Latex for Less

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
8

Hi cbear08.

Welcome to our Mattress Forum! :slight_smile:

I moved your post and changed its title to something easier to find for those that are interested in in a similar subject.

The good news that you certainly got your money’s worth out of your mattress, but attempting to find something that is exactly the same is often a frustrating and futile exercise especially when trying to duplicate an old mattress for which you don’t know the componentry and specifications. Even if you somehow manage to find them you’ll still have to do a great deal of testing, research, and legwork. You can see more about the several ways that can be used to “approximate” or “match” a mattress to another one described in more detail in post #9 here
Every individual layer and component in a mattress (including the cover, FR barrier, any quilting material, and of course all foam layers) will affect the feel and response of every other layer and component both above and below it and the mattress “as a whole” so you would need to carefully asses the design and the specs of each mattress that uses exactly the same type of materials in order to determine if that the mattress in its entirety will be a good “match” for you in terms of “comfort”, firmness, and PPP(Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your Personal preferences) (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).

Most people have little idea about how difficult it may be to duplicate another mattress as it greatly depends on whether you are trying to duplicate just the “feel”, the design, the quality of materials, or all three. Post #2 here also has more about trying to duplicate another mattress. The limiting factors in success are the ability to get accurate information about the mattresses you had in the first place (so you know what materials you are duplicating) and your ability to find the exact same foam in the same thickness at various suppliers and your ability to also match any other design differences in the mattress (construction method, covers, quilting etc). Every difference between your mattress and what you are trying to duplicate can make a difference in how it feels and performs … sometimes in surprising ways for those that aren’t used to working with mattress materials, foams, and components.

The best you will hope for is to find something “in the range”, but realize that only your own careful personal testing or a detailed conversation with an experienced and knowledgeable manufacturer/retailer that has your best interests at heart will reveal whether or not the feel you are looking for is close to your needs and preferences.

Unfortunately …it would be almost impossible for anyone to figure out the exact specifications of the componentry within your old mattress going just by the description you provided of how the mattress feels to you because this is very subjective and only you can feel what you feel on this particular mattress and someone else may feel just the same on a totally different mattress that would be completely unsuitable to you. Although I do not recommend this in your situation, if you are trying to replicate this mattress or approximate its feel, perhaps you can look for a law tag that mentions the percentage by weight of any materials within the mattress and can specify what type of mattress this might be (Innerspring product, latex etc.) But at this point I think finding the exact specifications would mostly useless to you as within the 15 years that passed your body aged and changed some of its needs and also, of course, the mattress gradually changed before it broke down to the point that you are no longer sleeping well on this mattress. This is a long way to say that this would be very a complex situation with slim odds of success which introduces even more variables that you would have if you started from scratch. You would be probably better off by learning about getting quality componentry and trying to approximate the feel and comfort that works best for you.

I’m not sure what you’ve read since you found the site but just in case you haven’t read it yet … the first place to start your research is the mattress shopping tutorial here which includes all the basic information, steps, and guidelines that can help you make the best possible choice … and perhaps more importantly know how and why to avoid the worst ones.
Two of the most important links in the tutorial that I would especially make sure you’ve read are post #2 here which has more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (either locally or online) that is the best “match” for you in terms of “comfort”, firmness, and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for and post #13 here which has more about the most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase if your choice doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for).

While again nobody can speak to how any specific mattress will “feel” for someone else or whether it will be a good “match” in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP because this is too subjective and relative to different body types, sleeping positions, and individual preferences, sensitivities, and circumstances and you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress … outside of PPP (which is the most important part of “value”), the next most important part of the value of a mattress purchase is durability which is all about how long you will sleep well on a mattress. This is the part of your research that you can’t see or “feel” and assessing the durability and useful life of a mattress depends on knowing the specifics of its construction and the type and quality of the materials inside it regardless of the name of the manufacturer on the label or how a mattress feels in a showroom or when it is relatively new so I would always make sure that you find out the information listed here so you can compare the quality of the materials and components to the durability guidelines here to make sure there are no lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress that would be a cause for concern relative to the durability and useful life of a mattress before making any purchase.

Once you’ve had the chance to read through the iformation provided, feel free to post back and I or any of our Expert Members of the site will be glad to assist you.

Phoenix

9

Thank you for your prompt response and for creating a new topic!

I actually reached out to the one lead I had, which was that my old mattress might have been the brand Natural Responses, which used the same flower logo. The Natural Responses line was discontinued, but it was owned by King Koil. I reached out to King Koil, and they confirmed that had sold the Cloud Nine mattresses. When I asked the materials their response was:

“Hi, the Cloud Nine was not a 100% latex mattress. It probably had latex in it, but many of our models have latex and/or latex like materials. The Vienna Euro Top has iNergex (an energetic foam that is highly breathable, cool and responsive. This pressure relieving foam conforms like memory foam, but is highly resilient like latex, giving you the best performance of both foam technologies.) and Gel Response Latex (an intelligent eco-friendly combination of pressure relieving, breathable latex with gel beads to provide optimal sleeping surface temperature). It’s a very high end mattress set.”

That being said, I don’t know much about King Koil mattresses, and it feels like they are just trying to sell me a new mattress without really evaluating what I wanted in the mattress. I think I need to move on to a new mattress brand.

I have thoroughly read all of your helpful information. I think I have settled on the Winkbeds luxury firm, even though I have no real idea what it will feel like, because, as you pointed out, I have changed and gained a higher BMI since I was 13 :slight_smile: I think that my old mattress didn’t have springs, but I want to try the hybrid technology to get that extra support that I maybe didn’t have in my old bed. However, I am second guessing myself left and right so let me run this by you :slight_smile:

About my sleep style-- I sleep in all three positions, and most recently have started sleeping twisted (I know in the long term this is terrible for my back) because I’m unable to find a comfortable sleep position. I feel like this must be due to my mattress wearing out. When I sleep on my stomach, I wake up with lower back pain even when I try to add a pillow under me to take the strain off. When I sleep on my side I wake up with my arm asleep and with joint pain my in shoulder, and always end up sleeping on my back. When I sleep on my back I don’t feel like I am getting the proper amount of air flow (I snore…) and my back sometimes ends up hurting. So I now sleep on my side with my legs raised to my chest in a semi-fetal position, but then twist my arm behind me so I’m not sleeping on it and putting pressure. What is strange is that my bed had become much more plush than it originally was, so I wondered why my arm was having more pain when the mattress is softer than normal. This makes it difficult for me to determine which firmness to chose, but I am a BMI of 38 and read through your instructions that I need more comfort layers with a higher density (weight) material. This is why I am concerned about Winkbeds because the durability hasn’t been tested long term and the 1.5" layer of low weight polyfoam (which I have read the many posts about this particular problem in this particular mattress) might be the biggest problem. I also have discussed with Winkbeds my preferences ad nauseam and they feel pretty certain that the Plus mattress, which has a more durable latex instead of the polyfoam layer, would be too severely firm for me especially since I weigh less than 300lbs. I am concerned about the durability of the Luxury Firm, though.

When I began this journey, I had visited several stores and the only bed that came close to the comfort & support that I was looking for was Mattress Firm’s BeautyRest Legend Winward. It was also a luxury firm pillow top with layers of foam and then innersprings. I tried the BeautyRest Black hybrid, but I did not like the feel as much as the pillowtop feel of the Winward, and the firm version of the BeautyRest Legend (i forgot the name) was too hard for me and I had immediate shoulder pain when laying on it. However, when I read the reviews of Simmons Beautyrests in general they don’t tend to have the durability that I’m looking for with a BMI of 38.

I then went to The Original Mattress Factory to try their Latex mattress. It felt comfortable, but it also felt like something was missing. It was probably the closest thing I felt towards my old mattress, but I wasn’t crazy about it (which I can’t really explain other than it didn’t feel great to me… I’m sorry). Also, the mattress was less than 11" deep, and I know for a heavier person I need something more substantial.

Next a friend suggested that I need to try Sleep Number because he swears by it. I really did not find any of the mattresses comfortable except for their most expensive one, the i8 model. This was probably because it had the most layers of foam before the airbed underneath. The one thing that I found interesting is that in my “profile” they suggested that I need a much plusher mattress than luxury firm because of the pressure points on my hips and back. My sleep number was 45, but I did notice that my hips sank much further below the rest of my body, and I didn’t think I was supported well. However, their technology showed me that at 45 was when I first started to not show red spots in the area of my back on their body monitoring system, which is why she said I need to sleep on a softer mattress. Something about all of that didn’t feel right, but I couldn’t put my finger on it.

So that led me to either a Saatva Luxury Firm or the Winkbeds Luxury Firm from all of the reviews and information available. For Saatva, I was concerned at the large number of reviews that discussed how its foam prematurely broke down and had noticeable impressions-- all issues of durability. But that being said, that is also the issue I’m worried about with Winkbeds because of that low weight/quality foam layer.

I called Winkbeds and mentioned these issues, and they said that the Winkbeds mattress should not have impressions as long as I rotate it according to their guidelines of every two weeks for the first three months and then every two months after. They promised that the Winkbeds should not be an issue if I follow these instructions. Well, my issue with this is that I am a single woman and the bed weighs almost 100 lbs. I think rotating it often is going to be quite a challenge because of the weight, the lack of handles, and the fact that I have a footboard that makes it more difficult to rotate. Many of the reviews mention that the mattress if heavy to rotate. So, then, when I looked at Saatva they said that the mattress only needs to be rotated twice a year (but that doesn’t make sense… why would I rotate it less than the Winkbeds mattress?).

At this rate, I ordered the Winkbeds mattress a week and a half ago, and it still hasn’t even shipped yet. I am maybe over-thinking all of this, but I am second guessing myself and considering canceling the whole order and starting from scratch by looking at other mattresses.

I would so very much appreciate your help, input and thoughts.

Thank you!

**side note: I think I should mention that budget is not a huge issue for me. I don’t really want to spend more than 4k, but most mattresses that seem to work for people are closer to the 2k region. That being said— if a mattress is the best thing for me out there then I’m willing to spend more.

10

Actually, I just realized that the one Virginia mattress company that is a Mattress Underground Trusted Member is right near me in Norfolk, Va called Cozypure. I thought it was just another website company, but they have a physical store. Do you think any of their mattresses would work with a high BMI individual? What can you tell me about their mattresses?

Thank you again!

update: I went by Cozypure and did not realize that they only have one type of mattress and you can get it anywhere between 7-12 inches. I actually thought that all of the options (even the 12 inch) were a little too firm to me, which leads me to believe that I am in the right direction with pillow tops. I was a bit disappointed that when I asked questions the showroom attendant was not able to give me any additional information. I made it clear that I was plus sized and was concerned about durability and her response was “these mattresses won’t sag. and if they do it is covered under a warranty.” I then asked if I should only look at the 12" mattress because of my weight, and she said that it didn’t matter and was based on which I felt was the most comfortable. Lastly, I asked if she could explain a bit to me about Latex and the way it responds over time, particularly with a heavier person, and she said “the Latex will always feel exactly the way it does on your first night.” … maybe Latex just isn’t right for me? I have no idea at this point.

11

Hi cbear08.

You are welcome.

I am glad you went to CozyPure and checked out their mattresses, but they do have more options not only the one bed that you mentioned in different thickness. You may want to check out the 10" Luxury Hotel Collection that can be customized to comfort needs, and also the Organic Latex which has a similar design as the Natural Latex.

CozyPure’s Natural Latex Mattresses, which is what I guess you’ve tried is highly customizable to suit any comfort needs and you can choose not only different thicknesses but varying ILD for different comfort needs and even offers side to side customization. All their mattress have good quality and durable materials that would suit any BMI ranges. I am not sure what comfort combinations you tried but this bed is designed to satisfy most of the comfort needs including higher BMI ranges, but I understand that in having to accommodate combination sleeping (slide, stomach, and back) you might find it uncomfortable for some positions. I would also not make the assumption that a pillowtop is just connected with plushness comfort preferences, there are in fact pillowtops that are as hard as a rock. (“Pillowtop” is just a mattress design that has several inches of extra padding)

If you decide to go in the direction of a pillowtop I would make sure that the materials contained meet the minimum quality/durability specs that are suggested in the durability guidelines here for higher weight ranges. If the material used in a pillowtop or eurotop is a high-quality foam or microcoils, then the only important part of deciding on a thicker layer on top would be its suitability in terms of pressure relief and support. It is a little more difficult to get a thicker comfort layer “right” however if you have the pressure relief and alignment you need, then this too is a matter of preference. Most pillowtops and eurotops sold today unfortunately are made with either synthetic fibers which may compress and soft (and usually lower quality) polyurethane foam which may feel comfortable in the store but will likely soon be the source of body impressions and poor quality sleep so make sure you know what is in your pillowtop if you choose to go in that direction. I would avoid pillowtops and all “thick top” mattresses no matter what names they are given unless you know for sure that they contain high-quality materials that will not be the source of problems in a very short time.

The information they gave you about durability is accurate and I don’t see what can be added to it, latex will maintain its feel better than any other foams or materials, and they are also correct that even for higher BMI thickness is not the determining factor but suitability must be determined based not only on the initial feel when lying on the mattress but also on the way you sleep. I would point out that you have many variables that you must consider such as the 3 different sleeping positions, back pain when sleeping on the back and front along with higher BMI … all of this would point to a firmer configuration needed for neutral spinal alignment. It is possible however that you don’t like the feel of latex as you are quite fond of your old Cloud Nine which most likely contained some Memory Foam on top.

Having a high BMI presents special challenges and generally requires firmer materials (in the support layers especially). This could be firmer latex or innersprings (the type of support component would be a personal preference and in the right design either could be suitable) or even a zoned construction. The same overall guidelines apply with higher weights though that PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) along with using high-quality durable materials that will maintain their feel and performance for longer periods of time are the way to make the best choices. Heavier people, in general, will need firmer and thicker comfort layers and firmer support layers than those who are lighter and because no materials will last as long with much higher weights the quality and durability of the materials and components is even more important than normal. I wouldn’t “rule out” any types of mattress and base your choices on your own personal testing.Post #3 here has more information and suggestions about heavier weights that is worth reading.

I can’t predict what type of mattress or materials you might do best with via an online forum, as there are entirely too many personal variables involved. So I’m always happy to help the forum members here with “how” to choose, to act as a "fact check, or to help them find better manufacturers or retailers that have better quality and value but “what” to choose in terms of either a mattress or the balance between comfort/pressure relief and support/alignment that may be suitable for a specific person is always up to the only person who can feel what they feel on a mattress and best left to personal testing and your own experiences or more detailed discussions with the more knowledgeable people at the retailers or manufacturers that sell a mattress you are considering.

I will also add that in most cases … if you have a roughly equal choice between two firmness levels that it can often be “safer” to go with slightly firmer because you can always soften the upper layers and improve pressure relief and “comfort” by adding a mattress pad or a topper but it’s much more difficult to firm up the support of a mattress that is too soft (unless you can exchange a layer) because this involves removing or replacing layers or components that are too soft (instead of adding to them) which in most cases can be much more difficult to do.

Post #2 here also has more about the different ways to buy a suitable mattress (either locally or online) that is the best “match” for your body type, sleeping positions, and preferences that can help you assess and minimize the risks involved in each of them.

Phoenix

12

Thank you for your help, Phoenix.

I went by CozyPure again yesterday, and there was a much more helpful person there that gave me great explanations. I would like to point out that the Luxury Hotel collection is not a different mattress, but it’s the 10" Natural mattress with a LaNoodle topper and all of the natural sheets, pillows and comforter. The organic mattress, I was told, feels no different than the natural but it’s meant for people who care about the organic certification.

While i really love the idea, I stayed on the plushest mattress (the 12" with the LaNoodle topper) for 15 minutes and definitely still felt pressure pain on my hips and my lower back. When I asked Hans he said we can still try to customize the layers but he wouldn’t go to any other softer foams for my case bc he would be worried it might compromise the durability with my BMI. So, it sounds like that is the firmness I would need to stick with, and he said what I feel in the store will be what it feels like at home.

Maybe the Sleep Number lady was on to something that I actually need a plushier surface? I am still very confused because I am told that my BMI will require a firmer mattress, but thus far firmer mattresses make my hips/Lower back hurt. Do you have any other ideas on this?

Also, I wanted to check something with you. The specs for the Winkbeds seem to maybe have changed on their website:

6-Layer Hybrid spring/foam construction
– Cover made from Tencel and strech-nit fabric
– 1″ Hypersoft foam 1.5lb density 17 ILD
– 1″ Premium Gel foam 1.5lb density 17 ILD
– Foam encased 2.4″ innerspring micro air-spring coil (1353/queen)
– Lumbar pad made from pre-compressed densified cotton
– Foam encased individually wrapped pocket coils (858/queen)
– 2″ Support foam 1.5lb density 28 ILD

If we are assuming that these specs are in order of layers on the mattress, the, I am thinking that the 2" support foam 1.5lb density 28 ILD is the edge support. That means that they are within your suggested guidelines for the actual support layer on staying at 1" (because the edge support isn’t a layer, it’s the perimeter). Am I completely off?

Lastly, I am just not sure at this point what I should do. Should I start looking into Talalay Latex as it might be a little cushier to get that plush feel? In order to do that I will have to order online and there don’t tend to be trials with most of your approved Latex companies. I am concerned that maybe I’m just not a Latex person. Maybe I should just try the Winkbeds mattress and see if in the least I have a better idea for the feel I want? I went by The Original Mattress Factory again and their beds were all less than 12" in the hybrids, and didn’t feel as good as some of the ones I tried at Mattress Firm (even though I know that comfort feel is misleading and I wouldn’t buy from them).

I would really appreciate any more suggestions that you might be able to give!

Thank you

13

Hi cbear08.

I am glad that you visited CozyPure (twice) because local testing is the most reliable way to gain a reference point for how different specs and combinations feel and perform for you. I personally wouldn’t buy a mattress based on theoretical specs or what I call “theory at a distance” alone without doing some local testing first ….along with collecting some data about the specification of the designs(layering, densities) and the materials that you prefer. I understand your need for more plushness but Hans’s concerns are legitimate as a plusher configuration may compromise both durability and the deeper support you may need for posture and alignment for your BMI.

A plushier surface sometimes can actually feel harder especially with a higher BMI as you would tend to go through the softer comfort layer very quickly and feel the firmness of the next layer underneath. I would also be careful not to sacrifice the deep support needed to keep your spine in neutral alignment for the sake of a plusher feel. Having a high BMI presents special challenges and generally requires firmer materials (in the support layers especially). This could be firmer latex or innersprings (the type of support component would be a personal preference and in the right design either could be suitable) or even a zoned construction. The same overall guidelines apply with higher weights though that PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) along with using high quality durable materials that will maintain their feel and performance for longer periods of time are the way to make the best choices. Because no materials will last as long with much higher weights the quality and durability of the materials and components is even more important than normal. I wouldn’t “rule out” any types of mattress and base your choices on your own personal testing.Post #3 here has more information and suggestions about heavier weights that is worth reading.

When I replied to you last time I omitted to address your comments about the Sleep Number and their recommendation so I’ll make a few comments now. The job of the salesperson is to “sell” you on a certain mattress, and “being sold” is not what you want. Unless they were providing you information about the actual materials within the mattress and speaking specifically about the density and actual makeup of the materials as they relate to your specific needs and preferences, most of what you were told was more than likely regurgitation of marketing material with little meaningful information provided. Nobody but you can assess if you need and prefer a plusher surface. Your body will tell you what you need if you give it a bit of time and attention. I would not be swayed or rushed but analyze slowly and methodically each of the mattresses you are considering based on the guidelines in the mattress shopping tutorial as related to your BMI.

As for other people’s experiences in general, they won’t tell you much if anything about the suitability, quality, durability, or “value” of a mattress for any particular person (see post #13 here ), and I recommend you avoid considering them as any sort of a reliable indicator of the appropriateness of any particular product for your needs.

Larger brands and the stores that offer their products commonly rely upon the lack of information and state of confusion that they find in most consumers, and they exploit this with general marketing clichés. I recommend that you read through the material to which I’ve linked and use it as a reference and not attempt to memorize things, but learn enough to recognize a product using better quality materials or a retailer that is knowledgeable and honest so that you may trust the information you’re presented

As far as air beds go … in general terms I would tend to avoid them unless there is a very compelling reason that an airbed would be a better choice in “real life” (outside of the many “marketing stories” that you will hear about them) than the many other options or types of mattresses that are available to you. You can see some of my general comments about air mattresses here and in this article. which you already visited.

The 2" 1.5 lb polyfoam base (28 ILD) is a layer of polyfoam under the pocket coils support layer which is separate from the 4 walls of polyfoam encasement. The encasement/foam surround is much firmer than the poly base and has a wall width of 4.5 " with a density of 1.5 lb (65 ILD) Generally speaking for a normal BMI this mattress is not “bad” although I would still place a slight caution because of the top 2" of 1.5 lb polyfoam which has a bit more thickness than the guidelines I would normally suggest. Higher BMI ranges will need more durable materials and components in a mattress and for a BMI range of 30 or higher I would include any 1.8 lb (or less) polyfoam or 4 lb (or less) memory foam as a “lower quality/density” material (relative to a higher BMI only) and minimize their use to a total of “about an inch or so or less” in the mattress. This would also be a concern for the Foam encasement especially if you are one of those that sleep on the edge or sit on the side of your mattress on a regular basis, then I would use the same minimum polyfoam guidelines above for your BMI for the foam surround as well.

I would also be quite cautious with a pocket coil with your weight. Pocket coils and microcoils can be a great combination but you would need very strong coils and I think that the consensus with most manufacturers I’ve talked with is that pocket coils that would work well for most people may not be the best choice for higher weights. I think that 19 ILD would also be on the soft side. This is certainly a good quality/value choice for normal BMI but I’m not so sure it would be the best choice for you. If you did go in this direction I would want to make sure that the pocket coils were very strong (low gauge steel).

Talalay and Dunlop that are the same thickness and ILD won’t feel the same in terms of their firmness for most people because they have a different response curve and compression modulus (how quickly a material becomes firmer as you sink into it more deeply) with Talalay feeling a little softer. There is more about the difference between Dunlop and Talalay in post #7 here .

While I can certainly help with “how” to choose … It’s not possible to make specific suggestions or recommendations for either a mattress, manufacturers/retailers, or combinations of materials or components because the first “rule” of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best “match” for you in terms of “comfort”, firmness, or PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) or how a mattress will “feel” to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress), sleeping positions, health conditions, or “theory at a distance” that can possibly be more reliable than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).

The choice of materials and components is a personal preference but it’s important to make sure you choose a durable version of whatever materials you prefer. Latex (you can read more about the different types in post #6 here ), 5 lb or higher memory foam, 2 lb or higher polyfoam, and stronger innersprings with more steel or in the case of lower coil counts with lower gauge springs (around 13 gauge or lower) are all among some of the more durable materials and components that can work well for higher weight ranges. I would make sure that any lower quality foams are less than around an inch or so in a quilting layer because more than that can become the weak link in a mattress … especially for someone that is heavier (unless of course the mattress is for shorter term use or for a guest bedroom where durability isn’t as big an issue).
The best guidance I could give you isn’t “specs” at all but to encourage you to spend more time testing mattresses locally and find out what the is the type and feel of mattress you are looking for. It may be that latex is not what you like or perhaps you’ll like the feel of Talalay then spend some time on the phone with the various manufacturers or retailers that offer what you are looking for and after giving them your information see what their suggestions are for their specific designs. Their suggestions will likely be different from each other because their designs and options are different but you will get a good sense of the overall design range that may suit you best and then you could choose between them based on your level of confidence about your final choice and the options that are available after your purchase should you need it.

I hope once you have a chance to go through the few readings I linked to you’ll gain a little more direction in your research.

Phoenix

14

I had an Aruba Natural Response by King Koil and really liked it too. I contacted them be email asking for specifics and never got a response.

15

Hi Phoenix,

I guess I am a little stuck as there do not seem to be any other quality/trusted mattress stores near me where I can go test mattresses from what I can find in the forum, so I don’t know where else to try and test. Do you know of any other stores that aren’t big mattress stores in the Norfolk/Virginia Beach/Portsmouth/Chesapeake area?

I have a feeling I would like a latex that has a little more plush feel, and from what I can tell the Talalay would feel softer than the Dunlop after reading your distinctions. I am starting to look at FoamSweetFoam as they can use Talalay in their models and will get on the phone with them.

And if Latex just doesn’t work out for me, and you have stated that I need firmer steel innersprings, do you know of any of the Mattress Underground Member stores that have innersprings that are the firmer steel that I would need? (I am trying to not make you have to do a ton of research, as you’ve repeatedly stated that you can’t help me with specific mattress selections, but in terms of knowing which springs would be firmer steel or not I would be clueless and would have to literally come back with the specs of each model from your member stores and ask about each one.). The hybrid options are also probably something I will need to look into.

Also, I am going to be in NYC this weekend on a business trip and am going to try to go to Nest to try their hybrids. Is there anything you would caution me about my size and the Nest beds? Also, are there any other trusted stores in NYC (or a thread you could direct me to) that would have statistics in the safe range for a higher BMI?

Thank you for all of your help. I am not trying to be difficult, but this feels like I’m going to have to just ordering from online stores and doing trial and error that way, which is going to be a pricey endeavor.

16

I know I’m not Phoenix, but there is an old thread about some locations in the NYC area (I don’t think Phoenix updates those any longer). I copied it here for you:

After first confirming that any retailer or manufacturer on the list that you wish to visit is completely transparent (see this article ) and to making sure that any mattress you are considering meets your specific criteria and the quality/value guidelines here … the better options or possibilities I’m aware of in and around the New York City region are listed in post #2 here .

The good news is that there are a lot of different retailers in that are and if you want to try latex you should be able to find a few and sample it.

There is also a common post about general things to look for with people of a higher BMI, which I also copied here for you (apologize if you’ve already seen it):

A high BMI presents special challenges and generally requires firmer materials (in the support layers especially). This could be firmer latex or innersprings (the type of support component would be a personal preference and in the right design either could be suitable) or even a zoned construction. The same overall guidelines apply with higher weights though that PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) along with using high quality durable materials that will maintain their feel and performance for longer periods of time are the way to make the best choices. Heavier people in general will need firmer and thicker comfort layers and firmer support layers than those who are lighter and because no materials will last as long with much higher weights the quality and durability of the materials and components is even more important than normal. I wouldn’t “rule out” any types of mattress and base your choices on your own personal testing. Post #3 here has more information and suggestions about higher BMIs that is worth reading.

Hopefully this helps you out a bit and you can objectively analyze anything you’re considering using this information.

Also, here is an old post I found about Norfolk:

If you are looking for something in the Norfolk area, some of the better options and possibilities I’m aware of in the Norfolk/Hampton/Newport News area are listed in post #2 here .

You can just use the search feature of the forum to find this information if you’re looking to see if specific towns have been discussed previously. You might be surprised how many different areas are mentioned!

17

Thank you for your reply Jeff!

I had seen all of these posts, but I think the question I was trying to convey is if Phoenix knew of stores whose innerspring mattresses are supportive of my BMI. Phoenix had indicated that I need a certain type of steel, but I am not sure what that looks like when I am reading through mattress specs. I was wondering if he knew in either of those two locations (or online) of trusted companies who use that type of steel on their innerspring.

But thank you for your help :slight_smile:

18

There’s not a certain “type of steel” that you need for a high BMI. You might want to avoid some of the more basic marshall spring units, and more basic Bonnell units. Avoid single-tempered continuous coil units. If you want something really strong, look at something like the Hinge-Flex from Leggett and Platt (what I show larger individuals when they visit my store) or other knotted-double offset designs using thicker steel. Those will be quite durable for large individuals.

19

Hi Phoenix,
I was wondering if you knew if the coils in the Pure Talalay Bliss Hybrid would be the appropriate type for my BMI (low gauge steel?) and if that would be a durable bed for me. It has the springy-ness that I think I equate to comfort, but is the Latex that I probably need.

Also, I received the Winkbeds mattress-- it is incredibly firm and has been giving my back, shoulder and hip pain for the past 5 days. Hoping the break-in period comes to an end soon, but if it doesn’t start feeling significantly less firm soon then I think I am going to have to return it either way because I need something less firm. I think this means Latex is my only hope for something that is durable enough for my BMI but is something that I can customize to not be too firm.

20

Hi cbear08,

I am sorry to hear that you are experiencing pain and discomfort with your new mattress. The general consensus about Winkbeds is that it runs on the firmer side but most of the “Breaking in” will come from the from the fabric covering of your mattress, which in combination with you losing some of your learned alignment may be enough to offer you the comfort that you need and I would wait for a little longer and see how it works out for you.

Pure Talalay’s Hybrid line uses 6" lower gauge steel coils of 13.75 and 4 rows of nested coils for better edge support, which for normal BMI ranges would be more than adequate. I can’t offer any advice as to how firm this unit would be for you but I am planning to get in touch with Hickory Springs (the spring manufacturer of the springs in PTB) in the next few days to check on suitability for higher BMI and some of their specs …springs revolutions, pre-compression, etc.

PTB’s is typically “better than average” in terms of value and are certainly a much better choice (assuming the choice is the model that is most suitable for you) than the vast majority of mainstream mattresses in terms of quality and value. Talalay latex is a high-quality material no matter which manufacturer includes it in their mattress. They are also owned by the actual producer of most of the Talalay latex used in North America by many manufacturers (Latex international).

A forum search on Pure Latex Bliss (you can just click this) will bring up much more information about them including a great deal of feedback from many forum members who have purchased them.

Phoenix

21

Thank you for much Phoenix! You really are so helpful.

Would you mind also looking into the Restonic Bradham ultra pillow top? The only specs I could get in the store (Haynes Furniture) was the picture I am attaching.

I also liked the Restonics Elevate Felicity but the only one they had left was the floor model, and I am pretty sure that’s never a good option.

Thank you!!

22

After about an hour of phone calls I was finally able to get Restonics to give me specs on the Bradham. The foam layers sound durable enough if I’m understanding the tutorials well enough, but I am worried that the coils are not the right gauge of steel. Could you give me your insight into these specs:

Bradham Ultra Euro Top

1000 series coil—a wrap coil utilizing tempered steel: “marvelous middle” center third is 14/15 gauge wire, shoulder and knees regions are 15
gel memory foam— density—4 lb at 1 inch
synthetic latex–density—ILD 28-32 (in the middle)
2 inches quilted top with polyfoam—density—1.8lb

Thank you!!

23

Hi cbear08.

Based on the specs you provided the mattress you are considering has a few weak links for higher weight ranges. Please revisit the information I provided about selecting a mattress in thedurability guidelines here for BMI ranges higher than 30 section. I would place a caution on both the 1.8 lbs/ft[sup]3[/sup] polyfoam and the gel memory foam of 4 lbs/ft[sup]3[/sup]

Higher BMI ranges will need more durable materials and components in a mattress and in a BMI range of 30 or higher I would include any 1.8 lb polyfoam or 4 lb memory foam as a “lower quality/density” material (relative to a higher BMI only) and minimize their use to a total of “about an inch or so or less” in the mattress.

Polyurethane foam: If your mattress is one sided then I would look for 2.0 lb per cubic foot density or higher. If the mattress is two-sided then I would use a minimum density of 1.8 lbs per cubic foot or higher.

Memory foam (or gel memory foam): If your mattress is one sided then I would make sure that any memory foam is at least 5 lb per cubic foot. If the mattress is two-sided then I would use a minimum density of 4 lbs per cubic foot.

There are also a number of forum posts and threads about mattresses and higher weights and a forum title search on heavy (you can just click this) will bring up many of them. Some examples include post #2 here and post #2 here and this thread

Phoenix

24

Hi Phoenix,
Thank you again for being an incredible resource to me in this process! I was telling my mom about your help, and she might come on here too for help finding her own mattress :slight_smile:

I think I have determined that I am going to buy my mattress from Ken from Arizona Premium Mattress, but I have one last question that I hope you can help me with.

Let me give backstory to lead up to my question: I really loved the Pure Talalay Bliss Hybrid in plush because I tested it out for thirty minutes and never felt the hip pain that I did on the CozyPure mattress. The only problem is that the mattress is only 10" and, between that and 17" being the tallest height on an adjustable base that I can find, I am not going to reach the 30-32 inches that I need for the mattress to work with my extremely large head and footboard.

This leads me to Ken, who was SO helpful at creating a mattress concept for me-- the hybrid with two layers of 3" Talalay to create a 15" bed after we add in the height of the cover. This is perfect and is even less expensive than the PTB. I really liked Ken’s knowledge, and he was incredibly personable. However, he suggested for my weight (270) that the ILD of the layers be 28 and 32 respectively.

I am concerned that this might feel to firm for me still. My reasoning behind this is that when I went to look at the Original Mattress Factory’s talalay mattress I noticed that it felt very very similar to the PTB and didn’t bother my hip, and there were lower ILDs for each layer of latex (although it is on a high durability polyfoam core). I am attaching the specs of the OMF mattress just in case I’m misunderstanding something, but the talalay seems to be light at 16-22 ILD and 21-27 ILD respectively. However, the OMF is also only 10" and isn’t what I am looking for.

All that to say, I am thinking of asking Ken to make the Talalay layers a little lower in ILD. What affect will a lower ILD have with my BMI? What are the potential issues in asking for a lighter ILD? What is the lowest possible ILD that you would recommend for my weight? Does the fact that these will be thicker layers of talalay come into play? What ILD would you suggest?

I just would hate to order the mattress and then have to exchange a layer that might actually damage the life of the mattress, but I also don’t want hip pain and I can’t test them out. I am starting to think that I like an extreme plush feel compared to most individuals with a higher BMI based on recommendations.

Also-- do you by chance know the ILD of the PTB Hybrid talalay layers? I have called and emailed PTB and haven’t received an answer. I wonder if maybe they are actually higher ILDs and I will be more secure in going with Ken’s recommendation.

Thank you again! You really have been a life saver :slight_smile: I feel like I should send you a gift basket or something, haha.

25

Also-- just found out from PTB that the hybrid plush is a 3" ILD 14 layer with a 1" ILD 44 layer. I found this fascinating-- does the super heavy ILD have an effect of protecting the extremely light layer above it? I wouldn’t think I should go all the way down to a 14.

26

The firm 1" layer is placed under the innerspring unit. The softer 3" layer is placed atop the innerspring unit.

27

Wow. More of a reason for me to talk through ILDs since that is only a 14. Is a 3" talalay later with an ILD of 14 going to hold up to a high BMI? That is the plushness that i liked, but Ken from mattresses.net thinks that is too light and will not last more than 4 years. I am a little confused because Phoenix said that the PTB hybrid would be durable for a high BMI. When I called PTB and gave them my weight they said that it wouldn’t affect the durability and it is made for all weight ranges. I’d appreciate both of your help!