Latex conundrum

Hi Nancie,

The materials in this two sided latex hybrid appear to be good quality but I would want to know the quality (density) of the polyfoam used in the base layer. Of course it would also be important to make sure that any mattress is suitable in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) because no matter what the quality or value of a mattress if you can’t sleep on it then it would have little value to you. Just in case you haven’t read it yet … post #1 here has all the basic information you will need to make the best possible choices both in terms of suitability and in terms of quality and value.

The “aqua gel” is probably a name for gel memory foam but it’s always important to make sure you know both the type and quality of every layer or component in any mattress you are considering. Foam materials will either be polyfoam, memory foam (including gel memory foam) or latex although there may be hundreds of “proprietary names” or variations for each of them. With polyfoam and memory foam … density is the most important factor in its durability. with latex … the type and blend of the latex is the information you need (although almost all latex is a high quality and durable material).

This is “all latex” instead of a latex/polyfoam hybrid and since latex is a more costly material than polyfoam this will be reflected in the price. Once again though your own careful and objective testing will determine how suitable the mattress is for your needs and preferences. ILD or IFD (the firmness/softness of a foam material) is a “comfort spec” and not a 'quality spec" and is really not important information when you are testing mattresses locally because your body and your testing will tell you all you need to know about PPP.

The biggest issue wth a pillow top is not the pillowtop construction itself but the quality and durability of the materials in the pillowtop. The “weak link” of any mattress is almost always the quality of the materials in the top layers and if you have good quality materials in a pillowtop then it can be a very durable mattress. The problem is that most pillowtops (and most mainstream mattresses that aren’t pillowtops as well) is that they use too much lower density polyfoam in the upper layers which can soften and break down much too quickly.

Only your own testing or experience can tell you whether a mattress is suitable for your specific body type and sleeping positions (see post #2 here). Every person can be different even if they have a similar body type and sleeping positions. Your own careful and objective testing (following the testing guidelines) is the most effective way to know if a mattress is suitable for you regardless of how suitable it may be for anyone else or based on any “theory at a distance”.

While latex is the most durable type of foam … any mattress that is two sided will last longer than a similar mattress that is one sided. The tradeoff is that a one sided design is more limited because too much soft foam on the bottom of a mattress can affect support and alignment. A one sided mattress can put the firmest layer on the bottom and then use more progressively firmer layers of foam on top of the support layer which gives more design flexibility to create a wider range of comfort, support, and “feels” because the softer layers on top aren’t part of the bottom support layers of the mattress.

You certainly have some very good options in the Montreal area and a forum search on “Montreal” (you can just click this) will bring up more feedback as well.:slight_smile:

Phoenix

Thanks Phoenix. I have to say, this site has been so helpful. I was thrilled to find the manufacturer names to check out-another trip to Dormez-Vous was going to send me to the nuthouse. We went back and tried the all latex again and both felt it was the right choice. I particularly liked the way my shoulder pressure was relieved with the comfort layer. We were a little unsure about going with the 28 or 36 IDA topper…decided on the softer option knowing if it doesn’t feel right after a few weeks we can switch it. One felt a little better lying on my back(firmer) and the other on my side.(softer) But we both felt this bed was relieving a lot of pressure points. It was a VERY significant investment so I hope we love it! And hopefully it will be a long, long time before we need to buy another bed.

Thanks to the mattressunderground-we would never have found such great alternatives to retailers or so much great information to inform ourselves. We were armed with many questions!

Pleasant dreams.
NJ

Hi Nancie,

I think this was probably wise because 36 ILD would be too firm for most people … especially if they spend time on their sides.

It’s great to see you did some good research and ended up making a good choice that is much better quality/value than anything you could have purchased at Dormez-Vous.

It’s also quite likely that with your research you know more meaningful information about mattresses than most of the salespeople at Dormez-Vous as well!

Most of all … congratulations on your new mattress and I’m looking forward to hearing your feedback once you’ve had the chance to sleep on it :slight_smile:

Phoenix

Thanks Phoenix-gives me a little more confidence that we bought the right firmness. Actually, we are just starting to think we should have considered King size… But honestly, I forgot to even try to lift the mattress. I am thinking a 11`" latex mattress is going to be pretty heavy! I searched around but couldn’t find any info on this… Am i correct in assuming it will be a task to rotate a king laytex in this model?

I should mention…we bought the box springs to go with this mattress that will sit on metal rails. AS we don’t have a bed, we assumed this would ensure we have the correct support for the mattress. With the weight of the latex am am I correct in assuming we could not just plop it onto any bedframe? (I kind of overlooked this part in the hunt for the mattress.)

thanks
NJ

Hi Nancie,

Yes … latex is a heavy material and also very “floppy” but it’s generally no problem to rotate a mattress or for two people to flip a two sided latex mattress but it’s certainly a little more difficult than a lighter innerspring or traditional mattress which is generally lighter and “stiffer”. Of course if there is a polyfoam core in your mattress it will be lighter than if it was all latex.

This depends on what you mean by a bedframe. If you mean a metal bedframe frame along the lines of the ones mentioned in post #10 here that are designed designed to support a foundation or box spring then as long as it meets the warranty requirements of the mattress manufacturer you will be fine.

If you mean a wooden bedframe (like some of these) then if you are using a foundation or boxspring then there would need to be strong enough support to hold the foundation/boxspring with a center rail and support to the floor (typically 5 cross slats and a center rail) or you are putting a latex mattress directly on wooden slats in the bedframe then it would be best to make sure the slats were no more then 3" apart.

Phoenix

Well there was a little trouble in paradise this weekend. Our bed arrived on Saturday and happily, the King fit perfectly. We previously had a queen so weren’t sure, but the 4" boxsprings made a big difference in terms of how big the bed “appeared.” So-the look was great. But then I lay down…and the feel was nothing like my body remembered. It was firmer. I was quite aware of the sinking in feeling we had felt in the showroom-especially my hip and shoulder. Something was not right.

We called the showroom and told our salesman. He couldn’t imagine what was wrong…he would check the order. We decided to go right back to the showroom and lie down on the bed we had chosen to make sure. I also unzipperd our topper and squeezed the latex to get a fee for it. When we arrived there was no question, the be in the showroom was softer. (Both lying on it and unzipping and squeezing it directly. ) But the other half of the matress, which was supposed to be a 36, also felt harder than what had been delivered. (teh store demo was split) Our sales associates told us his boss had commented for us to “remember that the bed we tried had been in the show room with a lot of people trying it.” Honestly, this gave me no peace of mind buying a $2700 top of line bed…

After unzipping the topper and checking for codes, it would seem that what we had been lying on in the store was very likely a 19 ILD,(soft) not a 28 (semi firm)as we had been told. The bed we did all our testing on - from which we then did all our comparisons elsewhere, was supposed to have been half 36 and half 28. On our visits we would roll back and forth until we were quite sure we wanted the “semi firm.” Now it may very well be that we were trying a soft bed and a firm and what was actually delivered was something we had NEVER tried.

So, we were told by the associate that he would have to check with the manufacturing people when we was next in. That will be on Wednesday. In the meantime we are trying what was delivered, which we think is, in fact a 28 ILD.

This is really discouraging. We were so looking forward to feeling the bed we had decided on. I am finding the one we have a little hard on my hip-I have bursitis so this is a pressure point I am conscious of-and my shoulder still feels a little jammed. But now I am concerned we are going to have too “soft” mattress. My logical brain is saying you have a 44 extra firm 8" latex base…the topper is a comfort layer. Whatever way you go, the base is the support and that hasn’t changed. But it is now a little more stressful. We no longer have the side by side comparison.

Given this confusion, I am going to ask them to provide the correct topper-once they conclude what in fact it is we were lying on during those visits-and allow us to keep both of them while we compare. My partner had a very sore back after the first night…I have read there can be a few days of adjustment. I guess we won’t be able to figure out what’s right until we actually try what we thought we were buying…

If you have any advice for navigating this, I am all ears.

thanks
Nancie

Hi Nancie,

There is a period of a few week where a new mattress will break in as the foam layers lose some of their initial “false loft” and the covers stretch a bit and become less stiff and there is also an an adjustment period for most people as they get used to a new sleeping surface. The mattress in the showroom was probably also broken in so it would be normal that it would be softer if the ILD’s were the same as what you received.

The break in period and adjustment period isn’t usually dramatic though with latex and based on your description it sounds like there may be more going on. There are also some other possibilities that can affect the feel of a mattress that are mentioned in post #2 here (including your mattress protector or a mattress pad or even sheets and bedding in some cases). I would also keep in mind that many customers notice a difference between a new mattress and what they tested in a showroom so the first assumption of most stores is that what they are “feeling” is just the normal breakin or adjustment period.

Other than ruling these out though as possible causes for any difference between what you tested and what you received … I would do the same thing as you are doing which is confirming both what was in the mattress that you tested and what was in the mattress you received.

If I understand you correctly … your mattress has a 6" support core of 44 ILD latex and then you have a softer comfort layer (inside the mattress so it’s not a topper?) that is probably a 28 ILD but the showroom model you tested may have been 19 ILD. Is this correct?

If you checked the “codes” (and I’m assuming you mean the tag that is on the layer when you unzip the cover shows 19 ILD) then it should be no problem having them replace it with the firmness level that you wanted and tested as being most suitable once you know what it is (regardless of the ILD).

Does your mattress also have the tag on the layer that shows what its firmness is as well?

In any case … once you can confirm (with their help) what the ILD was that you tested and what you received then I would think that they should be more than willing to switch your comfort layer with the one you actually tested because that’s an option that you mentioned they offer anyway even if the ILD’s were correct.

Once you confirm the ILD’s of the showroom mattress and the one you received I would hope that the problem will be taken care of.

Your experience is unfortunate but hopefully they will help you take care of this quickly and your next post will be about how this was all resolved :slight_smile:

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix
Thanks for the info on the “break-in” period and what to expect. Good to know.

We got a call from the manufacturer today confirming our suspicions. The bed in the showroom that we purchased was supposedly an 8" 44 ILD with a separate 3" 28" ILD piece that you can zip in an out. They referred to this as a “topper”… Anyhow… The bed we received was indeed the same as this…but as I said, felt far too different-without sheets, pads etc, I knew something was not right.
Hi there.

So it was confirmed today that in fact, the bed in the showroom had a 3" 19 ILD on it-not a 28 as we were told. And we had been testing between this bed and a 36 ILD firm. So, what was delivered was something we actually never tried at all…which would explain why when I went elsewhere and tried more or less the same specs, they also didn’t feel similar. :S

But now they are saying they don’t use 3" 19 ILD anymore, they will be installing 4" 19 ILD… Looking at the zip enclosure and how tight it is, I am not sure how another inch is going to fit, but they must know so I am hoping for the best. Again though, we will now be trying another bed configuration we have never tried…and I am really not sure what difference 3 or 4 inches make in this regard - will we be sinking in more? I guess we will find out.

The bed will also unfortunately be another inch higher, which will effect how it looks and how the linens fit. (already a little short) But this can be corrected.

So…I have told them when they drop off the new piece, they are not taking the 28" one away until we have had time to try them side by side etc. It is a little discouraging that we were so thorough in our testing and now we will have had two beds, neither of which is what we based on decision. Although I am sure the 4" of 19 will feel closer to the mark. I do feel after all this we should be credited something for all the inconvenience…we’ll see.

Thanks again.
Nancie

Hi Nancie,

That certainly solves the mystery of why your mattress was firmer!

You will sink in a little more with 4" than you would with 3" of course but it will also be a little more compressed in a tighter cover so it would also be a little firmer than if the latex was in a cover that wasn’t as tight.

If your 4" topper doesn’t work as well for you as the 3" version you tested … you may also want to ask them if you could have the 3" topper that is in the showroom model at a discount (since it wouldn’t make sense for them to have it on the floor if they don’t supply it any longer). They probably increased the thickness because with 3" of 19 ILD and the amount of difference between that and the 44 some people may have “felt” the firmness of the support core a little more than they wanted to.

I’m glad you suggested that you keep both layers so you can compare them as well. Depending on weight … there are certainly some people who would prefer the 28 vs the 19 but with your chronic joint pain I would suspect that the 19 may work better for you. Of course your own experience is the real test.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix
Well the saga continues. The new topper was delivered tonight The bill indicates a 19" but the delivery guys, after hearing why we were switching commented that it wasn’t a 19" it was a 21". They proceeded to open the zippers and show us the 21" tag. Needless to say we are getting a little frustrated. I made the bed up tonight and we will give it a go-really hoping it will be fabulous and comfy but certainly disappointed at the continual misinformation and the fact that we spent such considerable time deciding on a particular bed that apparently doesn’t exists. We sent the 28" back as my partner has had a very sore back since we started sleeping on it and I know it was too hard for my hip/shoulder so no point doing a comparison.

Your idea about getting the showroom one at a discount doesn’t work as it is a king topper but split between 19" on one side and 36 on the other.

We love the look of the bed and the bamboo fabric…we are really hoping we take to this new comfort level. We were just ready to finally have the one we loved enough to spend a fortune on.

I will send an update after we have a fair time with this one…

best,
Nancie

Hi Nancie,

I can certainly understand your frustration but I think the good news may be that ILD isn’t exact anyway (there is a +/- variance of about 2 in either direction with Talalay and even more with Dunlop) and a difference of 2 ILD is below the limit of detection so it really wouldn’t make any difference.

There are also two different Talalay manufacturers and they may not make the exact same ILD’s. Latex International for example has a 19 ILD and a 24 ILD with their blended Talalay and there is nothing in between and their 100% natural Talalay doesn’t have an ILD rating at all (it’s rated for softness and firmness from N1 - N5 and each rating has an ILD range of about 5 ILD or more). Your layer may be from Radium which is probably the closest equivalent they have to 19 ILD.

Phoenix

Hi there,
I hear you and we are trying to just go with it-w/o numbers in our head. I think we are just frustrated as neither the bed we got or this one now delivered feel like what was in the showroom for our visits. This may end up being great. In the end, that is all we want, right?! A nice comfy bed. Here’s hoping! (And yes, It is supposedly “natural” Talalay latex.)

Almost bedtime… :cheer:
NJ

Hi Nancie,

That’s “exactly” right and when all is said and done that’s all that’s important in the end.

There is no question about the quality or durability of the materials in your mattress … and all that’s left is to make sure that it’s “right for you” in terms of PPP.

I hope you have a great sleep :slight_smile:

Phoenix

Hey Nancie, If you dont mind me asking, where did you buy the bed from?

Hi jay81k,

I’'m not Nancie of course but she may not see your post because she purchased her mattress about a hear and a half ago and last visited the forum well over a year ago but she bought her mattress from Literie Laurier.

Phoenix

Hi Jay81k and Phoenix
In fact, we returned our mattress to Laurier. Too mnay problems. We eneded up doing business with matelas Selection in Montreal and they were FANTASTIC. We have bought two from them. A pleasure to deal with. Hope that helps. NJ

Hi Nancie,
Thanks for your response… I actually ended up going with matelas personnel. Claude is just a great guy! My one concern is that I selected one that was too firm, but it felt pretty good to me, and I’m pretty sure too soft would not of suited my needs long term. Plus he reassured me that no matter what he will make sure I’m happy and readjust the mattress as needed… Wish I knew about matelas selection before hand as I would of love to compare. I’ll be receiving the mattress next week so hopefully all goes well. Reading all these nightmare stories on this forum have got me worried! :slight_smile:

Hi Nancie,

Thanks for returning to the forum and for letting us know about the outcome of your experiences … I appreciate it!

I was wondering at the time about the final outcome with your situation.

Congratulations on your new mattresses from Matelas Selection as well and I’m glad to hear that your experience there was much better :slight_smile:

Phoenix

Claude is a great guy. I spent quite some time speaking with him and I trust he will make it right. He just did not seem to have what we were after. At MS they actually put together a bed in the warehouse area for us to try and swapped out different densities of foam and laytex. It was a great way to feel the subtle differences.We ended up going a little too soft, but they came and picked up the mattress and had it back to us adjusted in 24 hours! Very impressive family owned business.

Sweet dreams.

N

That sounds like great service! I’m thinking maybe I should go try out my bed when it’s ready before they deliver it just to make sure it’s to my liking, although it’s very hard to tell without sleeping on it overnight. Thanks again for your help, much appreciated.