary support.

Lower back pain usually indicates that the upper layers are too thick and/or soft (although with your body type this would be somewhat unusual). It’s also possible that the 30 ILD is too firm for you and isn’t “allowing” your hips to sink in enough (similar to having just the 20 ILD on top of your firm polyfoam) although this is less likely.

[quote]I was pretty well set on returning the 2" soft and sticking with the medium as that seems to best address my primary concern - lower back pain. (I can only return one). It also seems a better place to “build from”. I was also pretty set on ordering a 1" (24-28ild dunlop (from foamorder) for a comfort layer to give me some of the missing comfort/softness, but also keep it firm enough to keep my hips up.

Maybe I should just sleep for a bit on the 30ild over the base to see how it goes and then take it from there, but I was just wondering if my thinking is right on this one…[/quote]

I haven’t seen any feedback from you related to sleeping on just the 2" 30 ILD Dunlop layer on top of your polyfoam base so I really don’t have a frame of reference about how it compares to the other combinations you’ve tried but this seems like a reasonable plan. Once you’ve spent some time sleeping on just the 30 ILD topper on your polyfoam base then you would be able to use your sleeping experience as a reference point to help you decide whether you need any additional softness, pressure relief, and secondary support and how any “symptoms” you experience compare to the other combinations you’ve tried and help you decide on the thickness and firmness of any additional layers that would have the best chance of success.

Since you’ve already tried the 30 ILD and 20 ILD combination and based on your “symptoms” it seems like it could be too soft for you it would probably make more sense to keep just the 30 ILD for now and then perhaps add a layer on top of it that is thinner than the 2" 20 ILD layer that you’ve tried if you need additional softness.

It may also be worthwhile experimenting with the convoluted toppers you have on top of the 30 ILD (but only after you’ve slept on the 30 ILD by itself for long enough to identify any consistent patterns in your experience).

This is what I call a “bottom up” approach (see post #2 here) and allows you to use your experience on each “firmer” combination to help you decide on how much additional softness to add to it using smaller incremental steps until you have the “best possible” combination.

Phoenix