I think that everything you have been saying has started to make sense. I feel like a bit of a dolt, but I really get now what you’ve been saying about PPP. My situation is more complex than I initially thought!!! Not only am I transitioning from sleeping on memory foam to latex, I’m also getting used to sleeping “flat” without a wedge under my upper back. Add to that my latest revelation: I carry most of my weight (130lbs) in wide hips and bigger thighs. So what I thought was a comfort layer not being deep enough to meet my lumber seems to actually be a lack of adequate support. It seems that my pelvis/hips/thighs are sinking in deeper than my top half!
The 20ild Dunlop (2") is coming close to holding my bottom half up but I think (emphasize think) I could use a touch more support under that part of my body.
So here’s what I’m wondering. Do you think I can work with my 20ild Dunlop 2"? What might I add to give me that little extra support I need in the lower parts? Or, I’m thinking that maybe I should exchange the soft and try out a medium Dunlop (30ild) to act as a transition layer and then add a comfort layer on top. (By the way, the 20ild is fine for side sleeping right now - no issues. It only hurts my lower back when I lay on my back).
Any thoughts, as usual, would be much appreciated. Next time, I’m just going to buy a bed!!!
I really don’t know what I can add to my comments in my previous replies and I really can’t predict what will work for you or what won’t when there are so many complexities involved and you are “outside the averages” that would work for most people. The only way to know whether any combination will work for you for certain will be based on your own personal experience.
I’ve been making progress! I think I may be getting closer to what is going to work and would really appreciate your thoughts. After testing various combinations, I came to believe that my 2" 20ild Dunlop (on top of a 6" firm polyfoam base layer) was not holding my hips up. Right or wrong, I thought I would try a 2" 30ild topper as well to see if it made a difference.
First I tried the 2" 20ild on top of the 2" 30ild on top of the base. It feel very comfy, cradling and REALLY nice for side sleeping. But when I found myself on my back for more than a few hours I would wake up in lower back pain.
Taking a page from your play book, I switched the 2" top layers. This feels better on my lower back, my hips are sinking less and i generally wake up with less intense pain, but I find myself tossing and turning and missing some of the softness.
I was pretty well set on returning the 2" soft and sticking with the medium as that seems to best address my primary concern - lower back pain. (I can only return one). It also seems a better place to “build from”. I was also pretty set on ordering a 1" (24-28ild dunlop (from foamorder) for a comfort layer to give me some of the missing comfort/softness, but also keep it firm enough to keep my hips up.
Then, I read one if your posts (Latex toppers for lightweight and curvy) and am now reconsidering. I know everybody is different and that it takes experimentation. I’m in board with that.
But, I am now questioning my planned next step. Mostly, after reading a bit about the relationship between thickness and softness, I’m wondering if I should start with a 2" slab instead of a 1". I thought that a 1" might be a safer choice, becasue I could always add on, but now I’m not sure. It sounds like combining 1" layers is maybe not the best idea. The one thing I know I don’t want to do is let my hips sink again so a 2" kind of worries me.
Maybe I should just sleep for a bit on the 30ild over the base to see how it goes and then take it from there, but I was just wondering if my thinking is right on this one…
Any thoughts, as always, would be much appreciated.
By the way, I have 3 more nights before having to return one of the toppers…
I think that you had already tried this previously. I would keep in mind that the upper layers of a mattress are supposed to “allow” your hips or other pressure points to sink in to provide better pressure relief and secondary support that can fill in the gaps in your sleeping profile. The deeper layers are the ones that are supposed to “stop” your hips from sinking in too far (not the top layers). If you have only 2" of soft latex on top of the mattress then the firm polyfoam layer may not be “allowing” your hips to sink in enough to provide suitable pressure relief and secondary support.
Lower back pain usually indicates that the upper layers are too thick and/or soft (although with your body type this would be somewhat unusual). It’s also possible that the 30 ILD is too firm for you and isn’t “allowing” your hips to sink in enough (similar to having just the 20 ILD on top of your firm polyfoam) although this is less likely.
[quote]I was pretty well set on returning the 2" soft and sticking with the medium as that seems to best address my primary concern - lower back pain. (I can only return one). It also seems a better place to “build from”. I was also pretty set on ordering a 1" (24-28ild dunlop (from foamorder) for a comfort layer to give me some of the missing comfort/softness, but also keep it firm enough to keep my hips up.
Maybe I should just sleep for a bit on the 30ild over the base to see how it goes and then take it from there, but I was just wondering if my thinking is right on this one…[/quote]
I haven’t seen any feedback from you related to sleeping on just the 2" 30 ILD Dunlop layer on top of your polyfoam base so I really don’t have a frame of reference about how it compares to the other combinations you’ve tried but this seems like a reasonable plan. Once you’ve spent some time sleeping on just the 30 ILD topper on your polyfoam base then you would be able to use your sleeping experience as a reference point to help you decide whether you need any additional softness, pressure relief, and secondary support and how any “symptoms” you experience compare to the other combinations you’ve tried and help you decide on the thickness and firmness of any additional layers that would have the best chance of success.
Since you’ve already tried the 30 ILD and 20 ILD combination and based on your “symptoms” it seems like it could be too soft for you it would probably make more sense to keep just the 30 ILD for now and then perhaps add a layer on top of it that is thinner than the 2" 20 ILD layer that you’ve tried if you need additional softness.
It may also be worthwhile experimenting with the convoluted toppers you have on top of the 30 ILD (but only after you’ve slept on the 30 ILD by itself for long enough to identify any consistent patterns in your experience).
This is what I call a “bottom up” approach (see post #2 here) and allows you to use your experience on each “firmer” combination to help you decide on how much additional softness to add to it using smaller incremental steps until you have the “best possible” combination.
Thanks a lot Phoenix. I am definitely going to try the medium on top of the base to see how it goes.
I’m not sure I got what you meant though about the comfort layers. The wording just confused me a bit. Are you saying that it is unlikely that the comfort layers are too soft and/or thick? That what may be causing my pain is that they are not soft/thick enough?
It feels counter intuitive to me, but if that’s the case I can try adding the 2 eggcrate toppers on top of the soft (which will be on top of the medium, etc) to see if that helps…
I’m curious too, if that is the case, why do many recommend a more medium-med/firm surface for back sleepers?
The most common cause for lower back pain is a mattress that is too soft (either has comfort layers that that have too much thickness/softness or a support core that is too soft and is “allowing” your hips/pelvis to sink down too deeply into the mattress) but this certainly isn’t the only cause for lower back pain and a mattress that is too firm also wouldn’t provide good support for the more recessed parts of your body (such as the waist or the small of the back) and can cause lower back pain and discomfort as well. A more extreme example of this would be sleeping on the floor which could certainly cause lower back pain for most people (and pressure points as well). Unfortunately you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there is no way for me to know for certain which one would be the reason in your case outside of your own personal experience and comparisons with different combinations.
I would only try this after you have spent “enough” time on the polyfoam in combination with the 30 ILD topper.
The “recommendation” you are referring to is only a very general suggestion and is for a “medium firm” mattress … not necessarily medium firm top layers. Most medium firm mattresses have softer layers on top of a firmer support core and the firmness rating is the result of all the materials and components “as a whole” … not a specific layer.
I would keep in mind that there are also no “standard” definitions or consensus of opinions for firmness ratings and different manufacturers can rate their mattresses very differently than others so a mattress that one manufacturer rates as being a specific firmness could be rated very differently by another manufacturer. Different people can also have very different perceptions of firmness and softness compared to others as well and a mattress that feels firm for one person can feel like “medium” for someone else or even “soft” for someone else (or vice versa) depending on their body type, sleeping style, physiology, their frame of reference based on what they are used to, and their individual sensitivity and perceptions. There are also different types of firmness and softness that different people may be sensitive to that can affect how they “rate” a mattress as well (see post #15 here) so different people can also have very different opinions on how two mattresses compare in terms of firmness and and some people may rate one mattress as being firmer than another and someone else may rate them the other way around. This is all relative and very subjective and is as much an art as a science.
“Support” is often misunderstood and many people believe incorrectly that “firmer is better” or “more supportive” when the real goal of a “supportive” mattress is to keep the spine and joints in good alignment and this requires the type of contouring support that allows some parts of the body to sink in more (softer) and some parts of the body to sink in less (firmer) and this will vary on an individual basis. There is more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between “support/alignment” and “comfort/pressure relief” and “feel” and how they interact together.
Okay, thanks Phoenix. I am committed to figuring this out and I want to be as slow and thoughtful as possible, so I really truly appreciate your help and guidance. Of course, at the same time, I want to sleep well too, so I feel anxious to find a good combination. I did sleep on the 30ild over the polyfoam last night (or until about 3am when I had to move to the couch).
It was firm, and it was rough on the lower back. Sleeping on my side was better, but I do have some slight “back of the shoulder” soreness this morning.
I’m so surprised and honestly just really confused and tired. Every time I think I know the answer, or the best next step, it turns out not to work. I feel like I’m making lots of incorrect assumptions - no matter how many posts I read or how much I try to educate myself. I just have no idea what to do next. I guess I’ll know more after a couple more nights but I’m constantly trying to figure out if I should go for a thicker comfort layer than the 2" soft I tried, or whether it was not thick enough - not allowing my hips to sink in? Or was it too thick/soft, not giving me enough support under my back? How the heck can anyone ever figure this out?! A little bit of knowledge can more be harmful than none I think!
I will do my best to sleep on this for 2-3 more nights so that I can give a good report. At that time I will report on all the combos I tried plus reiterate sleeping preferneces, body tyoes, etc. I’m fearful that I may have unintentionally given you inaccurate info in the past so i want to make sure we are working with the same info.
In the meantime I have to return the soft.
Thank goodness my husband is rolling with this! I’m grateful to both of you and I will let you know how it goes!
I would try and sleep on the combination you are using for long enough that your “symptoms” are showing a consistent pattern and it’s clear how it compares to the other layer combinations you’ve tried. The actual differences in your experiences on each combination and how (and how much) your “symptoms” changed (got worse or got better) with each combination relative to the others you have tried are more important than just knowing whether a combination either “worked” or “didn’t work” and the changes in your experience between different combinations is the information that can help “point to” the “best possible” combination of layers and the type of changes that may work best for you.
So here’s a mind bender…I woke this morning wondering if I’m getting TOO MUCH support in my lumbar. That led me to a post of yours that discussed this very issue (“need some feedback/help here”) - the idea that the Latex is distributing the weight more evenly and asking the more recessed parts of my body to bear some weight when they haven’t before. It was like my experiebce was finally put into words!
So I began to wonder if, becasue Dunlop has a higher support than Talalay, that maybe it might be a better choice for a comfort layer (for me and my situation). I was thinking that maybe it would feel “less supportive”. But then, I remembered that Talalay also has more resilience. So maybe my idea wasn’t that great. I’m curious what your thougts are. Regardless, I’m going to chill and give the Latex and my body a chance to adjust. In regard to this question, I’m just more curious than anything else.
I would keep in mind that support is the “means” but alignment is the goal. One of my previous replies also includes this which talks about the relationship between support and pressure relief and feel …
Just to give you an example … if you were to sleep on the floor on your side then there would be “too much” support under your hips and shoulders and “too little” support under your lumbar so your lumbar would probably sag towards the floor and your spine would be out of alignment. You would probably also experience pressure points on both of them as well.
If on the other hand (to exaggerate a little) you were to sleep on your back on a log where the log was sideways under the small of your back and there was no support under your upper or lower body then there would be “too much” support (and pressure) under the small of your back and too little support under your upper and lower body and your lumbar spine would be hyperextended and would also be out of alignment (and you would probably experience too much pressure there as well).
When I first slept on a latex mattress I was one of those that noticed a somewhat “odd” sensation that I could “feel” that the latex was providing more support in my waist (on my side) and the small of my back (on my back) which I wasn’t used to but I had no specific “symptoms” other than the “odd” sensation and it was something that was just part of adjusting to the “feel” of latex.
Dunlop isn’t necessarily “more supportive” than Talalay because it would depend on the firmness levels you are comparing. Dunlop and Talalay both come in a wide range of firmness levels so one can be firmer than the other (or vice versa) although it’s true that if both of them are the same ILD (and the ILD is measured in the same way) then Dunlop would tend to “feel” firmer because it has a higher compression modulus than Talalay (it gets firmer faster as you sink into it more deeply).
Resilience means “springiness” and isn’t related to firmness or support. It’s more about the “feel” of a material.
Unfortunately each person is unique and there are too many unknowns, variables, complexities and personal preferences involved to guess at the combination of layers that you will do best with based on “theory at a distance” or “specs” (either yours or a mattress) so you will need to rely on your own personal experiences and to some degree trial and error to know which combination of layers and materials you will do best on.
I would also avoid tending to speculate about the “theory” and focus more on what your body is telling you.
Making more “educated guesses” about layering combinations or changes that may work for you is really a process of “differential diagnosis” that relies on using probabilities and some trial and error in combination with your feedback and assessing how your actual symptoms change and either get “better or worse” with each layer combination you try.
To use a simple example … if you were sleeping on a mattress that uses 4" of softer materials in the comfort layer on top of a firm support core and you were experiencing consistent lower back pain and then you tried the same base layer with only 2" of softer materials and your lower back pain went away away then it would “point to” the probability that the 4" of latex was too soft and thick.
If the 2" was working for your lower back pain but you were now experiencing pressure points then it would “point to” the probability that 2" wasn’t thick enough enough and that you may do better with 3" which would probably be the next layer combination you would try. The “hope” and the “theory” you would be testing would be that 3" was thick enough to relieve pressure but not so thick and soft that it would lead to lower back pain.
In other words … everything depends on assessing how your symptoms and sleeping experience changes between different combinations (once your symptoms on each combination have stabilized) and then using probabilities and some trial and error to make some “educated guesses” about which combination would be the next one that would be worth trying (using the materials and layers that you have available). Then you would assess how your symptoms and experience on the next layering combination changed relative to the other two to make another “educated guess” about the next layering combination that you are guessing would have the best chance of success.
Of course in “real life” things can be much more complex and not as “clean cut” as this very simple example and the results of each combination may not be completely clear and sometimes feedback and changes in your sleeping experience can be somewhat contradictory. You may sometimes need to try a combination that you don’t think would have a high chance of success just to “rule out” a possibility or test a “theory” that you want to either confirm or rule out as a possible reason for your experience.
The most effective approach is making smaller and more “incremental” and “one step at a time” changes to learn as much as possible about how each change affects you relative to the other combinations you have tried before trying to guess the next combination that would be worthwhile testing.
Thanks Phoenix. Just curious as to your thoughts. I think it’s also important to remember that many people (including me) don’t have the time or the money to buy several layers and try various combinations for weeks at a time (because of return policies). That’s why I try to learn as much as possible, and have to rely on theory - because I don’t have much room for error and the only thing that I have to base my next decision on is the theory. Thanks for your help and time.
I completely understand which is why a good return policy can be so important and why I would focus first on “learning” as much as possible about different combinations that use the materials that you already have available on hand … even if they aren’t “perfect” so that what you do end up purchasing has a better chance of success.
This is also why feedback on how the different combinations compare and how your symptoms and experience “change” on each combination that is as detailed and specific as possible is also important.
Unfortunately trial and error is an unavoidable part of the inherent risk with DIY constructions.
I have often wished that there was an algorithm where you could just input different specs for a person and different materials that would result in a “perfect” combination or that I had a crystal ball that could predict how different layering combinations would work for different people but unfortunately they just don’t exist.
Trying to “diagnose” mattress issues or symptoms on a forum is somewhat similar to a doctor trying to “diagnose” a medical condition on a forum with very limited information and only more generic descriptions of symptoms that can could come from many different causes and without being able to talk with them and examine them in person or do any testing that can help identify the most likely cause for the “symptoms” they are experiencing.
I’ve been able to take your advice and try a couple of the things you suggested. I did spend more time on two combinations:
Base, 2" 20ild Dunlop, 2" 30ild Dunlop
Base, 2" 30ild Dunlop
Neither made substantial difference in my morning lower back pain, so as far as symptom management goes, it hasn’t been particularly successful. I have noticed a couple of other things though. First, putting the 30ild on top seems to hold my hips up and prevent them from sinking in as much as the soft. Second, I did wake up one morning with a knot in my upper left back, but I wonder if that’s maybe my pillow. Third, in paying more attention to my sleeping positions, I notice that when I’m on my side I tend to twist and not lay completely straight (vertically). Fourth, laying on my back when I get into bed is quite comfortable - it’s at about 4am that it starts to hurt to lay on my back. Sometimes my side too but mostly my back.
All of that being said, I’m coming to believe that this is actually an issue with my body (muscle tightness maybe?) that a mattress is only going to be able to help “heal” not completely resolve. Its worth noting that when I slept on the base, 2" of memory foam and a wedge under my back, that it didn’t hurt my back as much. I’m thinking that’s because it “rounded out” my lower back and prevented me from having to stretch my muscles as much.
So, this week I’m going to a local shop that you recommended, Im so excited to have finally found them. They can make a wide, wide range of toppers but they may or may not have all the options there for me to test. I want to make the best choice (as usual :)) I don’t want to get stuck too much in the theory, I am open to trying something different than what I THINK will work, but I also want to know your thoughts on what the least risky choice would be - considering my size, sleeping preferences and current pain issues. I’m thinking a 2" 24 or 28 but I am very interested in your specific thoughts too. Maybe I should start with a 1"?
Best case scenario, my body will heal and adjust over time. I want to have a mattress that will give my body the best shot at that.
It’s also worth mentioning that I tried a couple of different toppers at another local store. Both were 3", one was 24, the other 28. Again, the 28 felt like it held my hips more so I preferred it. Funnily enough, on the 24 I felt like I had to press my upper back down and raise my hips to feel straight. One thing I’ve been wondering is if it’s better to go softer to allow my upper back/shoulders to get as low as my pelvis. My concern with that is that you often mention that thinner and firmer is better for back sleepers.
Sorry for the lengthy note. I think this next step will by my last best attempt. Thanks again for all of your help and guidance. It’s been invaluable. I’m looking forward to your thoughts…
That’s certainly possible. When you are experiencing the type of issues that you are experiencing and are “outside the averages” that would be suitable for most people … it may be a complex combination of factors that could be the cause for your experience including your physiology or flexibility or any pre existing health conditions outside of just the mattress itself. A mattress certainly won’t cure a health or physical condition so it may be a matter of choosing the “best possible” mattress rather than a “perfect mattress”.
I really don’t know what I can add to my comments in my previous replies and unfortunately there is no way for me to predict which combination of materials or layers will have the best chance of success based on “theory at a distance” or “specs” (either yours or a mattress) when there are so many complexities and possible causes involved and you are “outside the averages” that would work well for most people. The only way to know which combination of materials and components will work best for you for certain will be based on your own careful testing or your own personal experience.
Okay, thanks for all of the time and energy you have taken trying to help me and others. It was particularly helpful to find your website in the beginning of this process. I’m sure I would have spent thousands (that I don’t have) without your advice and guidance. Now that I’m further along, I do wish that you could just tell me what to do, but I know you can’t. If I had a stack of Bibles I would swear on them that I won’t ask anymore questions. Peace, and thanks again!
Hi Phoenix! Well, so much for the stack of bibles! BUT, you’ll be happy to know that I have made progress I tried a 2" 28ILD Talalay topper for a couple weeks but thought it was too firm so I exchanged it for a 24ILD. After several days on that I’m again feeling like I might want something a bit less firm. I’d really like that “Ahhh” feeling when I get into bed and I’m much closer, but not quite there yet. So here’s my dilemma. Based on all that I’ve read in your mattress forum, I’ve learned that thickness also plays a large role in how a mattress/topper feels. If it still feel too firm after giving it a bit more time, would it be more advisable to exchange my 2" 24 Ild for another 2" softer ILD, or should I add another inch to my current 2" setup? As usual, thanks for any guidance you can offer…
You didn’t mention any “symptoms” you experienced on either layer or whether you are using single layers on top of your polyfoam core or combinations of layers but there really isn’t much I can add to my extensive comments in my other replies in this topic which have already covered every possibility I can think of.
I would keep in mind that you can’t “feel” a mattress when you are sleeping and I would assess the success of a layering combination based on the actual “symptoms” you experience (or preferably the lack of them) rather than the more subjective “feel” of a mattress/topper combination or whether it has an “ahhh” feeling.
The first priority is alignment (which is generally connected to lower back pain). The second priority is pressure relief and the goal here is “just enough” thickness and softness to relieve pressure points with the least possible risk to alignment. The last and least important priority is how a mattress “feels” or an “ahhh” feeling when you first lie on it when you are going to sleep at night. What you need is more important than what you prefer so I would first deal with your needs and “symptoms” and then with any preferences that still meet your needs.
This would be similar to choosing food. Some of the food that leads to an “Ahhh” or a “wow” feeling may not be healthy for someone that “likes” the taste of sugar for example and may lack the nutrients that are needed to keep them healthy. The most important priority would be to eat what you “need” which is more important that what you may “like” and then try and make some modifications to what you “need” so that as much as possible you can have both of them together to some degree. If you have to choose between them then your “needs” will always be a more important priority than your “preferences”. In many cases if people focus on what they “need” then over time they will often come to “like” it because it helps them feel better.
With your body weight it certainly wouldn’t be unreasonable to try a softer Talalay topper yet (say 19 ILD) either by itself or in a combination on top of another layer
So sorry! I forgot to mention that my back pain has been very significantly reduced and is even absent some mornings. I’m just looking to add that “touch” of comfort that you have mentioned in several posts and was wondering what your recommendation is as to how best achieve that in my circumstance. It is a 6" hd polyfoam firm core, topped by 2" 30ild Dunlop, topped by a 2" 24ild talalay. I dont know whether to add exrra thickness or lower the ild. I’ve seen that you’ve made recommendations for others and was hoping you could do the same for me.
I don’t generally make specific suggestions or recommendation because I can’t feel what you feel or see you sleeping on your “sleeping system” although there have been a few cases where a member’s specific feedback does seem to “point to” a choice that would be less risky than another alternative that makes “guessing” a little bit easier.
If your back pain has been significantly reduced I would hesitate to “mess with success” and I would probably sleep on what you have for as long as possible to see whether the break in and adjustment period over the course of a month or so makes any difference (see post #3 here).
If you are willing to take the risk of changing a combination that seems to be working fairly well then given your weight it would be a reasonable “guess” to try a Talalay topper that was just a little bit softer (perhaps an ILD in the high teens) in the same thickness.
Thanks Phoenix. I plan to sleep on it for the full 30 days, I just wanted to know whether to go “thicker” or “softer” if I do feel like a change needs to be made. Very helpful to know which direction to go in if necessary.
I’m curious what your thougts are. Regardless, I’m going to chill and give the Latex and my body a chance to adjust. In regard to this question, I’m just more curious than anything else. 